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Stop talking up the housing market!

Published 30 April 2009 in Make good property decisions

All this talk of a housing market recovery is not only stupid, it's dangerous, says Harvey Jones. Haven't we learned from our mistakes?

I've just been talking to a leading London estate agent and now I'm suffering from painful flashbacks.

Estate agents are renowned for their headache-inducing qualities, but in recent months they have been the ones in pain, as the property market and their bonus structures crashed around their ears.

Please, no tears, no flowers.

As this estate agent talked (and talked), I realised it won't be long before the entire profession is back on its feet and making our lives miserable again. In parts of the country, it is already starting.

Because he hadn't absorbed any of the lessons of the past 18 months, and seemed absolutely determined to drag us straight back into the future as quickly as he possibly could.

Bricks are back.

The estate agent was enthusiastically telling me how now is a great time to buy property. Sorry, invest in property. He has been rushing around telling investor meetings that with savings rates at rock bottom lows, bricks and mortar is the way to go.

With prices 20% down on their July 2007 peak, and mortgage rates at record lows, he pointed out that buying a property is now more affordable than for several years (provided you can muster a 25% deposit).

Better still, buyers who sign up to a long-term fix can benefit from current low base rates for five, 10 or even 15 years.

He also noted that the UK faces a chronic long-term shortage of property supply, thanks to an expanding population, tight planning regulations, family breakdown and the mothballing of new-build housing projects.

Not that he was suggesting a shortage of liveable properties was a good thing, merely an "opportunity".

All this would conspire to push up prices faster than people expect, he said. At which point my head started to throb.

Joys of the crunch.

The credit crunch may have been painful, but at least there have been some consolations.

It did promise to put an end to manically-inflated house price rises, and the crazy borrowing necessary to fund them.

It also gave potential first-time buyers the slither of a hope that one day they might be able to afford a place of their own, and still have money left over to buy their dinner.

It stopped the rank unfairness of people who already had equity in their homes using it to buy a second, third or fourth property, and renting it to the same young people they had muscled off the property ladder.

And best of all, it shrank the opportunity for property professionals to turn the residential housing market into a money-spinning playground for them and a casino for the rest of us. 

Another load of bull.

Before I spoke to the estate agent, I had real hopes that we were learning the right lessons from the collapse, and would treat property with a little more respect in future.

The sad, naïve, purblind fool that I am.

Because the housing market bulls are out there, waiting for the first signs of life so they can start the whole boom-bust cycle rolling again.

And it doesn't take much to get them roaring. A relatively modest price fall of 0.3% in April, according to Hometrack figures, was enough. As was a small rise in the number of potential buyers registering at estate agents.

They're they go, rampaging around the UK and beyond to sucker the next wave of investors into pricing our debt-strapped younger generation out of the housing market. 

Swallow that!

I understand that estate agents have a role to play, and a valuable one. They have to encourage buyers not to abandon the market altogether, plus they have a duty to secure the best price they can for their vendors.

And maybe we do need a little positive attitude amid all the current doom and gloom.

But with another million people likely to lose their jobs this year, and many subsequently losing their houses, I think my contact was being a little pre-emptive in talking up the market. A springtime price fall of just 0.3% does not make a summer.

And encouraging those who have hung onto their jobs and can secure rock bottom mortgage rates to fill their boots will only widen the already huge gap between the property haves and have-nots. 

Back in black.

We have already seen a desperately rearguard action among property professionals to cling onto the old ways, in particular 100% mortgages. Now the "property as an investment" brigade is auditioning its marching band.

My fear is that they will prove easy winners in the race for mortgage finance, pushing up prices before most first-time buyers have come close to assembling a 25% deposit.

And that could reset the same property timebomb that was noisily ticking before the crash.

I don't want to go back to the future. I've been there, and I've seen where it ends up.

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Comments

Johnny5 said

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So what should we do Harvey talk it down as you have been doing recently in your recent articles.  What's happened to your objectivity or have you fallen under the spell of that well known property "doomster" Cliff D'Arcy ?

