Love to be the one to Make good property decisions?

Then register for free and get exclusive, personalised benefits that will help you achieve all your money goals.

Join the lovemoney.com experience

Register Now

Confused?

Why Register?

The house price crash is over

Published 1 June 2009 in Make good property decisions

Harvey Jones celebrated when the property market crashed. But now, he's been forced to accept that a recovery is around the corner.

OK, I admit defeat. After months of arguing that a good old-fashioned house price crash is exactly what we need, I've finally accepted that it's all over.

My one-man campaign to keep house prices falling (well, a two-man campaign if you include lovemoney.com's very own Ed Bowsher) appears to have failed.

The writing has been on the wall for some time, but when Nationwide reported the property market actually rose 1.2% in May, I finally buckled.

House prices in the UK simply refuse to drop to moderate levels. Vendors are refusing to drop their prices further, buyers are starting to meet their valuations. Bricks and mortar still look shockingly expensive. It seems that we like it this way.

Ker-Tring!

I first suspected I was doomed to defeat in March, when I pressed my nose against thfe window of a cramped, two-bed Victorian cottage in a small village outside Tring, Hertfordshire. It was a humdrum end-of-terrace and I guessed it would be on the market at £220,000. It was on at £325,000.

It was a crazy price.

True, it was "only" 35 miles from London, and nobody has bought it yet, but I bet they will.

Overpaying for property is what Britons do best. It is in our genes.

I'm not a bad person

I've had mixed views calling for further house price falls. I don't want to see millions plunged into negative equity and bailiffs shoo tens of thousands out of their devalued properties.

Nor was I trying to talk down the property market, as one person suggested on these message boards, so that I could snap up a bargain with a wall of cash I don't have.

I just thought that if one good thing came out of the recession, it would be an end to house price mania, and the start of a healthier relationship towards property.

I also hoped it would give young people the prospect of buying a place of their own, rather than filling the boots of a buy-to-let landlord.

Your home, my plaything

While living in rural Suffolk a couple of years ago, I got talking to a likeable couple in their twenties who had grown up in unglamorous Leiston, which services Sizewell B power station, and earned their living in Aldeburgh, a posh seaside resort just down the coast.

They accepted they could never afford to buy in Aldeburgh, home to genteel retired dames and brash London second-homers, but were in despair at being squeezed out of their hometown by overspill second-homers. Their friends on local wages were suffering a similar fate.

Soon after, a tax consultant I knew breezily told me she was "thinking of buying in Suffolk". Not moving there - "Leave London? Are you mad!" - just buying. The spare equity in her Muswell Hill home made £150,000 for a two-bed terrace in, yes, Leiston, seem like a snip.

She thought it would be nice to stay two or three weekends a year, and make a little on the side by renting it out.

So another local couple loses the chance of buying a home to raise their kids in.

And this cruel pattern was being repeated in thousands of towns and villages across the country.

Never, never, never

So I thought a property crash would bring some benefits. I didn't want to see the younger generation mortgaged up to the hilt to fund the winners in the equity lottery. Or millions of people barred from home ownership for life.

And the young ones the only ones who were suffering. I know people in their forties who suddenly realised they had left it too late to ever buy a house if they wanted to repay off their mortgage before retirement.

The rest of us, me included, who climbed onto the property ladder at the start of the boom in 1997, were sitting pretty.

We can't help ourselves

Now it looks like that isn't going to happen. Yes, affordability has improved, but not enough. And the merest glimpse of a green shoot has got everybody dancing round like spring lambs.

Estate agents are shining their suits. Lenders are lifting their LTVs. Property developers are practising their patter. And first-time buyers are sizing up damp shoeboxes and wondering if they could stretch to £325,000.

There is a wall of pent-up demand out there. And who do I blame?  I blame us. All of us. We are property die-hards. Extremists. Obsessives.

Years of watching home makeover shows have indoctrinated us. We are crazy about property. We just can't let it go.

Between bricks and mortar and a hard place

A wider problem is that we built our entire economy on a property bubble. The Government dare not let that bubble burst, because the whole economy will go pop with it.

So we slash interest rates to levels no government has thought necessary in more than 300 years, and hang the savers.

And if anybody had been mad enough to make me Chancellor (well, somebody gave Alistair Darling the job), I would have done exactly the same thing, because the alternative doesn't bear thinking about.

Of course I could be wrong

Ed Bowsher is still keeping the faith. He claims the house price bust isn't over, and prices have another 10% to fall.

He bases his argument on the fact that unemployment is set to rise sharply, and this will trigger house price sales.

Ed is obviously made of sterner stuff than me.

Perhaps I'm just having a wobble. I remind myself that house prices enjoyed the odd monthly rise in the 1990s collapse, and there were a few weeks during the Wall Street Crash when people brightened up and said "Don't panic, it's only a blip."

But I'm beginning to fear that property in the UK is naturally over-priced. I guess there isn't enough of it for the growing population. Now we'll have to learn to live with the consequences.

To that young couple in Leiston, my apologies. At least I tried.

> Read Ed Bowsher's blog on house prices

> Read more of our Property Week articles

> Compare mortgages at lovemoney.com

Enjoyed this? Show it some love

Share this lovemoney.com content on any of the social networks and utilities below by simply clicking the site of your choice.

  • You can subscribe to all lovemoney.com articles via our RSS feed.

Comments

antonyob said

  • 0 recommendations

WAY.... to early to say

chasbmw said

  • 3 recommendations

If this the end then this will have been the quickest house price crash ever and funnily enough Cluttons put out a press release today saying that vendors should sell their houses now, before the second half of the crash begins as the rising tide of unemployment hits house prices.

I think that we are in the suckers rally, fuelled by cash rich buyers............

damicol said

  • 1 recommendation

 i have to disagree, house prices, certainly relative to income have a long way to fall yet, and the reason is clear why.

Unemployment will continue to rise another year,  Savings sufficient to finance all the mortgage demand is not there yet, nor will it be with rates so low, and the real investors , the billions of pound funds that bought bank bonds and financed the whole mortgage market to its ridiculouss peak are still withdrawing capital just as fast as everyone repays thier mortgage. And that is very unlikely to stop.

After all would you risk all your investments giving mortgages out  on overvalued properties with a distinct potential for the downside  to people who may or may not be redundant  next week for a return of around 1% per annum..

 Only if you happen to be Darling and using your very own taxpayers cash to do it i suspect.

Or totally insane.

 But even thsi scenario  pressing house prices down , will shortly be overtaken  by the absolute certainty that wages and prices of most goods will rocket in the near future beacause inflation  will come ..  no mistake  it will come with avengeance and  the house prices will not be rising as fast as inflation

So it could just be getting to be the right time to buy... but you need to time it  for eactly the moment inflation starts takes off , and then be sure you can afford a mortgage at 12% or more  if you cant get a very long term fixed rate

Swarbs said

  • 0 recommendations

Harvey, Harvey. You've fallen into the amateur's trap of seeing the 'property market' as any other market. There are numerous different factors at work and, as antonyob says, it's way to early to tell. Most of the rapid falls to date have been driven by developers selling off completed properties to anyone who can afford them, at massive discounts of around 25-50%. The majority of the existing housing stock simply hasn't been sold - unless people have to sell they won't accept low offers.

In the future, who knows. As damicol says, redundancy and rising interest rates may cause another 90s esque crash right after this one. However, at the same time the fact that most house builders aren't building, and have sold all their excess stock, will take a huge amount of supply out of the market, so demand and supply may both fall at the same time. When that happens all bets are off. To use (arguably massacre) a well known quote, it's not the end, its not the beginning of the end, but it is the end of the beginning.

  • 0 recommendations

This is a deadcat bounce.  We still have unemployment and higher interest rates to come.  And when the second wave comes, lenders will start tightening their lending criteria further; lending is still far looser than it was twenty years ago and yet the risks haven't changed significantly.

