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This is NOT the bottom of the housing crash

Published 12 May 2009 in Make good property decisions

New buyer enquiries are up and there are green shoots of recovery for the housing market. But we're not at the bottom yet!

It has been a traumatic 18 months for those working within the property industry. As lending by the banks dried up, sales fell to a near standstill, and estate agents started dropping like flies. Well, every cloud and all that.

Everything must go

However, new figures from the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors have revealed housing sales are slowly creeping up again. According to the trade body, surveyors have completed an average of 10.6 sales over the past three months, up from 9.7 in the three months to both March and February.

As a result, the trade body has recorded an improvement - if we dare call it that - in the house price situation, with the balance of surveyors reporting rising prices rather than falls moving from minus 72.1 to minus 59.9 in April. That's right, we're still in minus figures here. Do you detect a few straws being frantically grasped at?

We have reached the stage where even the most farcically minimal improvement in the housing market provokes raised eyebrows and a heart flutter, as if we are finally through the worst.

Those tiny shafts of light

RICS is far from alone in focusing on the positives. When Nationwide Building Society claimed house prices had increased by 0.9% during March, it sparked incredulity that such an astonishing event could possibly have happened. And lo and behold, the very next month a chunk of that increase had been wiped out with a further fall of 0.4%.

The various other indices from outfits like Halifax and Hometrack have been nowhere near as positive, frequently identifying further falls, albeit at a slowing rate.

And then last weekend, the Lloyds Banking Group, the biggest lender in the UK, started suggesting that house prices have only a further 6% to fall before a rise by the end of the year. Have they gone completely crackers? Is this the sort of barmy thinking that led to the HBoS deal in the first place?

Always look on the bright side of life

Or are the boffins at Lloyds on to something? After all, the RICS figures demonstrate the demand is there - new buyer enquiries have increased for six straight months, and at the fastest pace since the heady days of August 1999, when nobody had heard of quantitative easing, toxic debt or Robert Peston.

Meanwhile, Hometrack's most recent survey found that applicant numbers were up 6% in April, and 32% in the last three months.

The thinking seems to be that the sharp fall in house prices, which stands at 18.4% peak-to-trough according to Nationwide, has made property more affordable for our old friends, the first-time buyers. As they see properties begin to fall within the range they bracket as affordable - and according to Halifax, affordability has more than trebled for first-time buyers since mid-2007 - interest picks up and these buyers trundle along to their estate agents to see where they stand.

And so long as those buyers have a healthy looking deposit, and the squeakiest of squeaky clean credit records, they stand a decent chance of getting a mortgage.

In addition, those already on the ladder and with a decent amount of equity in their property are in a position to move onwards and upwards at a better price - and likely with a cheaper mortgage at a small loan-to-value - than they could previously.

Anecdotal evidence seems to suggest this may be happening. My own father, whisper this quietly, is an estate agent and has recently been recruited by a former employer because they are swamped with enquiries and need all hands on deck. And my mortgage broker has started sleeping at night again, thanks to a jump in the number of potential borrowers looking to snap up a bargain.

Building castles in the sky

But that is all it is, anecdotal. We can all go through the various house price indices, and desperately cling on to the vaguest sign of positivity, the merest morsel on which to finally proclaim the market has reached the bottom, and everything will be rosy again.

The Council of Mortgage Lenders got it spot on - and that in itself is something of a miracle - when it described the current situation as 'green shoots with no roots'. There may be the odd artificial improvement in sales or house prices, but there is precious little foundation for a sustained recovery, particularly while the situation with unemployment remains so uncertain.

Because the market is not at the bottom, and it won't be for a while yet. Until the banks and building societies feel able to devote a few more pennies to their mortgage lending, prices are going absolutely nowhere. And all the cautious optimism in the world will not make a jot of difference.

More: Buy-to-let investors are getting what they deserve | Why house prices have further to fall

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Comments

Johnny5 said

  • 1 recommendation

What a useless article. Is the author blind ? Every week the mortgage deals are  getting better. Lower deposits.

In addition the author completely misses the fact that the lenders are making more money on residential mortgages than they ever have done. Sure you need a much more substantial deposit than ever before. But this is why more money is coming on song with better deals as they are starting to compete with each other.

I think the man in the street has been proved to have more sense than any panel of experts such as Rics, CML or the idiot professor who wanted prices to fall 60 percent further.