We all know Cliff likes property he just doesn;t want to pay much as he exited in 2005. Hardly objective.  He's going to be really annoyed if property recovers and starts floating upwards.

I never owned a BTL property but as it's a free country and a free market, if I choose to do so while other's don;t that's the underpinnings of free enterprise. Those who do take the risk and get the rewards if it goes right and suffer the consequences if it goes wrong. One thing i have noted among a lot of property doomsters who talk with extreme bias is that they very much give the impression they never owned a property and i feel they never will unless the things end up costing a fiver which of course they aren't ever going to.

Brits love property Harvey this hasn't changed. It's just we've all clued up so much since our parents generation , it regretably became an extension of the stock market. However property is a tangible and people like tangibles, which has got be better than some shares aka RBS run by an egomaniac, which destroyed any value left in the company.

With no faith left in Financial Services, the Government, I wouldn;t be at all surprised to see people flock to property before long. Especially if quantitive easing goes wrong.

I don;t really want another boom but human nature is human nature and the only way you can avoid it is legislation.  A worry i share with you is that we are now at the beginning again. I have been saying for some time that the scene is set for a new beginning. Cheap credit(albeit this time substantial deposits but even these are dropping, 10 percent i have seen this week). Building of new homes almost on hold(it'll take years to catch up). Still increasing population...who was the doomster who said about a million poles clearing off??

I'll telll you what, when i get to retirement I'd rather have funds under my own control in my house and in my bank, rather than trust some fund manager with it. Buy an annuity is fine as that's a contract that they have to honour(or do they if they go bust..is that the next thing ?)

I now expect Bimber to hove into view with some complex analysis of why the cost of a Cheeseburger in Sao Paolo means prices must fall.

peepobaby said

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Estate agents are there to sell property and advise sellers, not to advise buyers. Sadly buyers get little advice and some foolishly listen to estate agents. Mugs

Swarbs said

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I agree we shouldn't talk up the recovery, but I think people have been much more zealous in talking up the "crash". I use inverted commas as the Land Registry and FT figures still say a fall of 17% and 14% from the peak respectively, making it a correction. As any economics or investment professional will tell you, a correction is a natural part of the price cycle for any freely traded commodity, and can be caused by any number of factors.

In this case, it's relatively easy to point to the factor causing the correction. In mid 2007 the standard LTV on a mortgage was around 90%. Now it's down to 75%. Buyers now need around 15% more deposit, hence the prices have to fall to reach equilibrium. Sentiment will come into it, as will affordability, but ultimately there no magic behind it, buyers who want to buy a house will buy a house they can afford. Higher deposit requirements mean people can afford less, so prices have to fall. If and when the banks shift all their bad debts, and the market stabilises, competition in the mortgage market will see the LTV figures rise again, and hence the market will come back up. Same mechanics happened in the 1980s/1990s. Higher interest rates = higher mortgages = less affordable houses. So what does that mean for the housing market? Not a flipping thing! No one knows where LTVs will go in the future, or house prices.

Harvey:

"Before I spoke to the estate agent, I had real hopes that we were

learning the right lessons from the collapse, and would treat property

with a little more respect in future.

The sad, naïve, purblind fool that I am."

Ultimately that sentiment is always going to be naive. From tulips to wine to art to houses to stock markets, every traded commodity moves in cycles. If you want the good, you also have to accept the bad. If you want to invest to make money, you have to understand that that investment will always fall evenutally. If you don't like it, invent a time machine, travel back fifty years and live in the USSR. There's no other way to avoid it, sorry! Any legislation will simply reduce the benefits of the free market as much as the drawbacks.

And my advice to potential buyers? If you want to buy a house and can afford to buy a house, buy a house! If you don't and can't, don't! Just don't try and time the market, it very rarely works. Even Cliff "hurray for bust" D'Arcy missed out on a 10% gain to date, and around a 30% gain to the peak, due to selling before the peak in the market.