I am a first time buyer and am about to exchange on a house so I'm not talking the market down.

hubbers said

  • 2 recommendations

This is an woefully bold headline for a website that supposedly knows a thing or two about money.

All previous house  price crashes have has months where the prices have risen long before the crash ends.

I predict at minimum there is another 15+ drop. If I am correct and Harvey Jones is wrong can I have his job?

nickpike said

  • 2 recommendations

HOORAY. I'm off to join the queues streching out of the Estate Agents. I'm rushing out NOW to buy a house. Bear in mind there is a shortage of houses, we live on a tiny, overcrowded island, interest rates are very low and will stay this low for 25 years and I can sense the pent up demand from here. It's making the hairs on the back of neck quiver.

I was really getting quite worried that Estate Agents weren't getting their very fair thousands for sticking an advert in their window, that surveyors weren't getting paid hundreds to drive by a property to value it, and solicitors were having to look for more divorce work due to repossessions.

I'm glad that the old will benfit from the young. Who needs FTBs anyway?

NOW is a great time to buy. Quick, before you miss out as prices are about to rocket.

I'm off to get a cheap mortgage. Are they back to 100% LTV and 10 times wages yet.

nickpike said

  • 0 recommendations

OR

Mr Harvey Jones, is this a wind-up???

Paulr said

  • 0 recommendations

Well its definately over in my part of the world. Sold signs going up everywhere and according to local estate agents the difference between the asking price and the sale price is getting narrower by the month.

Throughout history property has always recovered and is still the best investment anyone can make.

On top of that we all need somewhere to live and the population is growing.

As Mark Twain said "Reports of my death have been greatly exagerated"!! 

eftpotrm said

  • 1 recommendation

I'm 30, I rent a smallish flat in a very average town about as far out from London as you could class as commuter belt - we don't have much of a commuter effect and the town itself isn't anything special. Homes aren't all that dear compared to many other towns.

I'm a graduate with a pretty good job that's pretty secure and am getting a pretty good wage, certainly above average. I've got two years salary (roughly) as deposit and costs etc and am looking to buy, though even after supposedly dire falls it's not far off either a house with a view of the police going about their business with the neighbours night after night or very high repayments.

All of which inevitably gets me thinking. I fundamentally like the UK and Europe - aside from family and friends, it's nice to have so much available within easy reach, far more than in most of the US - and the weather, much as we whinge, is for most of the year comfortable enough. But if I can afford three times the home by emigrating while still getting a decent job and quality of life, why should I stay?

If we can't get this obsession with high house prices out of our national system, if we can't learn to accept that there's no fundamental reason why prices should stay above the long-term levels forever, I foresee a major brain drain - a good percentage of those looking to start in adult life will simply conclude it's just as nice overseas, but half the cost, leaving us with the old and the poor. Oops.

frenchy said

  • 0 recommendations

The market still has a way to go. The economy will get worse before the end of the year, unemployment will rise, and inflation will increase. Best to start looking in Easter 2010

cyranose said

  • 0 recommendations

I think you'll find the national mindset will change over the next few months, as the political watershed moment arrives in the form of June elections, Brown is persuaded to step down or an early general election is called (or both).  A radical new start in many areas will bring in a 'feel good' mood and off we'll go on the good old property carousel again. Unemployment will rise , but affect mostly the 18 to 25 age group - and they're not exactly in the property market.  I've just had 3 new enquiries on a property I put on the market  18 months ago.  We'll see! 

sparkie said

  • 1 recommendation

I am with Ed Bowsher! In fact I would go further! There is a simple unassailable fact ... the housing market is strangled unless new buyers feed in from the bottom. In the South West of England, the "normal" salaries ranges from  £15000 - £20000 p.a., if they are lucky!

So using "sensible" multiples of income of 3x to 3.5 times annual income, that means such an income yields a mortgage in the region of £70000 max!

You can't buy a phone box for that.

And if the bottom of the market can't get in, the middle can't move up!

Of course, there are always SOME people who can buy ... but most are at the upper end of the price range which always moves no matter what the economic weather.

There is still worse to come in this recession. More unemployment. More reposessions, lots more. Higher inflation. Then will come higher interest rates leading to more repossessions still. The Buy-to-Let bubble has burst already. Yes, people from London etc., will buy up homes in the South West etc., but there aren't enough people like that to sustain a market.

So I believe the market has a long way to go. If you have a property and there is a short window open for you to sell it, I would say go for it while it lasts! Hang onto it and you will lose big time!

We should have a prize for who is right?  Are lovemoney.com prepared to put up a prize?  :)

Les  :)

Midboy said

  • 0 recommendations

Harvey Jones celebrated when the property market crashed. but now, he's been

forced to accept that a recovery is around the corner.

He says OK, I admit defeat. Yes  After months of arguing that a good

old-fashioned house price crash is exactly what

we need, he`s finally accepted that it's all over.

My one-man campaign to keep house prices falling

(well, a two-man campaign if you include

lovemoney.com's very own Ed

Bowsher) appears to have failed.

They were not the only doom and gloom merchants around , there are many whom

have this agenda with a  purpose to devalue us all.....

I told you so !!  These people know nothing,  they bring the country down all

the time with there negative thoughts  .... and we/you believe them?   

....don`t listen to there so call expertise , they themselves usually have

hidden agendas for themselves ...to cash in.......Don`t listen to them  ..!! 

The way some of these people go around devaluing our lives and our life's hard

work , they are the source of  any downfall

If you want to think of your children tomorrows then don`t let these

merchants devalue what you have already achieved....

Go get your property , your dream. for whatever purpose , to live in,  to

rent out , whatever !   so long as we invest into it and have proper

regulation,  there will always be a good value in it...

The only value that for any of us we can trade with...for any future that we

may have .. You can trade your property into all other forms of dreams,

business`s and creativity and all this before our own demise from his earth  

The only legacy that will surely remain are better and more valued property

for others to occupy in the future and the dream goes on .. We want to Live!,

 it what its all about !

Forget your calculators , follow your heart and dreams for there to be any

future .... and don`t worry too much either , if it all fails for you , there

will be  plently of  good rented property for you out there so you won`t go

without shelter ..... and you can still achieve a good life .....What a Life !

we have in this country.... fantastic!

ckm4328 said

  • 0 recommendations

I think we are on the road to recovery, if I'm wrong you can all say "I told you so later".

All my files which were sitting gathering dust waiting for the property to sell are now back on my desk with sale proceeds flooding into our client account.

My conveyancing collegues monthly figures are slowly rising and I have seen job adverts for conveyancing solicitors. Unless something drastic happens to the money supply from lenders recovery will be clear by the first half of 2010.

I just don't see our obsession with property ownership ever ending the phrase "You don't want to through money away renting" is ingrained in several generations and it will take more than the last years events to change that.

I think the trouble with those who keep predicting a big crash here is that they look at property ownership as any other investment but it isn't. There is a big emotional attachment to property on which you can't put a price.

Unfortunately most people do not apply cold hard logic to property purchases.

ckm4328 said

  • 0 recommendations

I think Midboy proves my point if he's not being ironic in which case said irony supports my point.

Twoflower said

  • 3 recommendations

I am now 29 and I'm degree educated (in a sensible subject I might add), debt laden because of it, and earn the same amount in real terms as my dad did at my age - which would have been considered a respectable wage before this crazy housing boom. When my mother got pregant with me my dad bought a nice 2 bed house, with room for extension, with a nice garden in the countryside on his wage alone. My mother didnt work as she looked after me until I was old enough to go to school.

That same house now where I grew up recently sold for 15 times my wages (it has had an extension to make it a 3 bed, but come on!). We dont have a hope in hell of being to provide for our children what our parents could for us. I have recently discovered I am pregnant and now myself and partner are stressed beyond belief and having to seriously consider our "options" as without both our constant full time incomes we cannot afford the rent and bills on our house - which is a 2 bed terrace in a pretty rough area. As I am the main bread winner, this is made even harder. Our only option would be to go on benefits – then we can look forward to being classed as 2nd class citizens and worthless layabouts.