The lenders lost money in the financial markets, not in the housing market in the UK. They are going back to the old ways and mortgage lending is where the money is right now. For Pete's sake they are making a minimum of 3 percent over base and often much more. This is unprecedented ! It used to be a fraction of a percent. There's no chance they will want to miss out on this. And before someone says but they will lose if the market drops ! No they won't tht's why they factor in the eposits plus if you sign up to it you are still liable for it. Banks always win except when they are dumb enough to play with global derivatives they don't understand. Mortgage lending they do understand.

Poor, poor article !

RobbieW said

  • 3 recommendations

You obviously feel very pasionate about this subject Johnny5. Unfortunately you've left yourself open to disregard in your comments. The writer is making his opinons known through informed research. You are entitled to your opinion but to dismiss what he has written in such a manner is itself poor.

There is a long way to go in the current recession with unemployment set to rise substantially.

One parallel between the current housing crash and the banking crisis is greed. If you think the money markets and the housing markets are not linked then you really need to do some proper research. People often learn the hard way and unforunately I think the housing crash will remain uncomfortable for many for some time to come.

You suggest banks are profiting from mortgage lending like they have never done before. Well they'll need to to recover a fraction of the losses they've made.

My advice would be to heed the writer's words. House prices need to fall to a more realistic level before settling.

uosguess said

  • 1 recommendation

Many believe that the house market is on the UP but all they are doing is what was done before the credit crunch. Lets not talk up the housing markert that was what caused the credit crunch.

If we allow the house prices to go UP before 2012, all we are doing is building the first step to another crunch. Is this what we want?

And bank, I am extremely dissapointed 5% LTV again? Please don't go below 20% LTV. We will have to bail you out again otherwise and we are not happy! You lost nothing, you are still standing and even making a profit again.

All believers in the early recovery please remember early recovery is bad for you too as this means higher prices and inflation! Did anyone notice the jobless figures today and you still see recovery?

peepobaby said

  • 0 recommendations

Johnny5, I found your remark about blindness extremely offensive.

Johnny5 said

  • 0 recommendations

Well I have to disagree Robbie W. Have a look at the property market programme on bbc2. you can watch it on i player. Fast forward to the chap with the greek name who made a fortune out of property and sold in 2007 when everyone advised him not to. He's worth 700 million from his property venture and has a lot of history.

He is now getting back into it, he's noyed the low rates and the fact the lending is now happening. I can't believe there'll be another boom but i do think property is now a good bet. As the man said it's the best commodity out there. It' certainly baten stocks over the last 15 years even now.

Alec Knox said

  • 3 recommendations

Blimey, shouldn't we have a spelling exam before you are allowed to post notices???

My only comment about the pontifications on the housing market is to remember my late father from Glasgow who always said "Never ask a barber if you need a haircut."

Midboy said

  • 0 recommendations

Despite this article trying to persuade you that the bottom of the housing

Market has not bottomed , the real fact is , that it has !

If ever this country is going to ever spend anything again they need to have

bottomed ..... Interests rates are the lowest they will ever be, so  get going into

the Housing Market Now ..Buy to let if necessary, there's a Glut of mortgages available... 

I know some of the big guys in the market went into Hotels now they are

returning to Houses... they know the trends ...  So don`t let this misinformed  article put you off , They

constantly claim and sensationalize most things here....

Stop pontificated and frightened of your own shadows, be brave and start

getting your economy working ..... It will happen believe me !

Dimwit said

  • 0 recommendations

Midboy - hmmm, the last thing anyone wants to do right now is be brave with their money. The trick is to hang on to it. Listen everyone, the gains in the UK housing market over the last 15 years were due to massive loans of easy credit. That door is now shut - after a crisis on this scale, there is no way lending will be that easy for at least a generation. Take away that superheated credit, and what will sustain prices? Hope? Fortitude? MPs expense claims? Prices are falling because their oxygen supply of credit has run out. Deep breaths, everybody!

Swarbs said

  • 0 recommendations

Gawd I love uninformed articles and uninformed comments!

Because the market is not at the bottom, and it won't be for a while

yet. Until the banks and building societies feel able to devote a few

more pennies to their mortgage lending, prices are going absolutely nowhere.

Hmmm, so HSBC hasn't allocated £15 billion to mortgage lending in 2009?

Ultimately, there are persuasive arguments for why the market should go up, just as there are persuasive arguments for why the market should go down. Fact remains - no one knows. I think usoguess's comments sum it all up very well, in an indirect way:

If we allow the house prices to go UP before 2012, all we are doing is

building the first step to another crunch. Is this what we want?

Sadly we don't get to decide. The only people who do are those with the money who will either buy property or won't. Whether you think they are brave, crazy, geniuses or idiots, no one has any idea what they are going to do. Those who claim they do will generally end up with large amounts of egg on their faces.

chasbmw said

  • 0 recommendations

Jonny5, I suggest you read 'Irrational exuberance' by Robert Shiller and think about the last few years of the property market.

The last few years of the boom was driven by BTL investors who were willing to outbid FTBs for houses at the bottom of the ladder by leveraging themselves to the hilt. 

This was driven off unrealistic expectations of capital growth and silly gross yields of 4% or less.  The BTL market is busted flush until capital values come down to such a level that gives BTL investors a real return on their money how about 8-10% guys and what does that say about capital values?

  • 2 recommendations

Johnny5 makes a valid point regarding the mortgage business and the fact that the spreads available to the banks are larger than in recent times, though not unprecedented; and this is the reason why house prices will continue to decline. In previous decades, prior to funding being available from money markets, mortgages were funded from savers and large margins were required to make the business model viable. As more money came on stream from the markets the business model changed and thinner margins were possible due to the large volumes of deals using this massive additional injection of money.

Now this has disappeared the government is trying to fill the gap, but the money available from the government will in no way replace this withdrawl of money market funding, and as savers are also removing cash from low yielding accounts the supply is being squeezed here too.

As is often written about houses it is all about supply and demand which drives price direction, though the supply to feed the demand is cash and not housing stock, and there is a massive shortage of cash at present, therefore prices will continue to fall.

Shiney said

  • 0 recommendations

Another article talking the market down!

We went through a prolonged period where there was nothing but forecasts about when the housing bubble was going to burst.  Now that the authors of such doom and gloom have got their wish we still continue to have people casting their negative opinions.  Let's have some optimism please!!!

Short of looking into a crystal ball - no one knows what is going to happen so come on and stop all this needless scaremongering.

No i'm not an estate agent or wishing to sell my home at present but I will say that buying my home was the best investment I ever made over the medium to long term!! 

simonwally said

  • 0 recommendations

Is the number of completions per surveyor up because the number of surveyors down?

I'm not in the housing industry, but I think there's still falls to come.

People are still losing their jobs and taking pay cuts to save jobs. 

The difference between mortgage rates and the base is still much more than it was, say 5 years ago. Allied with you needing more of a deposit to get a mortgage (neither or which is a bad thing).

I think mortgage rates will still come down some, but house prices are too, so negative equity beckons for more people every day.

I can't see where this spiral ends, but I'm pretty sure bailing out bad companies is not the way. The cost of the bailouts is surely more than the employees being on the dole and mortgages, loans and savings being assumed by other (state owned?) banks.

Anyone any ideaas where the turn comes from?

matchmade said

  • 0 recommendations

chasbmw - where's your evidence that the housing market over "the last few years" was "driven" by BTL investors? Most commentary I've seen argues that the main problem was an over-supply of credit to all borrowers; BTL was only ever a small subsection of the market.

Yields in income terms on BTL investment are currently spectacular if one is on a tracker rate - of course because interest rates are so low, but then BTL was not worth it when interest rates were high. I say swings and roundabouts, and BTL investors have just as much right to take their chances in the market as conventional purchasers. Arguably we need a lot more rental properties in the UK, not fewer, to improve labour mobility and the quality of housing for people who struggle with affording to own and maintain their homes as owner-occupiers. We should move to a more European market in which people who can't afford to buy a house simply rent, either from a council or privately, and the proportion of people doing that is likely to rise as the cost of buying land and building a house rises and rises and so does the population of the UK.

The simplest way to reduce the likelihood of future housing bubbles would be to tax capital gains on people's main homes. This is how things used to be before 1964-65 and it helped substantially to control house price inflation. It you are feeling chippy about the middle classes it also has the added benefit of giving you a warm glow about the removal of the biggest tax break going. It would also level the playing field between owner-occupiers and BTL investors, so BTL investors are not so penalised in tax terms (the tax-deductibility of mortgage interest is as nothing compared to the savings in CGT by owner-occupiers).

As regards the increase in demand for housing, I thought all those miserabilists who want perpetually falling house prices (3 times salary also means falling below the cost of construction - do these people ever think of that?) say that "houses are for living in, not for investing in"? Perhaps the demand is from people who simply want to get on with their lives and have the money to do so? Yes, prices may fall, but so what if you have a growing family and need a place to live and can afford to on current mortgage and LTV rates? Good luck to all those who are currently house-hunting, and enjoy your buyers' market!

matchmade said

  • 0 recommendations

Simonwally - no-one knows when the turn will come!

Some argue it's when it's cheaper in income terms to buy rather than rent. Arguably that's already happened in key parts of the country, especially with baserates at 0.5% and longer-term fixed rates available.

In 1996 the turn came when average prices compared to incomes were at just something like 2.4. The market overshot on the way down but took a long time to recover. In fact it took 11 years, from 1989 to 2000, for prices in real terms to return to their 1989 peak. If this is repeated, we won't see 2007 prices again until 2018. Of course certain people will cheer, but if house prices keep falling as they have been doing, it means most people who purchased a house after the year 2000 will soon be in negative equity or have very low capital in their house, and hence be unable to move for years to come - perhaps until the middle of the next decade.

  • 0 recommendations

There have been two things you could think of as "wrong" with the housing market over the last year or so: (1) prices have been going down - actually I don't think that's "bad", it's just what markets do from time to time (2) there haven't been enough transactions to allow anyone to have much confidence in the price levels we have been seeing. The latter is what needs fixing first, and that is what, it seems, is being fixed at the moment.

Liquidity returning to a market is always good news. The fact that the liquidity is funded by borrowing is not necessarily a bad thing either, provided that the borrowing has been correctly priced.

Bobski said

  • 0 recommendations

I wonder what interests people who post on here have?

Are there a number of Estate Agents, Brokers and BTL Landlords that wish to talk up the market. And likewise FTBs or people wanting to move up the ladder looking to talk down the market?

I can see that there are MANY People who bought in the last 4 years who are dreading the falling market and what it will mean to them come remortgage time. These people will have to stay on the banks SVR as I doubt there will be any deals they will be able to make without putting up a large sum of money to keep the LTV low.

Paulr said

  • 0 recommendations

I have to agree with jonny5. We are seeing significant recovery here in Cambridgeshire with lending up and houses selling across the board.

Local estate agents are now reporting that there is a much smaller difference between the asking price and the actual selling price and that means confidence is returning. And so it should be!..property consistently out performs other investments over long periods regardless of the falls in the market.

Mortgage deals are very cheap right now and the deposits being asked for are getting smaller so higher LTV.

The feeling in this part of the world is that the market has bottomed out now and a recovery is on the way albeit nothing like the last few years.

Still...things are on the up!

  • 1 recommendation

There isn't a enough finance available to maintain a supply of mortgages to keep prices where they are.  It isn't base interest rates (very low) that will drive mortgage prices - but pay more attention to gilt rates, currently back to where they were pre Quantitive Easing. 

In order for banks to lend they need the money, and the UK a lot of this was funded from overseas.  This avenue has effectively closed - mortgage backed security anyone?  No thanks.  Also the massive government borrowing requirement means that foreign countries have plenty of chance to buy that if they want sterling assets - and 25 year paper is currently about 4.4% - suggesting mortgage rates of 6% (even our government is safer than most mortgages and the bank needs to make a profit).  So these rates aren't due to last (even if BOE rate remains low).

In the market we are seeing some activity as the cash rich change asset class from money to property.  Not sure this is wise just yet. 

IMHO true stability will come at about 30% below peak - so another 10% to go - and I'm a relative optimist in this if you look at the data.

atseyes1 said

  • 0 recommendations

I am no financial expert, but I think that wernerburger has probably got it about right.  Back in the day, when banks looked after day-to-day money, and building societies provided mortgages, they used savers' monies to do so.  That was how it was explained to me when I first had a building society account.  The only slight problem was that many of those savers were saving up for the deposit on their house purchase!!

Surely,for there to be a sustained improvement in the housing market, there has to be a sustained improvement in the supply of money to lend in the form of mortgages, and injections of taxpayers', or banks' money, doesn't really count here.  It'll come from savers, or the money markets, and (non-expert view here!!) in either case that means an increase in the interest rates, surely, together with increased confidence generally.  Can't see either of those things happenimng for a while!!

atseyes1 said

  • 0 recommendations

Sorry, Alex Knox, I just got an attack of 'fat finger'!!

loulou1972 said

  • 0 recommendations

Can i say Thank you Johnny5 for giving me hope that things are looking up, when all around everyone is ready to slit there throats.

What we need is less doom and gloom, more positive thoughts !!!

Maybe people would be more interested in spending money then!!

Thanks again we need more posters like you

Tyrannize said

  • 0 recommendations

I agree that this is not actually the most useful article in terms of hard facts however that is partially the point because everyone is reporting interest the market rather than actual sales.

My neighbours have had their house on the market for the last 6 months and in the last 6 weeks their viewing have shot straight through the roof. (I should know - I can bloody hear them on a Sat morning above my bedroom!

It seems rational to deduce that unless something else happens to deter these prospective buyers away, the interest will start converting to sales. Why else would they be in a strangers house at 9am on Sat?

  • 0 recommendations

Well, I sold at the peak, and I'm renting, and, of course, I'm hoping to buy a house at a substantially lower price - but my expectation isn't based on that hope.  If I thought we were at the bottom, I would buy a house now.  I think they still have further to slide - but it's just from reading articles like this - not from doing any solid market research.

I believe that housing, like everything else, is a commodity.  The recent history of its value proves this point.  If its value lay only in its usefulness - well, that hasn't changed.  I believe that sentiment is what drives every market - the housing market included.  When people believe that houses are valuable and getting more expensive, they will pay more - and when they believe that it's going to be cheaper in six months, they'll find somewhere else to live in the meantime.

The paragraph in the article that led this debate, "Always look on the bright side of life" shows that there is a good deal of sentiment about that runs contrary to the theme of the article.  If it is true that sentiment is improving, then the value of housing should improve along with it.  If people are starting to see it, as suggested, as being more attainable, and at least some are sufficiently convinced that the market has bottomed, to put their money where their sentiment is, then surely, the market will start to climb.  After all, it was at these prices before, and was certainly climbing then!  I know - conditions were different - but all the same ....

I was on business in Switzerland a short while ago, ad was talking with a colleague about housing.  The way he described his house made it sound a lot like the one I sold, but its value was close to three times that of mine.  To own a house there, both partners need to be in permanent work and earning quite well.  So I don't think the market is governed entirely by affordability. 

Sentiment, Folks - perception of value is what governs it.  If you think it's worth more/less, you'll find a way to pay more/less.

  • 0 recommendations

"green shoots with no roots"

It's a nice analogy but - the "green shoots" one sees in the spring after a winter (i.e., the point of the analogy) are from bulbs, which don't really have roots as such, only tiny piddly things - they get all their nourishment from the bulb itself. It's for this reason that it's important to leave the dying leaves of daffodils etc for as long as possible, because it's during this time that the bulb is recharging itself for the next spring.

I guess there might be a better analogy for the housing market in that description but I can't be bothered to look for it ;-)

  • 1 recommendation

I have just made on offer of the asking price on a property (that was accepted) AND I think the market has further to fall.

I have waited for the house price crash for some time, always looking at the fundamental ecnomics of my own situation.

For me, the time is right to get a mortgage and lock in a 5year rate.  It is also the right time to upgrade my living accommodation (third child due this summer) and buy rather than rent.

House prices get people hot under the collar.  People who have missed out on a good thing are bitter; people drawn in towards the top now finding themselves in negative equity are perhaps more so.

Market timing is almost impossible.  Don't get caught up with prices: look at your own situation and make a judgement.  Compare interest payments with rent and ensure you can weather 6months+ out of work.  And buy for the long term; something you and your family can live in for twenty years, ideally.  If you can't satisfy these things in your mind, it's not the right time to buy.  If you can, it probably is.

thomask1 said

  • 0 recommendations

'We have reached the stage where even the most farcically minimal improvement in the housing market provokes raised eyebrows and a heart flutter, as if we are finally through the worst.'

Funny that, because precisely the opposite happened when the market started to drop. 

I forget how many artciles with the headline 'house values fall' I read only to find out that is was actually the rate of increase that had fallen rather than the actual value.

FireBlade said

  • 0 recommendations

Scaremongering articles such as this do even more to hinder recovery.

Richardo said

  • 0 recommendations

Some readers might be interested in this. The data provided by RICS, the CML and Land Registry is always a few months out of date. I run a property portfolio and also provide Home Information Packs and Energy Performance Certificates (EPC). I'm accredited with the largest EPC supplier in England and Wales and see almost daily the number of new EPC and new HIP commissions. These show a very significant increase in market activity since mid-march. We are also seeing the return of people moving because they want to, not because they have to. In my view the falls in prices quoted relate to the first 4 months of 2009 where we only saw executor sales, repossessions, people in financial difficulties or elderly moving into homes. So one might think prices will stabilise at least for the next few months.

Yorkstyke said

  • 0 recommendations

With 2.2 million unemployed and personal debt at a record high, there is no way that house sales let alone prices, are going to increase for some considerable time.

Add to that, the inevitable interest rate increases to come certainly after the general election, if not before and I would say that the housing market is well and truly stuffed.

  • 0 recommendations

 The market has further to fall due to restrictions in lending and lack of big deposits required by banks.

This disastrous combination will further supress genuine First Time Buyers who are coming from all walks of life and some of them perhaps with huge debt from university.

The outlook is not looking good for construction industry, and further rise in unemployment will only make matters worst.

At least rent is cheaper than buying at the moment.

cbeffer said

  • 0 recommendations

Er, well of course - if people like you and the media keep writing articles like this, it will become a self-fulfilling prophesy. How about a little bit of optimism for a change?

  • 0 recommendations

Completely disagree with Richardo, and I quote from some earlier comments that "you should never ask a barber whether you need a haircut".

Richardo, you work for the industry and it is your interest to convince us that market is improving when we know thats not the case.

Fairplay in trying anyway!

bimber said

  • 0 recommendations

"3 times salary also means falling below the cost of construction - do these people ever think of that?"

Houses don't get used up - ever thought of that? When I bought my house (for 1.7x salary) it was less than half the cost of construction.

chasbmw said

  • 0 recommendations

Well the cost of construction includes the cost of land...........which in 2007 was at an all time high and has been falling since................Also the costs of construction have fallen 20% over the same period as the bubble in raw material costs has also popped.

House do get used up...........unless the owner spends money on upkeep, new kitchens and bathrooms every decade or so, the house will depreciate and or deterirate, not as bad as a car, but preventing depreciation is one of the costs of house ownership.

We have been living in a housing market bubble over the last 5 years or so where the price of houses has been driven up by nothing much more than speculation, whether by BTLs or by FTBs desparate to 'get on the ladder' this has driven capital values up and yields down.  This has been the longest housing bubble in recent history, its not going to get sorted out in 18 months, history of recent crashes in both the Uk, Holland, Sweden, does not give me any hope that the market will regain some sort of price stability in the next 12 months, sustainable price rises will take longer to achieve especially with a continuing backdrop of unemployment (the public sector has been relativly immune so far, but i am sure this will change after the next election)

There has been a substantial rise in the no of BTL investors, where i work the number of landlords has gone from 1 in 96, to at least 6 today in a workforce of 70 odd.  The ones who bought in the last 2 years are feeling somewhat nervous, but none of them are leveraged to the hilt so as long as they stay in work and can keep their tenants happy they will be OK.

chasbmw said

  • 0 recommendations

In terms of BTL.............how can the landlord afford to buy and properly maintain the house and profitably let it to tenats who cannot afford to buy that same house.  it could be that the generous landlord is subsidising the tenant.  Does not make sense to me.

One of the effects of lots of small landlords in an area is that as a group the landlords will tend to scrimp on maintenance compared to the FTBs who might have been expected to have bought those same properties if they had not been outbid by the BTLs.  As a result you will see that the BTL area will go downhill both in terms of the physical state of the housing stock and the values, turning into some of the worst housing in the area.

I my mind this is a good reason for avoiding buying a house in an area or a building with lots of small landlords

bimber said

  • 0 recommendations

Chasbmw,

I think the talk of the cost of construction is from a mindset that the housing market is somehow like commodity markets such as oil, in that there is a floor in prices related to costs. When I said houses don't get used up I was contrasting houses with barrels of oil. Clearly we need new barrels of oil every year, and they won't be produced if extraction costs are above selling costs, but we don't need new houses at anything like the same rate. There was an article recently (Times or Torygraph I think) about the vast numbers of people moving back in with their parents until houses become affordable. This doesn't happen with oil - when it gets expensive we pay more for it and cut back in other areas. "We" did the same with housing recently but now we know it's not necessary.

bimber said

  • 0 recommendations

I should also point out that the cost of construction I mentioned for my own house does not include the cost of land - the valuation came from the insurance company after I'd bought the freehold. I doubt they'd want to exagerate costs by a factor of 3 because people could arrange an "accident" and claim the windfall.

There is a terrace on my way to work which is to be sold off at £1 a pop and you'll get grants for doing them up too!

nickpike said

  • 0 recommendations

An excellent article.

House prices depend on the economy. With 0.5% interest rates, printing money, borrowing unprecidented quantities and 3000 a day losing their jobs, that is surely enough to tell even the most optimistic that the economy is very sick.

House prices will not stabilise until unemployment and the economy turn around, and some economists are predicting another 18 minths, including the Bank of England.

Low interest rate may make mortgages cheap now, but IRs will return to the norm of around 5% for most of the 25 year period. Rates may even peak into double figures later this year, especially if the IMF are called in (remeber we have a labour government who are dangerous), so be prepared.

2007 prices cannot happen again. Too much wealth got locked into bricks and mortar instaed of flowing around the system to provide jobs and more wealth production. This broke the system and the laws of economics have activated. Prices went above a theoretical maximum and are now correcting.

With the economy in such a perilious state, there is only one way for the housing market. Prices will continue to correct for quite some time to come.

One or two commentators here are obviously vested interest, basing their argument on sentiment and hearsay. The actual numbers do not back their views.

Bear also in mind that a house can be built quite cheaply, and that it's intrinsic value is this value, the land price being the variable. Barrats, for example, have already (some time ago actually) downpriced their land banks by some 40%.

afamiii said

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All this focus on the bottom is a bit of a red herring. No one (No: I don't mean just one. I mean NOT one person) knows exactly where and when the bottom will be reached. All the punters are not better than Gypsy Rose and her crystal ball (just better educated, maybe.) It will only be know in hindsight.

And even if you knew you would have a hard time doing all your transactions in that quarter.

The opportunity is to buy when prices reflect good value and sell (or at least not buy any more) when they are poor value.

I bought my first rental property in January 1991. It was a two bedroom flat in NW London. I bought it for £86,000 from two doctors who had paid £109,000 for it about 18 months before. I was sure that the market had hit bottom and was very happy with my bargain. The value of that property fell to £78,000 over the next 3 years.

I was dead wrong, but did I make a bad buy. Certainly not (I have absolutely zero regrets,) I still own the property, it is worth up to 3 times more than I paid for it and has been giving a steady rental income for almost 18 years. The only real fear was when sterling was ejected from ERM and John Major was talking about 14% interest rates.

What is important is sustainable yield and there are many areas across the UK that are now yielding over 9% and that represents very good value, regardless of where prices go over the next 12 months. And you'll still be able to hang in there when base rates hit 7% to 8% in the next three to five years. www.smartinvestorafrica.com

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My brother has been rubbing his hands in Scrooge-like glee ever since the housing crash was first announced. He lives in rented accommodation & has done since 1992 following the last housing crash.

He has fed himself on the media hype that propereties will de-value to pre-1990's prices & has patiently waited for houses in our area to halve in price since the beginning of 2008. 

He's still waiting...four detached houses on my road have sold for the full asking price in the past two months. I purchased mine November 2008 for £25,000 below the asking price because the seller panicked about the predicted crash & wanted to ''get rid before I can't get anything for it!". My house is still valued at its original sellin price & I have to say, that whilst there are people still wanting to purchase at current so-called inflated prices, sellers alike aren't going to be keen to give their houses away - they'll just wait longer for the right price unless they need to move fast. 

I have to agree with those of you who have mentioned the doom & gloomers who talk us into many a crisis - at the end of the day, house prices have always recovered following a crash. My previous property which I purchased in 1988 for £19,500 was valued at £45,000 in the early 90's boom only to fall to £24,000 in the crash. I sold it in 2007 for the full asking price of £82,000 in May 2007. A similar property a few doors away has recently sold for £80,000. Each week I read the local property guide & house prices are still ''pre-crash'' prices. The only houses reduced are those run-down, drastcally overpriced properties in need of renovation.

So for anyone who requires a glimmer of hope......

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