Johnny5 said

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Totally agree Swarbs......the thing is the prices have fallen substantially is this the trough ? Nobody knows this is the beauty of the free market. My feel is the factors are coming together to start the cycle again. Those who predict further "massive" falls are indicating their "want" and not trying to call it impartially. This s the trap that Clif D'Arcy has fallen into I believe.

I have respect for his courageous decision to exit at what he believed was close to the peak and to avoid(see his recent article,,,oh my word i'm recommending a D'Arcy article...actualy it's nearly objective,,, well most of it) getting burned in the stock market which he played with the familys housing war chest(his words), a highly dangerous strategy if you ask me.

Those posters who "know" the market has another 40 percent to fall, know nothing. I am always incensed by definite statements like this because nobody knows. Once the factors come together and the herd moves it moves, all one can do is use your experience and judgement, but nobody knows for sure.

I live in the south east near near Egham, i have noted a heck of a lot of sold boards recently including a couple that have languished on the market for 6 plus months. All the agents complain about a lack of property on the market in what i am happy to admit is still a buyers market. This is called by removal of speculators because you have to stump up about 3 to 400 quid for a HIP and the fact a lot of people are sitting tight and won;t sell in this climate. I notice every week relaxation of lending rules and rises in LTV mortgages. I see huge amounts of money being committed to mortgages by the lenders after being leant on by govt, this money is going to come on song over the course of 2009. Interest rates are not going north by anymore (i believe) than 1 percent i 2009 and are likely to remain low through 2010. Brits still love property ownership(we have to what's the alternative ?? (read D'arcy article involving forced moves).

If this is the start of another cycle I would like to add that i don;t want(although that's irrelevant) it to go mad again however i think that will take a long time for that to happen as the recent shocks are still fresh in the national memory. Trouble is we are all starting to see houses as just another commodity as well as homes. I agree with posters that a house is a home but they don;t see it should be an investment. Well it is I am afraid and although this may well not be a good thing it's the way it is.

peepobaby said

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A 300 quid HIP pack won't put off a speculator looking to cash in on 200k to 300k of property.

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"the slither of a hope"

You mean "sliver" (tiny slice), not "slither" (what a snake does), Harvey! ;0)

All the best,

Cliff

Swarbs said

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Johnny 5:

"Trouble is we are all starting to see houses as just another commodity as well as homes."

The unfortunate fact is that houses and flat simply are another commodity, and not that different from shares for the investor. Housing investments provide services (shelter, warmth, security) just like most companies and yields and capital gains for investors, just like shares. Even better for some investors, using debt to leverage your investment for higher long term returns is seen as the norm in the housing market - try attempting to get a loan to invest in shares or gold!

But at the same time, that's what makes the whole thing so insane for people who want a house to live in! No one recommends attempting to "time" buying bread based on the global wheat markets, but so many people recommend that people "time" buying and selling their homes to conincide with the cycles in the market. Even people who do don't always get it right!

peepobaby said

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I never came across a loaf of bread that cost 10 times my salary!

Krisken said

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If you want to see homes treated as a comodity look at Dubai, lots of off-plan buying and re-selling increasing prices at sometimes 100% or more per year. Pure speculation that has ended in tears for many. Mortgage rates currently at around 10% and freehold meaning that you own the property but not the land it is built on.

Living in Dubai and watching the process in free fall (overnight devaluation of properties by a whopping 50%), put the cyclic nature of the UK market in perspective.

ateavista said

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Swarbs needs to become numerate. He/she asserts

"In this case, it's relatively easy to point to the factor causing the correction. In mid 2007 the standard LTV on a mortgage was around 90%. Now it's down to 75%. Buyers now need around 15% more deposit, hence the prices have to fall to reach equilibrium."

With LTV of 90%, price £100,000, 10% deposit = £10,000

If LTV is 75%, that deposit of £10,000 implies a price of £40,000

On Swarbs' assumptions, methinks a fall of 60% is hardly a correction! Further hurdles are low interest on savings from income - if you keep your job. Facts, boys & girls.