People always say “its not a right to own your own houses”. Well I would argue that any animal has a right to find shelter, but thats a different argument. I’m not even talking about buying here – because of the piggy-eyed obsession with BTL the renting prices have near on tripled in recent years as the rental yields have to cover the mortage costs for these so called investors (I say so called because real investors understand that investing is a risk, not your god given right to just buy a property because you were lucky enough to have the equity to do so, and never be subjected to losses).

I did everything I was told was “a good idea”. I worked hard, got good results in my degree, got the “good” job. And for what? Hard work, education, all the things that should be valued in a society are considered as worthless – greed, dishonesting and a complete lack of regard for anyone else is obviously the way forward.

So for all you baby boomers out there that are swigging champagne, celebrating your enormous false profits. While you are wondering  which area you will vulture in on next, forcing local people out there ancestural homes, well me I’m having to contemplate killing my unborn child because my country has decided that my generation, however hard they work do not deserve a home to raise a family.

Maitri said

  • 2 recommendations

The world seems to be going mad today a bit of sunshine and everyone seems to forget that the UK went bankrupt trying to support an inflated property bubble. Economists agree that until approvals double property prices will keep falling yet how can approvals double without property values falling much further when lending levels are down nearly 2/3rds with the closure of the RMBS market, a market not likely to open for years and even then never in the way that fueled the bubble. Rightmove / Hometrack Nationwide they are ALL saying that propety is ONLY showing increases because of lack of supply if the supply increased prices would start falling again. Even now they affirm that there is a BIG difference between ASKING and SELLING prices the difference is about 30% between RM's average asking and Halifax and Nationwide's selling. 30% off a £300000 property gives a value of £210000. The 30% figure is NOT  fantasy, lenders are valuing at 30% down and up to 40% for remortgage, RICS said in March they thought the Nationwide and Halifax figures were wrong and that 30% falls had already occured. So why are people starting to believe a dead cat bounce? How can we be any where near a return to 2007 lending levels when they not only broke the banks but left the country bankrupt ? Lenders are now going to have to lend on deposits as they did pre 2001 and the RMBS market, deposits are falling due to low interest rates and Moodys downgrades based on the "assumption now being 40% falls". There is a £200bn shortfall in mortgage lending , little wonder that both the CML and BOE have said "the green shoots have no roots."

BM said

  • 1 recommendation

The crash was caused by reckless lending as new financial derivatives and lax regulation allowed bankers to increase leverage in the economy to more and more stupid levels while the government turned a blind eye.

To keep the bubble growing it was necessary to lend to worse debts. this was clearly unsustainable and so it proved.

Thing is the banking system is nothing like going back to where is was before and it seems very unlikely that they will do so. its clear they did not know how to price these new products correctly and even the investment banks are not going to trade an asset they can't price.

So with the banks scaling back lending house prices will inevitably fall. MBS issuance is back to 2001 levels with no signs of recovery.

Making real money on house price purchases in incredibly difficult timing is everything. Assuming financing at 5% if you buy a house and increases 10% you make 5% if it falls 5% you loose 15%. So 3 years of rises can be wiped out in one year of falls.So you have to be pretty sure an up trend is in place before buying, and one month does not constitute an up trend.

The real economy seems to unlikely to recover soon. Indeed given the debt Labour is currently saddeling us with economic growth will likely be sluggish for years to come, while quantitative easing will likely to leas to inflation and higher rates. So stagflation not good news for the propestive home buyer. That if it works! Worst case scanario we end up like Japan a 1 bed flat in Tokyo bought be a colleague of mine cost circa £350k at the top of the book ite woth circa £200k now more than 10 years later.

If you have to buy for a growing family or whatever then fair play if you are buying as an investment then get ready for disappointment.

prometheus said

  • 0 recommendations

Well if the PS debt requires as much in tax rises as some commentators suspect perhaps there will be rather less London (or perhaps anywhere else) second home owners in the future, or buy to let landlords either maybe?

Property may not be like a typical market but I bet it still succumbs to governmental interference just like any other.

  • 1 recommendation

It is a truism in most markets that a price rise (or fall) cannot be relied upon unless it is supported by a significant volume of trading. I don't see the property market being any different. There is currently thin volume and all that has happened recently is that some people have got the spring-time nesting instinct, as they do every year. If anyone is going to stick their neck out on property at all this year, it's going to happen around now. I just hope they don't regret it.

Even if we do see consistent nominal increases in prices over the next few months, I would regard that as a timing anomaly. After the coming bout of inflation (with which house prices will not keep up), you will see that there has been the 50% peak-to-trough fall (in real terms) that many people have predicted on affordabilty grounds.

See you in spring 2014 for a review of prognostications vs outturns?

wannabe said

  • 0 recommendations

Is this the best financial analysis lovemoney has to offer?

matchmade said

  • 0 recommendations

Pod - where's your evidence that rental prices have *tripled* in your area in recent years? I've been renting out property for twelve years in south-east England for 12 years and rents have barely kept pace with inflation over that period. The house I first bought for myself - renting out three bedrooms to lodgers to pay my way - is currently up for rent for only £100 a month more than when I first let it out, and the landlord now includes bills, which means tenants are paying significantly less in real terms than they were in 1996, yet the landlord's capital (her money and the mortgage) are much higher.

Real rates of return on rental property have been dropping steadily for ten years - just ask the National Landlords Association. Rents in comparison with the cost of property ownership are a *bargain* when you factor in all the maintenance costs, the need to provide furniture, carpets and so on, never mind the cost of covering a mortgage which goes up and down like a yo-yo, and the current house price crash is destroying all gains made since at least 2004.

The reason your parents' house costs so much more is because the country is in general much wealthier, so more people have more surplus capital to invest, and because the tax system is skewed in favour of property. If the government started taxing capital gains on principal residences, as it did before 1965, this would take a lot of wind out of future housing bubbles! Further reasons are a lack of supply for new housing, due to our crazily restrictive planning laws and the high price of new housing due to all the legislation now foisted on builders (typical build price is now £1000 a square metre, so a small three-bedroomed house like your parents' costs, say, £110,000 just to build, never mind the cost of the land and all the development costs and local taxes). In addition, the longsuffering UK citizen invests in property for a very good reason - all other investment types are highly risky and the average punter can't control their own fate. Pensions were exploded years ago; unit trusts have ridiculously high compound charges; bonds give very poor returns, barely more than cash. Where are people meant to put their spare money? At least with property it's something people understand and they can improve through their own efforts.

Finally, I'd suggest you lose that chip on your shoulder about baby-boomers. Anyone born in 1945 and retiring in 2010 at 65 will have seen massive recessions and house price crashes that you could never dream of. How about the sterling crises of the 1960s? How about the oil price hikes and a 70% crash in the stock market and house prices around 1975? How about the Three Day Week? How about the savage recession of the early 1980s, and the long-drawn out recession from 1989-2000, when it took *11 years* for house prices to recover to their 1989 levels in real terms?

I bought my first (beaten-up) house when I was 30 years old, in 1992. I couldn't afford to live in it, so I rented it out to three students and lived in rental accommodation myself. I added central heating and a new kitchen, completely redecorated it, and slowly, slowly, as I saved my earnings and a series of students helped with the mortgage in exchange for the privilege of living in the house (which they didn't look after properly), and the country dug itself out of the 1990s recession and house prices started to rise, I was eventually able to be able to afford to move into my house and then start to climb the property ladder. You just have to do the same thing, so if it means borrowing money from family, or getting a loan for a car and using the money to increase your deposit, or buying a beaten-up property that's bigger than you need and having to share the house with some lodgers as well as your new baby for a few years, that's what it takes. Millions of people have done it in the past and I don't see why you should be any different just because you've swallowed the lie that all you have to do is go to university and get a "good" job and everything will be handed to you on a plate.

  • 1 recommendation

Complete rubbish.  Stop talking things up, and accept whats going on in the REAL WORLD. The only property that seems to be moving in my part of Shropshire is low end of the market.

Yorkstyke said

  • 1 recommendation

Before the vested interests start getting orgasmic at the prospects of prices going up, lets get one thing clear.

If prices have stopped falling, (which I personally doubt), no way are we going to see a return to the lunacy of the past few years.

Rising unemployment, low wage growth and, the killer punch, rising interest rates before the general election regardless of whatever tricks Crash and Badger try to pull, will well and truly stuff the housing market for some considerable time.

russpw100 said

  • 0 recommendations

Well I am praying that the slide is over! - Like thousands of others who were on the verge of retirement, I have had to defer this for at least another 5 years - due to 1) the state of the market, 2) the decline in the value of my pension (down 30%!) , 3) the pathetic returns on my meagre savings and now 4) the loss of equity built up over the years (which would have been the ONLY remaining means for me to retire to a smaller home and being comfortable in my twilight years). Anyone like me who has only purchased goods when they could afford them (NOT on credit) and who has paid their taxes all their lives and has never claimed a penniy of the state, who hasbeen let down by the scroungers, the layabouts and the downright stupidty/greed of the government and legal system to boot. I am NOT a property speculator - no, I am merely someone (of whom there are thousands) who has scrimped and saved to ensure they were never a burden on the rest of the country and yet we are now kicked in the stomach when we are down!

Johnny5 said

  • 0 recommendations

you have a very good point and indeed there will be a brain drain but it will be held back by the fact that most Brit's only chance of earning a living are in English speaking countries owing to the fact that as a nation we have proved ourselves useless at learning foreign languages, thereby hindering any chance of getting any kind of professional work in the EU.

So it's the UK for most whether they like it or not ! Or can get visa's for Oz or Canada....

Consequently those that are staying are going to need a gaffe here !

Deutschunterricht vielleicht ?

prometheus said

  • 0 recommendations

nien.

However now is a good time to get those builders in, we just got a quote and have accepted it to rebuild a grade II listed stable. 50% of quote from 2 years ago!

prometheus said

  • 0 recommendations

Thinking about getting the moat cleaned while we're at it - not on expenses ;)

oldhenry said

  • 0 recommendations

It is called' whistling up the wind', just what you would expect from a bunch of sharp suited ****** agents. Nobody will buy unless they are desperate to get away from awful neighbours , or districts ,at the moment. These increases are based on asking prices, what a joke. What is the deal price? They won't tell you, but you find out in three months time.

  • 3 recommendations

Sounds like Harvey's been speaking to too many deluded estate agents.

Let's take a slightly broader view of the economy.

1) The only people that are buying houses at the moment are foreign investors and other cash buyers who can afford to pay the current asking prices. In order for house prices to rise any appreciable amount, you need a huge number of buyers. The buy to let market has all but dried up, so not many potential landlords will be buying. There are only so many foreign investors, and only a small number of cash buyers. But there are many POTENTIAL first-time buyers. You need a huge number of first-time buyers to buy in a small period of time, in order for prices to rise. If a first-time buyer wants a mortgage, they need a steady job, a big deposit and excellent credit rating. How many first-time buyers do you know who meet those requirements?

2) Banks' balance sheets are crippled with toxic debts that are very difficult to value and therefore sell. They also have record low amounts of operating capital. At the same time, regulators such as the FSA are increasingly calling for banks to increase their capital tier 1 ratios. What this means is that banks cannot afford to lend money for mortgages on the scale that is required to support mass house buying, and therefore rising housing prices.

3) The yields on UK treasury bonds are creeping up. This is significant, because the UK government has a mountain of debt to sell in the form of treasury bonds, and the yields on 30 year bonds are used to set the lending rate between banks, and ultimately the mortgage rates at which banks will lend to consumers. As these rates rise, homeowners' interest payments rise. At the moment, these bonds are being purchased by a) the Bank of England, using freshly printed money, and b) foreign investors. Problem is, you can only print so much money before inflation kicks in, and foreign investors are increasingly wary of buying debt from bankrupt Britain. At some point, the treasury will find it impossible to sell-off the huge amount of bonds that it needs to sell to bank roll Britain's debt. When this happens, the government has two options. OPTION A: print more money in an attempt to devalue the debt through inflation. This inflation will cause consumer prices to rise massively. Food, petrol, clothes, you name it. OPTION B: raise interest rates to offset the inflation, and make government debt more attractive to foreign investors (due to higher bond yields). Guess what happens to overstretched home owners in either of these scenarios? Bigger bills. Either your food, petrol and utilities will be (massively) more expensive, or your mortgage interest will be more expensive. This is not a possible or a maybe, this is fact. Going forward, one of these inevitable outcomes will hit homeowners like a ton of bricks, forcing more sales and therefore lower house prices. It might not happen till next year, but it will happen.

4) In the US, there are several forthcoming waves of Adjustable Rate Mortgage resets in the pipeline. A rate reset is when a homeowner comes off their honeymoon period of a very low interest rate, and moves onto a standard variable rate, which will be much higher. These resets can occur on a mass scale if you have many borrowers coming to the end of their honeymoon periods, all at the same time. This means that all of a sudden, tens of thousands of people cannot afford their mortgage payments, causing defaults and mass sell-offs. We've already experienced much of this for the sub-prime market. We're about to experience a similar situation for many different types of borrower, including "Option ARM", "Alt-A ARM", "Prime ARM", and "Agency ARM". These types of borrower are not as risky and therefore not as vulnerable to an interest rate change as a sub-prime borrower, but a lot of carnage is expected. Remember that this affects the UK banks too, because they are still heavily exposed to this mortgage debt that they purchased from the US banks in the form of various securities. So if a US homeowner defaults on their mortgage payments, the UK banks suffer.

5) Unemployment is still rising. While ever this is the case, any improvement in the housing market will be marginal. Also, even once unemployment figures do start improving, it will take months and months for the impact to filter through to the housing market.

6) If you compare the current average UK house price to long-term indicators of real value, such as gold and silver prices, it is very clear that houses are still very overpriced. This ratio matters.

7) If you compare the current average UK house price to the FTSE 100 index over the last 30 years, it is clear that, historically, houses are still very overpriced. This ratio matters.

8) If you compare the current average UK house price to the average UK salary, it is clear that houses are still very overpriced.  This ratio matters.

9) This is not like the last major housing recession of the early 1990s. This is a public and private balance sheet recession. In other words, both consumers and lenders are going bankrupt SIMULTANEOUSLY. This is unprecedented in recent history.

These are all inescapable and solid reasons why house prices will continue to fall over the next year or two (and possibly even longer).

MrRee said

  • 0 recommendations

I suspect Mr Harvey Jones has just bought, with cash, a little terrace in Suffolk and now wants the market to spiral ;-)

Affordability may have improved, but not yet to the long term average levels.

And this time around there is another fly in the ointment - an effective pay freeze! House prices increase 'generally' in line with wages .... if these refuse to move up then I cannot see house prices.

As someone says above, the cash rich who are suffering from low interest rate returns are ploughing their money into property in the hope it will make big gains. When these dry up I fear we will see another drop.

peepobaby said

  • 0 recommendations

It's June 1st, not April 1st

Twoflower said

  • 2 recommendations

@matchmade.

You make it sound so easy. You actually illustrate my point very well. You say it was really hard for you to buy a home in the early 90's when you were 30 and I do believe it was difficult for you and a struggle. But back then the average house price to earnings ratio was nearer 3 - 4 times. Now it is around 6x. So if you found it difficult to get a deposit together and buy a house back then, please try and imagine how hard it is now. The bar has been raised even higher.

I would love to be able to borrow money from my family, but my father died when I was 14 and my mother does not have much as my father died with quite a lot of debt. I also have 2 brothers so that makes it even more impossible - she simply does not have the money to help 3 children get on the property ladder.