 

LearsFool said

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Err no-one seems to have mentioned that one of the causes of the house price puff (my words) was the excessive lending at income multiples greater than the usual 3.25 times income.  People were claiming to be earning more than they were so that they could buy the house they wanted because at the time the low interest rates made the mortgage affordable.  It was one of the 'crimes' that the estate agents did commit, knowing full well that the backroom mortgage adviser could 'fix' a mortgage for their punter.  What teeth did the FSA have because they didn't seem to use them.  Buy to Lets are not FSA regulated, investors just couldn't stop themselves jumping in.

The fall of the US stock market (which started on 24 October 1929) was essentially caused by borrowing to invest and when the equities didn't look like they could match the sums borrowed, lenders started calling in.  If people view houses as investments and borrow to invest accordingly, the same event happens.  The houses are simply not worth it.  Interestingly ten years after the US stock crash (which rippled around the world) the world was at war.  I do hope history is not going to repeat itself, and wonder if this is the dire warning Harvey was alluding to.

Houses are meant to be homes for people.  Its a basic need and should not be exploited. 

Bandit said

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Unfortunately everything gets talked up too much and talked down too much its how these reporters make their money - ' Swine flu to wipe out 150 million' - a couple of years ago it was ' Bird flu to wipe out half the population'.

Last year we had house prices to drop by 50% even this year we have had house prices to drop by a further 20% now they are saying that things are on their way back these people have no idea.

it sells papers

What I will say though is that people in this country love property and I dont see that changing so if we are back to previous values in say less than 5 years I wouldnt be at all suprised

   

 

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The talking up of the house market or even down will happen, like it or not.  I have a suspicion that none of this will really matter soon into the future as there is a rise in repossessions and more people losing income and thus not being able to pay the highly inflated priced mortgage (low interest rates or not).  The government had better revisit the free school dinner program, improve the capability to feed hungry educated people and their children and how they are going to help a lot of people who are sleeping rough.  The last thing these people are going to need to worry about is talking the house market up or down.  We will all soon know someone who is out of work and can't put a roof over their head.  I really think the focus on the price of housing is miss guided but at the end of the day lets be honest not many people really care about what happens to someone else, so long as its not you!!  If things happen in cycles as it appears most economic issues do eventually all those that are on the street will get back to having a roof over their head but there will be much more than a bit of financial pain to endure between now and then.  Only a sombre thought, I hope I’m wrong and it’s not me or you! it will all depend on how financially prepared you have been (well off or poor) – not many of those in the UK or the US for that matter eh.

Lightenup said

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It is rare for anyone to mention building costs in this type of discussion.Insurance rebuild costs for 120m2 terraced house in the south east is approx.£125000.This obviously does not include the land and services.So to get further significant falls we need free building plots,lower construction material costs plus lower pay in all areas of the housing sector.

As likely as MP"s taking a pay cut let alone loosing their perks.

Lurgy said

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I'm with Harvey. This cycle of "investment" insanity is based upon an utterly twisted and selfish view of the "property market" - LearsFool puts it simply with "Houses are meant to be homes for people.  Its a basic need and should not be exploited. "

The basis of Johnny5's point is the widespread British (twisted) perspective and received wisdom that homes are the gaming chips of the "free market", it's something we Brits have been sucked into and I, for one, find it really distasteful.

Not a dig at Johnny5 - he also says ""Trouble is we are all starting to see houses as just another commodity as well as homes. I agree with posters that a house is a home but they don;t see it should be an investment. Well it is I am afraid and although this may well not be a good thing it's the way it is".

Very true Johnny5 - it IS the way it is right now, but I pray this recession and housing slump knock some sense back into us.

I am sick, absolutely sick, of seeing "property" treated as a ripening investment that can be milked so you can "own" a flash car, buy expensive clothes (or whatever tickles your fancy). For some time we've been back in the 80s, with crass idiots simply milking their equity (or building up huge debt in other ways) just to "flash the cash" and, for want of a more appropriate term, "lording it up" (I actually think that VERY appropriate).