Taking out a loan for a car to bump out a deposit is just a stupid suggestion - if we would struggle to pay the rent then how the hell would we afford the mortage (150k house, cheapest 2 beds in my area, is 6 times my earnings so I wont even get the loan in the first place) and also a couple of hundred quid a month for the "car loan deposit". I am actually one for not living beyond my means.

For you to suggest that I am expecting everything handed to me on a plate is just plain offensive. If you actually read my post I said that without both my and my partner with constant full time wages we cannot afford the rent on a 2 bed house. THE RENT, not buying.

And yes in my area the rents have gone up massively. The flat my boyfriend used to rent for £250 a month is now rented for £600, which is almost 2.5 x what it was. In my post I said "near on trippled", which I think 2.5 x could be classed as "near on trippled".

And as for telling me "just because you've swallowed the lie that all you have to do is go to university and get a "good" job and everything will be handed to you on a plate". Well your generation was my generations parents - you told us the lie, we were too young to know any better and now you are berating us for believing the lie you told? Nice.

If you lie to people then I think they have a right to be fairly annoyed about it.

I also dont think that wanting to able to afford to rent a modest 2 bed house to raise a family at the age of 30 is "expecting everything on a plate".

And what pray would you have us do if hard work and education does not pay off? Is the lesson to be learnt here that if you dont have a well off family to help you out then you are destined to have nothing? Is it just a case of shut up, get on with working and paying your taxes and dont expect a dam thing in return?

And I do not have a "chip on my shoulder about baby boomers". For the people in that generation who had their family homes and saved for their pensions and have now been punished for saving and not living recklessly I feel really sorry for. What I have a chip on my shoulder about is a society that rewards reckless behaviour and greed, helping the rich to get richer and the poor get poorer.

I'm sorry for listening to the lie that I should behave like a good citizen and get educated and work hard. In hindsight it was very silly of me. I should have done what a kid in my area did - he sold class A drugs tax free for a couple of years, made easily enough for a deposit for a house then leveraged that to buy more houses and now he is very rich.

Well if I do have the baby at least I know what lessons I need to teach him/her in the future.

 

Barbie said

  • 0 recommendations

A big reason for the increase in house prices is because lenders will now lend on this basis of two people's incomes.  When we bought our first house 40 plus years ago only my husband's income was included, as was usual at the time.  This severely restricted the amount of money available for house purchases and property was therefore more affordable for individuals who were buying on their own.  If you work it out - say two people earn £30,000 pa then there is £60,000 available, x 3 = £180,000, at which price it is possible to buy a two bed flat or terraced house in many parts of the country.  The unfortunate downside is that for someone trying to buy on their own this price is unaffordable, and it also means that mothers are not able to stay at home to look after their children even if they want to because of their financial commitments.

Pod - if you have a child and are on a low income I think the state will help you with rent - it is worth asking. 

XrayEye said

  • 0 recommendations

House prices according to Halifax BS did similar thing in January too. Why do you suddenly start talking up the market with this 2nd anomaly?

Like a few have said, maybe the wife's nagging you and you're desperate to buy again but don't want to be trapped in neg equity.

Yet again, I'll say 'I've not been wrong yet but there's always a first time', this time to the fact that most of the sensible people have also clocked on to:

Unemployment will rise A LOT.

Wages will stay low THANKS TO CHEAP LABOUR.

Single people are still priced out in most areas THANKS TO DUAL INCOMES OVERBOOSTING PRICES (when these people start buying, prices will have bottomed out)

.....................................................

There has just been the annual 'Spring-boost' which may even carry on to next months figures too, but then after that all the 'experts' (including Harvey 'The Rabbit') will say they all knew the market was going to fall again and they can't see prices rising again before next spring! MMW (Mark my words!)

I believe Harvey thinks that the 1st of every month you try to (motley) fool everybody!

Will I be wrong with my predictions at last? I doubt it ;-)

Ian329 said

  • 0 recommendations

I am fed up listening to people saying the young ones cannot get on the property ladder. The reason is they are not ready to sacrifice other things in order to do it.

My first flat was bought for £13,500 around 1975. I had to sell my car to get the deposit. At the time I was earning £50 a week, around £2400 a year. I had to plead with Halifax building society to get 2.5 times my annual salary which did not reach the amount I needed. A letter from my company saying I got regular overtime, 2 nights late and a Sunday convinced Halifax to give me the mortgage.

The next 3 years tied me into working and getting the bus. No holidays to speak of. The last week of the month I had to stay in my flat as I could usually not afford to go out.

I am not saying life was tough. I still had fun and enjoyed my new found freedom. I just to live within my means.

I now have the luxury lifestyle. £350,000 house, semi retired at 55 with holidays in the Far East 2 or 3 months a year. So it can be down, you just have to sacrifice some things early on in your life.

Today the young ones want the house, new car, holidays, constant nights out, etc. Moaning about them not being able to get on the housing ladder.

Get out, work, save and sacrifice some of lifes luxuries when you are younger. They come later in life if you sort yourself out earlier on.

  

       

Johnny5 said

  • 0 recommendations

I had a really good read over all these posts and there is real mixed opinion probably slightly in favour of property doomsters. Yes i am going to use the word doomster because in so many posts on the negative side it comes across that the negative view is entrenched and although in many cases quotes valid statistics they only use the negative ones available.

I have read these posts to get other's opinion's and judge what may be occuring in the market.

Most of the negative camp totally ignore the fact (as I have been saying for some time) that more and more money is coming on song for mortgages. the LTV's are increasing as are the range of products. Here on the fool, there was until recently only the Mortgage Works offering BTL. Have a look now....Banks are making more money on residential loans than they ever have regardless of low rate(probably because of). That's why they are pliing in.

Yes unemployment is a major concern as are other factors correctly quoted. Rising rates in the future are also a concern.

However forget the Brit love affair with property at your peril. We mainly don;t want to rent, we want to buy. It's just part of our national physche. In a time of record loan rates, fallen prices, increased affordability, lack of stock(many just won't sell) and the short termism of human nature, mean I feel any way but stabilised or upwards(slowly) is the result as there are mainly upward pressures now outweihing the downward.

Sorry Doomster's if you can;t balance the negative with the positive then you are making emotional ill judged arguments. What does make me laugh because i think it's so foolish is how many property critics after quoting totally negative facts then go on to say" they know". Actually no you don't, an outcome is not guaranteed until it has happened. Nobody knows for sure, you can make a judgement call based on a fair assesment of the situation and that's it. And many are even making a fair assesment.

The property market is also not a stok market, people want homes to live in as well as to prove a good long terms investment. In the long run houses will outperform and make up any fall plus provide you an abode and avoid paying rent.

ckm4328 said

  • 0 recommendations

@Ian329 You say you had to borrow just over 2.5 times your salary perhaps 3 times.

Many young people like myself had to borrow 4 times. Therefore you saying people aren't prepared to sacrifice is simply a groundless generalisation. You were no worse off than any young person now.

I always find it odd people saying they are better or worse off than someone in the past future. It is all relative.

@Pod have you looked at all the schemes available in your area and the various tax breaks you will receive. Does your work place provide you with child care vouchers etc.

The local housing association part buy, part rent scheme may help. Often the rental part is well below market rate. Also there is the open market home buy here the government will lend the additional amount of purchase on the open market at a very low rate.

Talk to the Citizens advice beureux and get the full picture before you make any decision. It might be hard but I see no reason why in your circumstances and the various schemes available you should not be able to manage.

@Everyone I am surprised with all the apparent knowledge about that when someone posts with a solveable problem that no one thinks it appropriate to suggest solutions. I am disappointed!

ckm4328 said

  • 1 recommendation

@Pod if you want to get a full set of suggestions for your situation post on the Q&A. There are loads of helpful people there who will be able to suggest solutions to your problem.

debtwagon said

  • 0 recommendations

Back in October at the start of the credit crunch, I predicted a house price boom, on the same grounds that Cliff d'Arcy had been predicting a house price crash for six years and would sooner or later be vindicated.  However, I also qualified it by saying I wasn't sure when it would happen.  Well, I don't think this is it.  Doesn't property traditionally rise a bit during the first quarter, with the feelgood factor of impending sunshine and holidays, babies and the consequent need for an extra bedroom?  We may well see falls again during the holiday months and into the autumn.  There's probably a bit of trading down going on as well.  I've been out of work now for five months and every month my savings drop by another grand with each mortgage instalment.  I can see another kind of brick wall in the distance, with "REPOSSESSION" daubed on it.  If we could have rampant inflation for a while but with a legislative cap on house prices and government assistance for struggling mortgage payers, that might do the trick by raising wages to a third of the average house price, diluting the mortgage debt and at the same time keeping struggling homeowners in situ.  Yes, it's a big if, so I'll finish on a brighter note: I predict a house price boom!  Just not sure when.

debtwagon said

  • 0 recommendations

Pod

I hope you're not seriously considering an abortion to avoid a housing problem.  Surely it can't be that bad?  You would never forgive yourself.

sparkie said

  • 0 recommendations

Those who criticise people who say the market will continue to be bad call them "negative". Thats as maybe, but the other people, talking the market up are flogging a dead horse as well as being irresponsible!

Oh I can hear the unspoken words, when they are saying "jump in for whatever reason, buy, invest! etc., ... what they are really saying is "please start buying again I have paid a lot for my properties and don't want to lose out!".

I can understand people not wanting to lose out. But pretending there are endless "green shoots" everywhere (that appear to be invisible to everyone else) in the hope of conning people into buying when the market is still bad is nothing short of deception.

Even if talking up the market succeeded, it would only signal the next short term boom before the inevitable even bigger crash! And now I can almost hear the mutters, "yeah mate, but by then, hopefully, I will have sold off my properties at a nice profit and legged it".

Talking up a dead market is immoral and irresponsible. We have so many "experts" telling us that the worst is over and the recovery is underway. Experts? What are they? Well, "Ex" is something that has been and "spert" is a drip under pressure!

And always, these experts always turn out to be someone with a vested interest; people involved in the building or selling of property! People desperate to breathe life into the BTL corpse.

If these people are such experts, why didnt they see any of this coming?  I did and I am no expert!!

It is basically very simple. Spend more than you have and you'll go bust. Pay more for a house than it is worth and you will lose money.

My advice would be, sit back and wait. Prices are still falling and prices will continue to fall. Despite the "experts" trying to "prove" otherwise by scouring the country for an anomaly they can then hold up as the norm and proclaim as the start of a huge boom!  

If you don't buy now, prices will soon be back where normal sensible people want them. If we follow the experts, will be back here soon with another set of "who'd have thought it" victims.

sparkie said

  • 0 recommendations

... And Pod ... I agree entirely with you; your post was beautifully expressed.

One day, we will get back to common sense (how's that for optimism?!). When a house will cost a sensible sum, covered by the income of 3 times one of the partner's income. (well yes, they may want a family so it is only sensible to take into account one partner's salary!)

I know that fills the greedy "developers" and "Buy to Let entrepreneurs" hearts with dread, but it has to happen, or else we will ALL end up living in state-funded rental properties, paid for by the only people who have any money left, the property speculators!  Wouldn't that be justice?!

Sit tight Pod ... the politicians and a few of the bankers are starting to get their come-uppance (unfortunately, so far mainly the front line workers have been punished), but there are many real culprits yet to fall!

So Good Luck Pod ... your time and that of millions like you, is yet to come!

  • 0 recommendations

As much as I have symathy for Pod. life isn't fair and unfortunately it's a case of making your own decisions to improve your lot. The worst thing pod could do is listen to Sparkie becaue if she does she'll expect things to come to her, get easier whether to rent or to buy. I doubt this will happen. Please go out and make your own luck Pod, your only enemy is inertia which is exactly what Sparkie is encouraging.

Sparkie is another one who "knows" when actually he doesn't. Has he ever bought a house ? i suspect not, just has a major downer on anybody from BTL Landlords to property Developers and most likely homeowners. It;s a tough call in this market to predict anything with any degree of certainty, people like "Sparkie" who "know" are to my mind not one's to listen to. they call it as they want it and ignore the realities that don;t suit them.

Good Luck Pod...my suggestion is improve your lot by looking for higher paid employment...not easy but i t can be done...re-define yourself as many before you have. You are in the prime of your life to do this !

sparkie said

  • 0 recommendations

staintuneriderzwei,

Your arrogance is breathtaking!  And you assume far too much!  It is none of your business, but for your information, yes I have bought a house. Three houses in fact. And I am NOT advocating that Pod waits for

things to come to her either. In any event, Pod appears to be willing to do everything that she can to improve her lot. It is your notion that if she doesn't have the basics in life, despite being ripped off, then she cannot be working hard enough. Pod seems already to me, to be as your rather inane platitude suggested, to be trying to "make her own luck".

Only those who would stand to lose would defend the indefensible (by suggesting that Pod should be working even harder in order to be able to afford over-inflated prices), whilst at the same time pretending to be concerned about her future.

The answer to Pod's problem is not working ever-harder, chasing prices that run out of your reach just before you reach them, nor a lifetime of unnecessary debt to feed the greed of others.

I simply believe in fairness and eventually, so will the market. It isn't about what people think, including and especially about what I think. It is about reality, which is, if the buyer can't afford it, the seller won't be able to sell at the unaffordable price.

Your empty wish of Good Luck to Plod, preceeded by your "go and work harder still" is typical of the arrogance that has led to this problem. But your sneering smile will be wiped from your face when the pendulum eventually swings back the other way!

So staintuneriderzwei, in answer to your remarks, Yes, I DO "know" as I am old enough to have seen it all before ... and I will see it all again! It isn't rocket science. And the people who "call it as they want it" are those that think that the housing market can go on an infinite boom and think those who can't get on the ladder are just too idle. Or have failed to "redefine themsleves". What drivel!! Your argument lacks reality.

But we will see who is right. Time will tell!  :)

  • 0 recommendations

Fortunately the market will determine it's own course rather Sparkie whose now just ranting...if Sparkie is in touch with reality I am the "tooth fairy".

I do wish Pod the best but she and many others have to understand that she and others myself included determine our own destiny. If you don;t like your job or you don;t like the salary the beauty of capitalism is you can go and sell your talents to a higher bidder or go  a different path. If you don;t have much talent or lack the get up and go well, it's social housing or being a lodger or tenant at best for you.

Some end in failure, some succeed, some reach(not many) the dizzy heights of success. It'a dog eat dog world if you hadn't noticed. And it's not fair(just look at the MP's). If you don;t like your lot it's going to be up to you to do something about it, whatever that may be.

As another poster pointed out recently for good or bad this country has made housing the backbone of our economic well being. They were right, it may be crazy but it's a fact. If the market implodes the economy will be shattered. 000's will walk away from their debts. This is why the govt is doing all it can to prop it up. Brits's love houses, fact. Yes they should just be homes but it's no longer the case. They are investments as well as abodes, this will not change any time soon unless we had a crash to end crashes and then we'll be in Zimbabwe territory and all your savings will also evaporate.

I don;t want another boom and i don;t think we;ll get one for quite a while. But i think the next boom could be worse than the last because with no faith in pensions or govt people will rather have their money where they can control it.

sparkie said

  • 1 recommendation

Hello Tooth Fairy

Thank you for proving my point. People are at last learning that an economy based on the flakey housing market (i.e., built on debt) is no replacement for an economy built on a solid manufacturing.

  • 0 recommendations

sparkie,

It's always nice to find other people who can see this situation from the same position as me. As staintuneriderzwei says:

"for good or bad this country has made housing the backbone of our economic well being."