Apart from supporting our "house of cards" economy by keeping people spending, it has simply increased the PERCEIVED gap between the "haves" and "have-nots". If this financial storm exposes this gap as actually being much smaller than perceived, personal wealth again becomes a relatively private matter, and we all feel a little more unity as a result, I'll take great consolation from that.

Strat 60s said

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 What an exellent article. Hello! all you smarter younger people who can see the bigger picture now in your lives? What has happened in the last few yrs should never have been allowed to get so out of hand.

 And besides Gordon Brown turning a blind eye to all what was going on in the city because all he his really interested in his own delusions of grandeur, there is another mayor factor that we need to sort out that people seem to have over looked and its the TV media.

 Why are we putting up with these same cheap and nasty housing programes everyday and night. These bloodyminded presenters and celebs alike who wont accept defeat are still unbeliebably trying to push the same old obesseion that they mainly created in the first place.

 Why does any one need to be shown round a house anyway? let alone by a couple of over excited adults who then press them to make their minds up. Where do they find these people? and even if some of them are plants we dont need this carry on because there are plenty of naive first timers out there who could very easily tip the balance into spoiling what needs to happen ie a proper correction of at least 40% 

 Those who have got more sense and control need to get at these Tv people and complain like i have done. It needs many many more of you to make the noise they can hear aloud! I can't do any more. If they are unapossed and allowed  to carry on they will take us all right back into another crazy stampede. If I had my way I would sack them all! 

 Fortunatly I have the cash to start making offers but only if I can knock another 20% off the the current price making a 40% overhaul offer.You younger people will never get another great chance like this again to keep your offers low. Once the media and Tv start spouting off about green shoots appearing the panickers and naive's will let us all down badly. Mark my words if you dont get your act together this will no doubt happen. Houses are for living in not to buy and sell.

 

nickpike said

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JohnnyB, I have you sussed, you are an estate agent. You come out with all the usual EA urban myths, like tiny island, no house builds, etc that have no effect on the market. The main factor benig affordability.

You think this is the start of a cycle? Look around you. Read the papers. Watch TV news. The economy is in meltdown, which will do preciuos little to help your beloved house market.

And for any bounce, forget it. When the bottom comes, it will remain stable for several years. Bubble collapse always do. Look at previous examples like the 70's and 90's. There will be no need to rush out and buy a house. Market changes happen relatively slowly.

I don't understand why some people want expensive houses anyway. FTB cannot buy. Young couples put off having a family so we end up with too many old people. High prices suck up too much wealth and wreck the general economy (as now). Moving up gets a lot cheaper. More cash availbe for spending on other things. These high prices also cause a return to the 19th century. More landlords and more tennants who cannot afford to buy.

I thought Labour were supposed to redistribute wealth. They have overseen one of the largest transfers of wealth to the rich from the poor ever.

We may have low interest rates at present, but be aware that when things really go wrong, IR could get into double figures, and if taking out a mortgage, this has to be considered. 25 years is a long time.

oldestfool said

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Even at today's "depressed" prices, houses on average sell at 3x construction cost.  If supply weren't artificially restricted by planning paranoia we could all have much more spacious homes and much smaller mortgage debts.  

And don't be persuaded that there is no more land, just look on Google Earth - less than 13% of our land is built on.  For more information and shocking housing facts go to: www.betterhomes4all.org.uk

IntelFool said

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Why dont you all just shut up and let it happen, you cant change anything.

All this specualtion of what is/isnt going to happen you cant change a thing.

This country is a complete shambles.

Johnny5 said

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NickPike , I don;t think this is the right forum for you. Actually I am not and never have been an estate agent. So wrong about that just for starters...

andy44 said

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5 years ago I got on a 5 year fixed at 4.99% which was the "norm" back then. Credit-crunch and all and the 5 year fixed is 4.99%. I do not know what you mean about "great opportunity" and "low rate" because I cannot see either any great opportunities or any low rates.