An economy based on ever increasing house prices which are themselves based on the ability of people to take on more and more debt. Debt is borrowing (at cost) from the future so what happens when:

(a) The debt comes due and

(b) People cannot afford to take on more debt

?

 Staintuneriderzwei answers this quite nicely when he says:

"the economy will be shattered. 000's will walk away from their debts."

But zanuLabour won't allow the housing market to fall and will try everything they can to prop it up, including forcing interest rates to historic lows and printing money to try and re-infate the bubble. But as this is a fault in the way our economy works this can only lead to one of two eventual outcomes, ether interest rate hikes (and a house price crash) or, as Staintuneriderzwei puts it:

"we'll be in Zimbabwe territory and all your savings will also evaporate."

zippy said

  • 0 recommendations

Hello Pod,

I have recently returned to work after 9 months mat leave, our circumstances changed in this time and I am commuting 290 miles each way and staying over during the week alongside work from home to keep a stressful job and pay for house. I do not want to be a 'supermum' or have it all.

It is difficult but I have a beautiful fantastic baby who is very very happy, a hubby who is wonderful and just as good as me at looking after the baby, and a roof over our heads.

It is very easy to ponificate when you are not pregnant or do not have young children.  Now you have a real choice not a theoretical one base it on what you want not on finances (there is also more pressure on parents to be to spend on non essentials from the baby industry than there is on engaged couples from the wedding industry)

really good luck hang in there 

zippy said

  • 0 recommendations

Its not just the buy to let investors it's the second home owners who have a huge impact in the countryside and are causing real problems in both supply of houses and over inflated prices.

Alas mortgage increases, fuel increases (car and heating) etc etc still appear to have had little impact ........

CodeGimp said

  • 0 recommendations

Utter nonsense. The house price crash has barely started.

It takes years for these events to unwind. Consider the last (minor) property crash around 1991. Property prices didn't bottom out until around 1996. Sure, there'll be minor blips here and there, but the overall long-term direction for property is down. UK property is overvalued, simple as that.

Just wait until unemployment (always a lagging indicator of national economic prosperity) goes over 10% and interest rates are forced up a few percent as a result of the double-whammy of recent government gilt sales and quantitative easing.

And don't for one moment think the banks are out of the doo-doo. They're not. Again, just wait until government bond yields start shooting upwards as bond investors lose faith in the purchasing power of the pound.

Reversion to the mean ratio of property prices to average income is completely inevitable. Anyone buying property now will still be crucified over the next decade.

A1 said

  • 0 recommendations

The house price crash over......not likely. Merely a 'Dead Cat Bounce'!

Harvey, please speak to Dominc over at Moneyweek-http://www.moneyweek.com/investments/property/what-we-can-learn-from-the-last-housing-crash-14794.aspx 

MrRee said

  • 0 recommendations

A1 - that is a fantastic article and talks a lot of sense.

Harvey needs to read it and counter each point, if he can with conviction.

Johnny5 said

  • 0 recommendations

Codegimp "Reversion to the mean ratio of property prices to average income is completely inevitable. "

Anyone who uses this to say how to indicate house prices is as daft as a brush and has no idea about property or the property market.

In my book it's the equivalent of someone saying they used to be Napoleon, someone to sideline from the debate !

Still plenty of doomsters on the scene generally i see, these gloaters hate any sign of positivity in the market or economy....sad....the fact is they don;t understand diddly and are often seen quoting some article or other because they don't seem to be able to analyse the fundamentals themselves.

There was a well known doomster recently saying there were going to be 70 percent falls because of a load of hogwash Moody's had wriiten. If they knew anything about Moody's they would know Moody's are the least reliable authority on Uk property as this is far from ther main remit. They are also engaging in knee jerk reactions to far the other way from their previous position of being fast asleep at the wheel right up to the economic crash......and why because their ratings are a cash cow and come second th cash and always have done....

Johnny5 said

  • 0 recommendations

A1, I had to have a look at the article you mention. i am afaraid(actually i am not) |Dominic is wrong. The fundamental behind his therory is the lack of funding....is he blind ? yes it's still tight but loosening all the time,...i kep saying it and a look around the mortgage section on the fool tells it all...more and more lenders and more and more products !

Sorry Doomster's I know you hate positivity but you are so wrong....banks are makng more on residential mortgages now than they ever have done over base and Libor...that's why they are flooding back in. They only make money by lending ! The only real option for them to so is credit cards, overdrafts and mortgages...

yes you need a decent deposit. Dominic does make some good points about inflation and other things but the way he talks about lending is already about 3 months out of date. And in these times that's an eternity.

Alexh said

  • 0 recommendations

I totally agree with pods view, my partner and I (both in our 30s) were looking to start a family soon, but due to this recession it is no longer realistic.

Unfortunately, I work in one of the worst hit industries and was made redundant last year (my 12 year career in architecture appears to have come to an abrupt end) so for staintuneriderzwei to suggest I just go out and ‘sell my talents to a higher bidder’ is impossible, as the only job I’ve been offered (within the industry) now means increasing my hours per week by 1/3 for £10k less a year, which for me is the difference between paying for my mortgage or not!

So at what point do I actually get to raise a family and enjoy life? If the advice is work hard and if that fails, work harder and longer!!

I am in no way looking for the sympathy vote or trying to act like the victim (but I can’t help occasionally feeling like one)

What I always find strange though is peoples attitude towards property, we bought our house with a view to it being our family home, not as an investment, had this been the attitude of the majority then we may not have ended up in this mess.

Also, before I get accused of being a dreamer, I understand inflation, affordability, increased income all have an effect on increasing house prices, but people should have been realistic about affordability, just because a bank would give you that 100% mortgage didn’t mean you could afford it! We all had a collective responsibility to spend what we could afford, rather than spend the credit thrown at us! Yes the banks were irresponsible, but we were stupid and naive to think the debt wouldn’t catch up with us.

As with Pod, I also try to live within my limits and try not to play ‘buy now pay later’ game, but can’t help but think maybe I was the stupid one for not choosing to play, in the end if I couldn’t pay I could  have just walked away from the debt and started again, as many people have done!

I, like many others, think there is still a long way to go in this crash and we’ll be even longer in recovery.

CodeGimp said

  • 0 recommendations

Johnny5,

All you have said is that, in your (no doubt extremely important) opinion, I'm "daft as a brush" and have "no idea about property or the property market". At no point do you even attempt to explain why you think I'm incorrect, or why my comments are daft.

You then proceed to witter on with ad-hominem attacks upon property bears and ratings agencies in general. To quote: "the fact is they don;t understand diddly and are often seen quoting some article or other because they don't seem to be able to analyse the fundamentals themselves.". Let me assure you of this: At no point have you offered any fundamental analytical insight whatsoever. You come across as nothing more than an extremely vociferous ignoramus.

So, I'll try again:

1. Property costs a lot of money. The average house is still valued at a price which is a higher multiple of your or my salary than it was ten years ago.

2. Therefore, in order to buy such a house I will have to borrow more money. Proportionally more, relative to my salary, than I did a decade ago.

3. If I have borrowed a large sum, I have to pay it back or I will lose the house. This becomes increasingly difficult the more I have borrowed since it leaves me more vulnerable to interest-rate increases. This is the biggest problem with the fallacious notion of the last decade that property is "affordable" in terms of monthly repayments; interest rates over the last decade have been historically low over this time. This cannot last much longer, particularly with the inflationary pressure exerted by recent massive government bond sales and a flood of new money creation (aka "quantitave easing").

4. Interest rates are about as low as they can possibly go. There's only one way they can go in future, and that's up. When this happens, it is inevitable that people who are highly leveraged (e.g. have borrowed, say, more than five times their salary)

5. Making mortgage repayments is difficult when you've been made redundant and jobs are scarce. Unemployment is on the rise. This is having a detrimental effect on bank losses worldwide, constraining what they can lend in future. This will ensure that homebuyers will continue to need higher deposits and will not be able to borrow as much. The net effect of this is that house price rises will also become increasingly constrained.