HomerJay said

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I have been saying stuff like this for years, so it's nice to know I'm not going mad.  The fly in the ointment is the buy to let gang who as others have pointed out inflate prices and force out ftbs. They then rent to those ftbs at high prices with ridiculous add on charges (estate agents play a part here) and make it even more difficult for people to buy their own property. But conversely their actions actually make people want to buy their own property even more.  And that is why we had people desperate to buy, willing to lie and take terrible risks.  There is nothing I have heard from this useless government that makes me believe that they understand this, even less that will ever do anything about it.  Sorry Harvey, but you are absolutely right and we could well see ourselves repeating the errors of the past because buyers, sellers, letting agents, estate agents and government all seem to want that.

andy44 said

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oldestfool: yes! Looking at an aerial photo will show you small enclaves of very, very expensive housing areas surrounded everywhere by vast expanses of land. It is absurd that a whole small town's area is smaller than one or two farms that surround it. This land is not national parks, it is farmland...

Secondly, if you look at the inland revenues tables, you will see that there are 29 million tax payers in the UK of which the 27.4 million earn 50K or less. The vast majority of the population earn less than 50K (and that means 40K and 20K and less), and yet your ordinary 3-4 bed house costs like 0.5 million or more if you go to expensive areas. This is madness.

The whole scheme is crazy - we (in the UK) have decided on this structure, we have alone decided to "call" our houses worth X when our salaries are X/10. This is all fine because it is arbirtary. It only affects people in the UK. Makes everyone with a house feel rich. Why not?

Lurgy said

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IntelFool:

"Why dont you all just shut up and let it happen, you cant change anything.

All this specualtion of what is/isnt going to happen you cant change a thing.

This country is a complete shambles."

It's that sort of attitude that LETS it happen.

If you're not even prepared to discuss the issue, why bother posting?

Karada_uk said

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In the Credit Crunch there is one sector that is responsible but nobody has blamed them.  If the quest to cut costs and increase profits the Banks ceased to do KYC - Know Your Customer.   Instead Bank Clerks became Account Managers equipped with a PC and network connection.  With those tools they became "Fortune-Tellers"   They punched the data into the computer and the wonders of Gypsy Rose Experian et al. decided whather you got a mortgage or not.    ALL the "Toxic debt" that is around is the result of Credit Scoring and is ample proof that the financial model of fortune-telling is wrong.   When you are investing, the FSA insists that everybody is given two warnings.  The first is that the value of your investment may go up or down.  The second one is that "Past performance is no indication of future performance."   Obvious really.

So why do the Credit Reference Agencies insist that is not the case?  Does 6 years of history enable them to foretell the future on a 20 year mortgage?

I think not.  There we have the real culprits.

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I agree with Intelfool, just let it happen - why waste our efforts talking it down - use your energy positively for the nations sake - like it or not property investment is a major part of our economy and it means jobs - more than any car manufacturer can offer - construction is our biggest single element of our GDP. 

The author of this comes over as 'I'm sorted so blow those who are struggling to hold onto their jobs'.  Sorry if I've got that wrong by the way - not wanting to cause offense and slagging match that these forums turn into - but rather can we have a bit of objective balance in these stories.

Dubai is different to to the UK in that people need to live in something here.  Dubai was investment for the sake of it.  Its a free market here so if some have to rent then thats the way it is. (There are schemes to help by the way and there are huge amount of people that always will rent due to their needs and wants that will never change) so why so many responses here are getting on 'the moral high ground' about house buying for homes and not investment?

And yes, surprise surpise construction costs are a third of resale.  Third for land purchase (free market thing again - its a resultant of the resale/costs balance) and a third for profit (thats why its popular - but it is high risk isn't it - see property market price crash 08-09) I think I can feel a Fool lesson coming on here.

Surely as fools we each invest in as a diverse market as possible and if we don't invest in property then can I ask what we should invest in?  Oh and can it be secure and good returns and cycle free.. What do you mean it doesn't exist???

Shares on their own are in their pure form a reckless gamble when you step back and lookat them - its likebetting on horses, better form better returns -well kind of- as someone has already mentioned, houses are at least tangible assets.  Having said all that, I can see they are a vaulable corner stone in our economy and belief makes them work.  So lets keep believing.

If we talk propery up its no worse than whispers changing the outcome of

share prices. Lets face it, Fools are saying its the right time to buy shares - why not houses. We can't force the market beyond what it can take, it'll

find its level.  The mess we are in is down to the banks/gov't management not investors and agents on their own.

People have invested in property from the beginning, its only relatively recently that this has been thrown open to 'everyone'.  At least we have said good bye to huge swathes of land being owned by a very powerful few. If we don't all do it then we'll go back to those times perhaps?

Cycles in property (as with shares) are good because it allows FTBs (or those starting share investing) the chance to get on that ladder too.

Looking at the wider picture, house prices rising means that no only do home owners feel more confident and start spending but also the banks balance books improve meaning that they lend money (it also makes the banks a better share investment as a spin off).

I'm not suggesting that we return to what we have just experienced but lending is essential to business (as does a confident and spending population) which means jobs which means better social standards for us all.  Also, love or hate what the Govt have done if we grow the economy the pay back is quicker and the pain reduced - why do you guys love the pain?  Again I'm not suggewsting we just allow it go through the roof - just steady sustainable growth (euphoria I know)

Like it or not our house prices are a key element to our economy so lets bite the bullet and ride the waves just like any other investment and give it a kickstart by 'talking it up' and try and put a stop to job losses.

Or have the 'down talkers' got something to gain out of this?

Looking forward to the far fetched responses !

Enjoy the ride!

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Lurgy, 

I'm giving Intelfool the benefit of the doubt here but perhaps he was meaning - if there is growth then lets stop talking it down and making the house price slide a self fulfilling prophecy and let it take a hold and give the country a string to its growing bow.

See above..

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...but a property's value is only going to benefit the owner when he sell it, and thereafter he needs to fork out more unless he is downsizing or leaving the country.

If you own and live in a house, what the heck does it matter if prices go up or down?

I think British people will remain miserable regardless if the value of their property increases with 25% year on year...

Believe me, Britian is a, GET-IN, GET-RICH, GET-OUT place, and for that purpose we all chose to rent.

Swarbs said

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Dustman Dan, I love your post! You start with "why waste our efforts talking it down", and then make the longest post so far on the forum! As well as probably the most economically sound.

ateavista, your GCSE maths is very nice, but you need to understand economics a bit better! There are a great many more factors at work, but the LTV is the most immediate cause of the correction. It may yet become a crash, and potentially a serious crash, but no one knows either way, and to pretend otherwise is either naive or arrogant.

Learsfool "Houses are meant to be homes for people.  Its a basic need and should not be exploited." Probably, but food, drink, heat, light, education, transport and numerous other things are basic needs. Doesn't stop them being exploited by supermarkets, energy companies, private schools, taxi drivers and all the rest of our economy!

Crawford said

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A paragraph from Dustman Dan above:

"...Looking at the wider picture, house prices rising means that no only do home owners feel more confident and start spending but also the banks balance books improve meaning that they lend money (it also makes the banks a better share investment as a spin off). "

All these comments, and still the likes of Swarbs and Dustman don't get it.  It is exactly this attitude that has helped to make the recession a more prolonged and painful one for the UK compared with our neighbours.  One of the main points of Harvey's article is that Britain is ridiculously reliant on the property market for prosperity (real or imagined) and that all we need to get toa  situation where BTL landlords are not pricing FTBs out of the market in order to have them paying top-whack rents.

The rent market, or lack of it, is at the root of Britain's property problems, imo.  Many countries and/or cities, including that bastion of free-enterprise, New York, has some sort of market mechanism where rents are controlled.  I know it would be difficult to introduce something from scratch in the UK, but this would take the heat out of the property market, and perhaps cause the likes of Dustman Dan to stop using "invest" or "investment" so heavily when discussing the property market. 

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This struck me as a very naive article, Harvey.  You seem to think that estate agents should have "learned the lessons" and now be guardians of public morals vis-a-vis the housing market.  When you work for a commission, it radically alters your perceptions of work and of life in general.  They are more than financial enthusiasts - they are closer to capitalist fundamentalism.  As soon as there is any slightest hint of a recovery, it is as natural for them to get excited as it is for a Jehovah's Witness to try to convince you of the way to enlightenment.

And by the way, I do hope that "They're they go" was a typo, and not a belief that it should be written that way.

McLeodC said

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So, OldestFool thinks planning controls should be relaxed because "only 13% of our land is built on". It is precisely because of the impact of poorly-designed development on the unspoiled 87% that regulation is needed.

If a vandal, charged with spraying graffiti on a wall, pleaded in mitigation that the paint covered only 10%, or even 1%, of the wall area, it would not be considered a valid defence.

Well-planned developments hold their value and protect the value of neighbouring properties; poorly-designed ones blot the landscape for decades.

Swarbs said

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Crawford: "All these comments, and still the likes of Swarbs and Dustman don't get

it.  It is exactly this attitude that has helped to make the recession

a more prolonged and painful one for the UK compared with our

neighbours."

I think you've missed the fundamental point here. Yes the UK is reliant on house prices and the finance and constuction industries, but this has been what has driven our economy for the past fifteen years plus. In 1992 the UK economy was smaller than that of France and Italy, and now it's larger than both. And Goldman Sachs predicts we'll overtake Germany to become the largest economy in Europe by 2050. All thanks to our finance industry and housing market boom.

And "It is exactly this attitude that has helped to make the recession a

more prolonged and painful one for the UK compared with our neighbours" is just pure speculation. The UK and Eurozone both went into recession around the same time, have so far suffered amost exactly the same falls in GDP, and are both predicted to fall by around 4% over the next year. So you have no idea who will have the most prolonged or painful recession. Another example of naivety / arrogance at work I'm afraid.

oldestfool said

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McLeodC, far from dispensing with planning, I am advocating a planning system that encourages the building of high quality attractive housing that will enhance our landscape just as cities like Bath (a speculative development on a greenfield site!) or villages like Bibury have done.  One quality new house at the top of the housing ladder enables probably 8 families each to move up the housing ladder to better, more spacious homes.  For many more benefits see:  www.betterhomes4all.org.uk

oldestfool said

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Imagine a country where the planning system made it almost impossible to build anywhere near sufficient housing of the right type to meet demand. Next, a huge increase in Government spending boosts the economy and accelerates demand for housing.  This combination would create a one way bet for house prices and as prices rose btl investors would move in to buy, competing with panicking ftbs rushing to borrow more than they could afford and buy before prices rose even higher.  The accelerating rise in house prices would then fuel further price rises as the equity created for existing owners enabled them to borrow more and drive up prices further up the housing ladder.  At the same time the newly "enriched" would borrow against the equity in their houses to purchase shiny new cars manufactured in Germany or Japan and plasma TVs from Korea.  This would result in a massive balance of payments deficit and unprecedented levels of private and public indebtedness which before long would lead to a collapse in the national currency when foreign governments decided no longer to fund that country's house price fueled spending binge.

Do you recognise this country and is it really a sustainable way to run an economy?Again, all is explained at :  www.betterhomes4all.org.uk  !! 

Savvy chic said

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Property is like everythng else. It's only worth what someone else is willing to pay for it.

That, unfortunately for young first-time buyers, means that they could have to compete with people who have lots more money than them. What else is new?

FireBlade said

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The stock market increasing 20% doesn't grab the headlines, but all the doom and gloom does. Confidence is suppressed, thus making the down turn even worse. Is this how it should be, Harvey?

Pond321 said

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Swarbs, you state:

 

'From tulips to wine to art to houses to stock markets, every traded commodity moves in cycles'

 

This is a bit of a foolish statement. Whilst some commodity prices may move in cycles, it does not always mean the size of the cycle will be the same. For example, I doubt that tulip bulb prices have ever returned to the heights they reached at the peak of the tulip mania boom in 1637.  In a similar vein, whilst house prices may well go back up after the crash (which has yet to come in my view), it does not mean that they will return to or exceed the ridiculous heights reached in the current boom.

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