Johnny5, can you now come up with a coherent, logical argument that debunks any of these points?

CodeGimp said

  • 0 recommendations

Sorry, point 4 was incomplete:

4. Interest rates are about as low as they can possibly go. There's only one way they can go in future, and that's up. When this happens, it is inevitable that people who are highly leveraged (e.g. have borrowed, say, more than five times their salary) will experience significantly higher monthly outgoings in mortgage repayments.

Twoflower said

  • 1 recommendation

Thanks to those offering advice and support.

Ironically the day after I found out I was pregnant I was in the office listening to my colleagues having conversation criticising people that get help with housing just because they have kids and the typical, judgemental talk of "lazy benefit scroungers". As you can imagine I hung my head low but inside wanted to scream "how about for one moment you just put yourselves in others shoes and get off you golden pedestals!". There is a saying "There but by the grace of God go I" (I’m not religious but I like the wisdom here). People are so quick to judge and you never know what fate will deal you, so do not judge until you have walked in the shoes of those you criticise – you don’t know what situation you may find yourself in one day.

My dilemma aside, there are greater concerns and implications at hand here and I can’t believe how short sighted the majority of people in this country are being. Every cause has an effect and to remain promoting an ever increasing housing ponzi scheme, will damage our country in the long term.

As Alexh confirms, I am far from alone in this predicament and there are 100’s of 1000’s of people around my age facing this same problem. All of my friends are in the same position. And these are not uneducated or lazy people. We may not be on banker’s wages, but we are earning and hold jobs that are the backbone of society and the economy. Some of us may get to manager positions later on in life earning £40k +. But at our child bearing ages we will need help from the state to afford our housing, bills and childcare costs. The generation just below us will be facing the same predicament. If you think the benefits system is stretched now, just imagine the strain this will put on the finances of the country which is almost bankrupt already – do you want your taxes raising?

So what’s the alternative? We don’t have children? Every young British citizen must aim to work as a city banker, or emigrate to a country that offers us better opportunities and more realistic living costs? Well then, an aging population needs young people to keep filling the pension pot and I’m assuming you all fully expect to be able to visit a pharmacist for your medication, or have your bins collected, or for there to be shop assistants to serve you your goods, or mortgage brokers to arrange your BTL finances. So the government is left with no choice but to allow more immigration. Immigrants will live 4 to a room in your “investments” because unlike British natives there is a light at the end of the tunnel for them – they may suffer for a few years but even small savings of our currency will really help them and their families when they return home. Even if they aren’t returning home, they may live incredibly poor in the UK, but at least they aren’t in a war zone. Oh but wait, that’s no good, you think heavy levels of immigration is a bad thing and you don’t want it?

Not my personal belief, but you often hear people talking about the problems with the “youth of today”. Well for those of that opinion, if you think its bad now how do you think it will be in the future? With uni’s  looking to set vast fees, with many kids growing up in border line poverty with no hope for the future or unsuitable housing – how will this affect their behaviour? Or for those lucky enough to escape that – they still will have very limited parental guidance as both parents will be forced to be in full time work to pay for their housing. By the time they get home for work, younger children will have to be in bed and this is the time when the foundations of their development are laid. We will have a generation a children growing up that in their teenage years will be screaming “Mind your own business, you were never here!”.

So we ignore all the long term social consequences and continue promoting ever spiralling housing costs. What about the economic consequences?

We barely export anything so where do finances come from to provide wealth to the population to keep affording the ever increasing housing costs? Already Hamptons are trying to bring in oil rich Middle Eastern buyers to keep the bubble inflated. So do we start selling our land out to foreign investors? Will it follow in the footsteps of our industries, our hospitals, our gas and electric, our roads and transport? When we do not even own the land beneath our feet where will that leave our economy in the future? It is a very British concept to sell off everything to the highest bidder for a quick buck today with no foresight into how that affects us in the future.

We can ignore the might of China, India et al at our own peril. We are not a “knowledge economy” anymore. Already the Far East has exceeded us in technology, education, engineering and in places infrastructure. Their populations are becoming more and more affluent, to the extent they are now even looking to outsource to Africa. There will come the day when they no longer need us to buy their goods. Our patriotism and sometimes racism makes us ignorant beyond comprehension. We will not survive simply because we are “British”.

There is a simple solution. If we were to invest in becoming world leaders in sustainable building and energy and state of the art social design and we would solve many a problem. Cleaner, greener, better environments would solve many social problems. New building methods would provide not only 1000’s of jobs to solve our rising unemployment but would help turn us into the “knowledge economy” we wanted to be. It’s a fact that the world will run out of oil, fossil fuels and resources. If we could become world leaders on providing this technology and sustainable building methods we have something to export again, solve our social problems, and make our lives better. But we won’t. Because that would require freeing up land and producing new towns and housing all of which will lead to more realistic house prices – we will sacrifice our future for the pockets of a small minority today with a vested interest in keeping the housing bubble alive.

So to summarise, in my mind this housing bubble has wide reaching consequences that our short-term wired brains will never realise or deliberately choose to ignore. They say great societies are cannot be conquered by invaders – they are conquered from within. Rome became decadent and arrogant and we all know what happened there. But we won’t learn from history, we won’t learn from common sense – unfortunately greed is too powerful a draw to resist.

Gosh, I may save this post so I can look back on it in the future. I always fancied changing my name to Cassandra anyway.

disco said

  • 0 recommendations

I totally agree Pod, the preceeding generation has mortgaged our future out from under us...

CodeGimp said

  • 0 recommendations

Excellent post Pod. I agree with all of it except for the bit about state-of-the-art social design; in my view, state meddling in social design has a bad track record - witness the dystopian high-rises of the 1960s and 1970s. Personally I'd welcome a drastic reduction in the size and scope of the state. Who knows, we might then approach something approximating a "free society"!

Twoflower said

  • 0 recommendations

Thanks CodeGimp. I actually phrased "social design" wrong - what I meant is trying to not to build social problems into areas. i.e. not expecting people to live stacked up in tower blocks (I cant believe people have built those again, as if a bit of cladding on the front means its any better! At least when they did them in the 60's their intention were good - there is no excuse for it now!), better designed areas, more greenery, more trees, state-of-the-art schools etc etc.

If you make people live like animals, then why be surprised when they behave like animals.

Basically like suggested by Alain de Botton in The Architecture of Happiness

Johnny5 said

  • 0 recommendations

CodeGimp

I get so tired of explaining why 3 times salary is as useful as a chocolate teapot. It's the one common theme that to my mind shows that someone has little experience in property and property finance.

As soon as they say it I think ....oh no.....come back in 20 year's when you clue up....i can't be bothered to say it again as I'm late but i have described it on other property articles here...

If you really believe in it you'd better stress test it because it's the one thing that will send you the wrong way in the property market..and will cost you money or opportunities

CodeGimp said

  • 0 recommendations

Johnny5,

"I get so tired of explaining why 3 times salary is as useful as a chocolate teapot"

You haven't explained why a single time. Not once. You've repeatedly stated your opinion that the salary to house-price ratio is irrelevant.

You clearly don't understand the difference between making a statement of opinion and coherently justifying your opinion.

I will consequently ignore your slack-jawed, low-brow, ill-informed, self-important and poorly articulated tantrums in future.

Join the conversation

Please sign in or register to add a comment or recommend.

Our top deals

Credit card
company
Balance transfers rate and period Typical
APR
Apply
now

Barclaycard Platinum with 16 Month BT Visa

0% for 16 months
(2.9% fee)
Typical 16.9% APR (variable) Apply

Virgin Money Credit Card MasterCard

0% for 14 months
(2.98% fee)
Typical 16.6% APR (variable) Apply

Egg Visa

0% until 1st Oct 2011
(3% fee)
Typical 17.9% APR (variable) Apply
W3C  Thank you for using The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse