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I dodged the housing crash

Published 28 February 2010 in Make good property decisions

Cliff D'Arcy foresaw the coming housing crash and sold his family home five years ago to wait out the falls as a tenant. How did this decision turn out?

During the property crash of the early Nineties, my girlfriend (later my wife) and I decided to buy our first home. After many months of looking around, we found an ideal two-bedroom home. This end-of-terrace house was advertised at £90,000, but, after serious haggling, we bought it for £72,500 (almost 20% off) in December 1992.

Twelve happy years as homeowners

We enjoyed many happy years in our home, which we made into our neat little nest. After having two children, my wife and I agreed in 2004 that we needed a bigger home. So, we put our house on the market and started looking for a bigger place. We quickly found a buyer for our property, but took the decision to rent, rather than buy, given the growing house-price bubble.

We moved into a rented house in October 2004 and then sold our cottage almost five years ago, in April 2005. It sold for more than 3½ times the purchase price. In total, we made a tax-free profit of 253% over 12½ years, which comes to a tidy 10.6% a year.

Four years of renting

Our decision to sell without buying was not made lightly, but based on my interpretation of the trends and likely outcomes for the housing market.

With prices rising from 1995 to 2005, I felt that a correction was long overdue. Of course, we bailed out too early, as prices continued to rise until 2007. Indeed, three years after I sold, my neighbour sold his house for £110,000 more than I had, though he had bought at a much higher price.

Thus, in our early days as STRs ('Sell to Renters'), property prices moved strongly against us. I was teased a lot by my wife, family, friends, readers and anyone who didn't share my view that an economy built on selling houses to each other was sure to fail. Nevertheless, my belief was unshakeable, so we sat on the sidelines.

While awaiting the inevitable crash, I refused to leave our cash pile earning a measly 3% a year after tax.

Although our housing cash was initially held in Northern Rock, I slowly invested it in 'value shares' offering attractive dividend yields, as well as the opportunity of capital gains. For the first two years, our housing cash was largely invested in banks and insurers. I had the good fortune to exit this market at a tidy profit when I saw the early signs of the credit crunch in 2007. Later investments also proved profitable, helping to increase our housing war-chest.

By the way, selling your home and investing the proceeds in shares is not a strategy that I would recommend to anyone. We did it in order to exit an over-valued property market in favour of buying under-valued shares. For now, our strategy has worked, as our personal wealth continues to rise.

Then again, this may be more down to luck than judgment!

Life as tenants

Thanks to our national obsession with property ownership, life as a tenant has been somewhat interesting.

Homeowners are amazed that a well-off, educated couple would voluntarily leap off the housing ladder. Indeed, most people thought us insane, even though we've enjoyed a high standard of living while renting. Nevertheless, there are pitfalls to renting, even for professional people renting an upmarket home.

Our first tenancy lasted for two years. It would have lasted three, had our New Zealand-based landlord not decided to sell his London home. Happily, our forced move was relatively painless, as it took us to an even nicer house diagonally opposite in the same street. The good news (for us, at least) was that falling rents slashed thousands of pounds a year from our household expenses.

To buy or not to buy?

As things stand, I see few 'green shoots' for the housing market, despite the brave claims of various vested interests, such as mortgage lenders, estate agents, property firms and politicians. If unemployment continues to soar, then this spells disaster for house prices.

Finally, I will give a strong warning to anyone thinking about selling to rent. Your partner's 'nesting instinct' may be very strong, especially if you have young children. Hence, no matter how successful your STR timing is, don't expect much praise for your decision to become a tenant, no matter how successful the outcome!

This article is a lovemoney.com classic, originally published on 30th April 2009, and has been updated

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Comments

Carl said

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The crash in the housing market was a long time coming. It was well reported that London prices would inevitably drop for what seemed like years, I remember renting in north london in 2004 and thinking whether to buy or not because every week there would be a report in the Sunday Times saying how the rise in prices couldn't last. To be honest I got a bit tired of the predictions and nothing happening. Now it has, it's impressive you took that action you did. I wonder how many didn't. It's a shame that the concept of property ownership is such a tricky one,  feels to me like it's a perfectly reasonable ambition for most to have.

Louis said

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I don't think I could sell the family home and live in a rented house. What about when you want to change the colour of a room, remodel the garden, put on a conservatory? All of the above probably don't need doing, but that is what is fun about a home. It goes on the journey with you, it changes as your family grows older, and your memories remain interlocked with the house you had.

In some respects I wish we had sold before the crash, but my thinking is you can never predict that and my family is happy, that is more important to me than variances in house prices.

   

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My wife and I did something similar; we married at the end of 2004 and looked to buy in 2005.

We compared renting with buying and found that the all-in cost of renting (rent) was far lower than the cost of buying (interest, buildings insurance, stamp duty, maintenance, liquidity risk etc).  It was for this reason that I thought the market was heading for a crash and we decided to put off buying until it made sense to do so.

Fast forward to today and the picture is reversed.  The cost of buying is cheaper than the cost of renting and there are additional costs to renting (we now have two kids and one on the way and I regularly find my wife in tears over living in a rented home).  It is for this reason we're now looking to buy.  Although I know the proper house price crash hasn't even happened yet (i.e. unemployment hasn't happened yet), low interest rates and reasonable job security make it a good time to get a low fixed rate of borrowing a year or two before (I think) we start to see some pretty hairy inflation.  All we need is a distressed vendor with a nice house to sell but so far we haven't found one.

One more word about prospective STRs: I know one person who was evicted from a rented property due to his landlord going bust and I know a landlord who was two days from going bust the week before interest rates were cut.  You should beware that a large number of rental properties on the market are "double or quits" plays where people who "can't sell" have moved anyway and put up their properties to let.  Many more are owned by amateur landlords who are overexposed to the housing market.  My advice: don't speculate.  If you can afford your mortgage and have a buffer to protect yourself from redundancy, sit tight.

Johnny5 said

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All very interesting Cliff D'Arcy however due to a massive vested interest in spending as little of your housing war chest as possible or getting the maximum house for the contents. It's hardly likely you are going to see any greenshoots or want to is it ?

You have been talking down property for some time in various articles that have lacked complete objectivity as far as I am concerned. You are in a situation where you have been talking about what you want to happen rather than remaining impartial. You even removed some of my posts for critiscism of your views, hardly democratic.

In effect you have been wanting a major crash in order that you can take advantage of someone elses's misery. Now there are some greenshoots you don't want to see them because it doesn;t suit you.

We are in a time of incredible low rates, with a govt printing money. An increasing population, house builders that have mothballed developments. Even in a buyers market there is a lack of property on estate agents books because many won;t sell currently. Go and have a look in the south east if you don;t believe me..

There is so little tenant protection in the private sector here, this is why brits have to buy property or get a council house. Cliff;s time in rented has been quite painless but many have found the opposite. People pay the rent and then find the landlord is broke and hasn't paid the mortgage and out you go. Until we have a system as in Germany where this can't happen, ownership is always going to be the best control you have. At least you know when the baillifs are coming ! The last person to know here is the tenant. Who wants that with kids ? No wife will thank you for that...

 Cliff took a chance and good luck to him but prices here in the south east are only back to 2005 now anyway, so maybe he won;t get his bargain unless it really goes down the pan, which is of course what he wants.

Sorry a Giant Panda is happy to see Green Shoots but Cliff D'Arcy they must really ruin his day !

Bobski said

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Unfortunately we dont have crystal balls so what will haapen in the future who knows, but just a few of my thoughts....

Yes interest rates are low now and there are people who have now found they can buy a place but have they calculated in possible rises in interest rates over the next few years, and if they haven't are we going to find these people having the same problems we are seeing now???

Will banks be forces to only lend 3-4x income?......This, in my view will have quite an affect on house prices.

The only way I can see for house prices to remain high is if 50+ year (2 Generation) Mortgages start.

I guess We are in a better position than most in that we took out a 25Yr mortgage back in 2001 (a 2 yr discounted deal). then at 23 years we remortgaged but reduced the term to 20Yrs (Again a 2 Yr discounted deal). Then at 18 Yrs We again reduced the term to 15 Yrs (This time Fixed 5Yr) As we were both working over these years  we also tried to plough in as much as we could to pay a percentage off the loan once a year. I dont know how much we have saved doing this but I am sure its a fair amount.

I (Personally) would like to see the value of homes fall to more reasonable levels as We would love to move up the ladder a little without thistime having to take on another large mortgage.

matchmade said

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The reason developers have mothballed their sites is because house prices are now too low compared to the cost of production. We live on a crowded island with insanely complex, restrictive and expensive planning laws, hence the costs of land and development is high. Also build costs go up all the time as government burdens new houses with ever-more "green" building regulations, whilst ignoring the millions of existing houses that need investment to reduce their carbon footprint. Also the govenment charges £20,000 per 4-bed house as a roof tax, and take 1/3 of all sites as "affordable homes", so the builder can only make a profit on the remaining 2/3 of houses. The result - crazily high costs for new-build houses, and now we have falling prices, the costs are fully exposed and no-one save the very largest companies can afford to build.

Those who say they want house prices to fall to "reasonable" levels are ignoring the cost of producing new houses and the millions of people now in negative equity who cannot afford to move. They just want to square their desire to own a house with their meagre incomes; it's clear such people should instead be renting long-term, as they do on the Continent. Nothing entitles people to own a house, and if they're not prepared to pay that reflects the cost of production, they shouldn't try to own.

As regards rent levels and security of tenure, rent levels are much too low in this country - this is why commercial firms rarely invest in residential properties for rent. The only people who do so in large numbers are buy-to-let landlords - ordinary people, "amateurs", who are prepared to accept the low returns on yield and all the hassles of being a landlord because housing is one of the few investment areas you can see and touch and keep control of and actually make a difference through your own efforts (unlike say shares or bonds). The current laws on tenure are absolutely fine - most landlords positively want their tenants to stay if they behave themselves - it saves all the hassle and uncertainty of finding a new tenant - but no landlord should be forced to accept tenants' failure to pay rent or their destructive behaviour, and such tenants are all too common, as I know to my own cost. I've had posh middle-class tenants with doctorates owing me £8,000 in rent whilst still sending their children to private school, and I've had people lose their jobs, their marriages split up, the wife and children move out, the council refuse to pay housing benefit to the remaining man as he's one person in a whole house, and advise him not to pay the rent or to move out because this would make himself voluntarily homeless, so I had to evict him. Without the eviction laws, he could have stayed there for years, like the bad old days of rent control and near-permanent tenure, pre-1988.

Johnny5 said

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Ignoring Peepobaby's sarcastic and childish remark....

an interesting post matchmade. I was only a little aware of the complexities in housebuilding but had noted from comments from others in the building industry how dificult in a time of falling prices it was gettting to make a profit o new builds.

Those that think 2 bed freehold properties in the south east are going back to sub 100k are living in la la land added to that the amount of people on 50k plus these days, it would make buying such a property a doddle. Never going to happen. Oh and for those of you who wheel out the average wage and 3 times lending mantra...give it up please...you only need 2 times 25k earners in one house to pull off the 100 k house, it;s not going to happen especially in a time of low interest rates.

And now not ignoring Peepobaby's sarcasm...doesn't he realise that for those people who have contributed to rented stock in the UK buy buying BTL properties, these people are running a business and providing a much needed service. Matchmade is quite right regarding the pathetic way the law works in this country and how some tenants misbehave and authorities see only 1 side of the coin.

If it weren't for the eviction laws a BTL Landlord could be ruined as he most often has a mortgaage to pay on the property and isn't some rich kid with a host of paid up houses. At best he's still make a loss of months of rent before finding suitable tenants and reparing the property.

chasbmw said

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So Jonny 5 what are your vested interests in the property market?

It does not the build costs of a house that makes them expensive, it is the cost of the land that is the main variable, land costs are shooting downwards at the moment so not a problem for Taylor wimpey to build your 125K house and make a profit.

Unemployment is heading towards 3million, people who are employed are being asked to take pay cuts, we are all going to have to repay all the money that this sensible govt of ours has spent propping up the banks and after the election who ever wins will being cutting back on those nice stable jobs in the public sevices, so where is the money going to come from to pay high house prices?

tehuti said

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I have a house in which I can do whatever I like with no landlord breathing over my shoulder or able to throw me out of my home. To me that is infinitely more precious than money in the bank.Yes, the house has gone down in value, but that is irrelevant to me. I want a home not an investment.

My childhood was spent in rented accommodation. That experience has haunted me all my life.  It prompted me to go through deprivation and penury for several years in the 1990s when interest rates were at their peak in order to buy a house and provide my daughters with the security I never had as a child.

Tony said

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The title of the article is 'I dodged the housing crash', in my opinion a more apt title would be 'I sold my house well before the peak to dodge the housing crash and am still renting a house'. This is fine if you regard your house as an investment not a home. Therefore speculating on values becomes the key to capital growth. As an investment it seems that the author sold at the wrong time. After 12 years he made £110k 'profit' yet his neighbour sold three years later for £110k more. On these numbers you jumped too early. Additionally, if you had remained in the house it is still probably worth more than the price you sold it at. I also think you were very lucky with your stock market investments. You have been gambling with the money from your home. Not to mention the upheaval and stress involved in the risk of losing a large proportion of your investment. The FTSE is down over 40% from its highs so you must be congratulated on your trading skills. I suppose it is possible the article was been written simply to generate debate.

StuartR said

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I have now rented for the last 15+ years and have no particular need to own the house I live in.

In the early days the the decision to rent was a practical one, moving around as part of career building and following a divorce renting gave the ability to move as often as necessary without the stress and expenses of regular participation in the world of buying and selling, and the chains and or gazumping that would often follow. Our most recent move back to the county where I was born and brought up, although being a long term move for us, we have decided to rent the logic being quite straight forward.

1) It has been obvious to any dispassionate viewer that the housing market was overheated and unsustainable

2) Moving back to an area I have not lived in for some years and now having a new partner and young daughter, my priorities would be different, and therefore my knowledge of areas to live wouldn't be relevant to my current situation. Therefore renting would give us the flexibility to change without the expenses of buying / selling in the future.

As it happens we have found a long term rental at a price that is truely a fraction of what it would cost to buy in a fantastic location. I calculate that buying our house would cost approx 3x our rent payments. Of course this may be exceptional but based on this I have no intention of giving up all of this simply to say I own the property I live in.

In terms of comments about improving houses or changing them to suit, we have an agreement with our landlord that we will maintain the inside of the property in terms of decorating, changing carpets etc. and he will do the same for outside as well as maintaining all the large ticket items e.g. he replaced the water softener when it recently failed its service. This approach works as he wants a long term tenant as he has no intention of selling the property and we want stability for ourselves. We therefore get just as much benefit from the expense of redecorating as any home owner would.

For me renting works, we understand the pitfalls and benefits and we know what to look for in a landlord and a property. That isn't to say it works for everyone but it doesn't need to. There is no reason why a healthy rental sector shouldn't exist along side home ownership for those that want that. However in this country we have become blinkered into thinking that ownership is the one thing that makes sense for everyone, it isn't.

  • 0 recommendations

I've never understood the fuss about house prices - unless you are viewing property as simply a commodity to make money from. House prices have never bothered me because whenever I have had to move, the new house has been paid for with the sale of the old one. Most people just want somewhere nice to live with security of tenure. My parents rented one house all their working lives, buying a 5-bed house outright when they retired. Owning a house is quite scary, because no-one else is responsible for repairs etc except the owner.

I don't quite see the point of making your partner unhappy just so you can maybe have a bigger house a bit later.

I currently own my house with a 30,000 mortgage (have never had a larger one) but with only a state pension maintenance is increasingly difficult. I don't want the hassle of chasing the stock market with my capital if I sell up and rent, and I don't want to end up penniless on state benefits. I have had tenants and lodgers but the extra income is barely worth the hassle (20 a week extra for no privacy, mucky bathroom, ruined kitchen, noise and smells) - and yes I am female and spent a large part of my adult life investing in the next generation of wage-earners - hence no pension. Not much justice there, just a major quandary.

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And you still don't know how it is going to turn out.

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Firstly whether people choose to buy or rent a home is entirely a matter of personal choice. But as a property sales proffesional of 30 years experience I would question the wisdom of trying to second guess or play the property market with the family home. I have seen many people come unstuck selling at what they belive is the height of the market gone into rented then misjudged the upswing ending up paying more than what they had sold for in order to get back in the market.

As for Mr D'Arcys stratagy will it really turn out to be that successful ?. He has already misjudged the market peak by two years missing out on a further 10% to 20% uplift on the value of the property he sold (up to £50k). In the interim 4 year period paid rent, lets assume £800 per month = £38400 and effectively paid someone elses mortgage and had the inconvenience of having to move and find alternative accommodation.

The proceeds from the sale invested could easily have been wiped out had he made the mistake of investing in institutions adversely affected by the banking crisis/credit crunch.

To make this whole strategy a REAL success, at some stage will have to get back in the market and if he misjugdes the property market upswing as much as he misjudged the peak then his strategy will really be in trouble.

And dont rely on rising unemployment to push the market down significantly further as we have previously had a bouyant market with 3.5 million unemployed.

So all I can say to Mr D'Arcy good luck and to everyone else Dont Try This At Home.

suewhistle said

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I agree with Tony: "The title of the article is 'I dodged the housing crash', in my opinion

a more apt title would be 'I sold my house well before the peak to

dodge the housing crash and am still renting a house'. This is fine if

you regard your house as an investment not a home."

I moved abroad for an indeterminate period 3 years ago and I also thought the market was due a correction. But because my house was my home I rent it out and rent in my current country of domicile. The emotional side of a home is very important, even if looking at the spreadsheets show that economically it wasn't the best decision (and not helped by taxation rules in the UK).

Palefire said

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If you were going to get a school report on what had happened, it would have been entitled "could do better"

As someone who has followed your articles on the housing market and shares etc for a long time, I know all about your "brilliant plan", but you have to look at what has actually happened:

1. You bailed out too soon. The fact that your naeighbour bought his house for more than you does not detract from the fact that you could have made another tidy 110K for sitting tight a little while longer.

2. You have had to move twice

3. You have gambled with your house fund and you are pretty blooming lucky that the value wasn't wiped off them in a surprise crash.

4. You're lucky enough to be at the high end of tennancy and obviously not at the mercy of an unscrupulous landlord who might not pay his mortgage.

In any case, anyone who kept even half an eye on the housing market could see it was going to burst, BIG time. The last 5 - 10 years have been crammed with irresponsible lenders virtually trying to shove creit down our throats, and those unfortunates that grew up in a world where if you wanted it, you just went out and got it, are now suffering, big time.

MY article, if I was going to write one, would be:

"How I resisted unnecessarily replacing perfectly good cars, kitchens, appliances, bathrooms, etc because they were not my favourite colour and rode out the credit crunch with no unnecessary credit"!!

Still in the same house as 8 years ago. Still the same kitchen with a couple of minor repairs to broken doors. Still the same bathroom with new wallpaper and tiles put back on. Still the same car as 5 years ago, knowing it's perfectly ok cos I service it. Still got the same furniture as we moved in with. RESISTED ALL the mailshots offering cheap credit. House worth twice what we paid for it.

Cheers, Cliff. All this bragging has made me nearly as tired as it probably did you!

Lookout said

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I am an impartial observer, having lived in South Africa for 40 years but I am heavily invested in shares back 'home' and advising my son to wait before his first London buy. Mostly the different views expressed are based on the individual's life perceptions. I own my home outright and have no interest in what the market thinks it is worth, other than its value to my children whenever. At the same time if I were a property rather than stockmarket investor I would have sold perhaps 3 years ago in the UK as prices were really ridiculous by any measure. I have lost a chunk of cash in UK commercial property shares but that just means waitng 5? years to get back to square one. All my hours of daily reading on mainly US and UK matters tell me your market has to go down at least 20% more and it would not be wise to assume otherwise.

Strat 60s said

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 Hello! all you smarter younger people who can see the bigger picture now in your lives. What has happened in the last few yrs should never have been allowed to get so out of hand.

 And besides Gordon Brown turning a blind eye to all what was going on in the city because all he his really interested in his own delusions of grandeur, there is another mayor factor that we need to sort out that people seem to have over looked and its the TV media.

 Why are we putting up with these same cheap and nasty housing programes everyday and night. These bloodyminded presenters and celebs alike who wont accept defeat are still unbeliebably trying to push the same old obesseion that they mainly created in the first place.

Why does any one need to be shown round a house anyway? let alone by a couple of over excited adults who then press them to make their minds up. Where do they find these people? and even if some of them are plants we dont need this carry on because there are plenty of naive first timers out there who could very easily tip the balance into spoiling what needs to happen ie a proper correction of at least 40% 

Those who have got more sense and control need to get at these Tv people and complain like i have done. It needs many many of you to make the noise they can hear aloud! I can't do any more. If they are unapossed and allowed  to carry on they will take us all right back into another crazy stampede. 

debtwagon said

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Four years - hardly a "dodge", Cliff. And how much have you wasted on rent? Family house in (I assume) London, £2k per month for 4 years?  That's a lot of dosh down the drain, plus a few more £k on moving, fees and rest of it.  Must be close on £100k.

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Jonny5, why do you rhile against what Cliff D'arcy "wants"?  You don't honestly believe that his desires are going to somehow alter tha market, do you?  As I remember it, he started warning of a housing market collapse a long time before it happened.  He was also criticised then for predicting it - criticised by people, probably like yourself, who "want" the opposite, and would not countenance a reduction in the value of their assets.  In reality, the housing market has suffered a slide.  Was Cliff responsible for that - just because he sold his house and "wanted" the market to go down?

Get real, man!

Johnny5 said

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ChasBmw I,m just an owner occupier but as you prob guess i have respect for those who go into BTL. It's a business like any other and people who go into business deserve respect for the risks they take. Those who bleat on about how they were stopping people getting on the housing ladder ,like property should have some special status, I just don;t agree.

There are a lot of people on these posts who never owned a property because they didn't have the gumption to take the plunge and they still don;t. Even if prices dropped by half from where we are now there a bunch who still wouldn't buy.

I would have been intersted in BTL but personally I haven't got time for the possible hassle. If someone didn't pay the rent whilst i was paying the mortgage i'd be tempted to go round and kick them and their belongings in the street. But you can;t do that, the police wouldn't let you and would charge you whilst letting them back in. It has to be done by the book and that costs time and money. I have only rented for a short time (less than a year in the UK) but did rent a flat in Germany for some time. In fact i was such a good tenant my German landlords used to take me out for a slapup meal every Christmas  as a thank you.If I agree to pay  rent i pay it, that's my philosophy. If  had to take it out on my credit card i would....a deal's a deal.

Where's the money coming from for property now ? Well i have thought of doing a D'Arcy very seriously now but in all honesty I can see the money coming on song now and it';ll rack up all through the rest of this year. The signs are all there in the new deals coming out every week. It takes time and the govt's leaning on banks is now paying off. This will stabilise the market and take the risk element out of the equation for the banks and all thse waiting for 40 percent drops will be disappointed including our mate Cliff D'arcy. My actual concern is inflation and high interest rates 2 years hence. Also Quantitive Easing, in fact this really wories me, this is what makes me want to keep the house as if cash is further devalued, houses will reset themselves at higher values in the future. Not really value increases but monetary values. If we have rampant inflation of our currency houses will reset at the new value...devalued wheelbarrows of cash sterling will not.

I mean if you owned a house in Weimar Germany betwen the wars, that house will be worth a substantial sum today. Someone who had a million marks cash at some point after 1918 would have gone from being seriously rich to absolutely skint. The owner of the house could have still got rent reflecting the market rate and the asset that is the house would have appreciated at the same time.

Johnny5 said

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While mentioning the Weimar Republic in Germany i just remembered the story i heard about a fella in modern day Zimbabwe. Worked forty years and paid into his company's pension scheme all that time. Pucker job, in oil at a senior level.

His monthly pension is not enough to buy half a cigarette ! That's when printing money goes seriously wrong !

Oh and uphillalltheway...on the basis of what you are saying, and thinking as you do is why a lot of people don;t bother voting ! This a very negative mindset to have.They say what difference can i make? Well we all have one voice and one vote. Cliff D'Arcy included. However he can influence people and has an advantage as a jornalist on here and if if choose to counter that influence I can. A fire starts with a spark don;t you know ?

I have believed for some time Cliff D'arcy has been misusing his position on TMF. This article explains what many have known for some time. So you say why should i be bothered becuae he can;t make any difference, well he can make as much differnce as anybody and then a little bit more.

Sorry if offends you but it's being more real than taking your negative approach..

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Well said, Jonny5 - your latest two posts are certainly a great deal more worthy than your earlier one.

Well, in my opinion, anyway.

UpHill.

Chris2685 said

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I'm glad I read your articles on the housing market Cliff, the house were going to buy last August has been on the market over a year now and was originally up for an asking price of 250k. It is now up for an asking price of £189,950 and still not sold.

You've saved us quite a pretty penny so far ;)

bimber said

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Well done Chris. Not convinced by the "there's never a bad time to buy property" arguments then? I think people have moved on from there and rather laughably started calling anyone who forsees further falls a "doomster" (I've noticed the change here and on other sites). The only doom from falling prices is in the debt burdens of those who didn't want to listen to reason or are too self-important to move out to somewhere they can actually afford. You're doomed to enjoy that £60k+interest for the rest of your life!

nickpike said

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Facts speak for themselves.

I STR. The house I sold has devalued 40 grand. Rent has cost me 18grand. I now live in a house that at peak was 350k and I pay half the equivalent mortgagae as rent, being 750 pounds. Prices continue to drop at 4000k per month. Interest rates will be up to 8% by the year end, and my lump in savings will be earning. 2 years time, prices will be down another 30%. Just look at the hard economics. Not green shoots but fundamantals. We have never had banks, and hence the infrastructure, physically fail before. Before it has always been about confidence. Not now. We are losing 3000 jobs per day. They say we will pull out of this in maybe a year or two. Why? Where's the plan to do this? I don't see a catalyst for optimisim.

I'm sorry for thr optimistic comments, just wishful thinkers. This economic situation has only just started and it's going to get ugly. I'm glad my assets are liquid at present, as we may have to move out of UK soon. The UK is in the worst state than any other western country. GB has seen to that.

I sincerely believe prices will get back to 1996 values. That will still cover the cost to build.

I wasn't part of the orgy of lend and spend. If people suffer the consequencies, then that is their fault. They gambled and lost. I did not gamble with the largest amount of maney I am ever likey to handle.

The Brits are fools to themseves. Maybe this time a lot of people will learn.

Johnny5 said

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NickPike...let's imagine what you say happens. Well there will be a lot of insolvencies and a lot of banks will go bust with no chance of bailouts becaue it will be better for people to walk away.

You are also ignoring all the factors in the market that are stabilising the market al of which are pulling in the opposite direction to what you suggest.

I don't mean to be rude but really you don;t  have a clue. If as you suggest we go back to 96 prices then a 2 bed cottage that at peak was 250k in Egham near Heathrow would go back to.....about 80k.

The reason I say you don;t have a clue is because you haven't though it out......80 k house.....do you have any idea how many in the south east are on at least 35 k ? Or how many are on at least 50k. And these are not top people...there are a lot of them believe me.

Even taking the worst scenario for your doomsday model....2 low earners 20k a year equals 40k. Lordy Lordy Gail we can buy a house at 2 times our earnings !

Sorry not going to happen. If this is the logic you use to judge property investments i suggest you steer well clear of the stock market my friend !

mudshark said

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To really judge Cliff's decision we need to know all the financial details - including rent paid, capital value released from house sale and value of that capital now.

FWIW, I bought my 1st house in '96 which was pretty much the bottom of the last 20+ years; I had just started work and figured prices were starting to go up so lucky timing to a degree though none of my colleagues bought at the same time.  I then traded up in '98 and then '07 to my current house despite thinking that house prices called fall as some were saying - indeed someone somewhere has been forecasting house price falls for most of my working life.  I decided I was never going to gamble with my my home as the downside was too great so always bought the best house I could get in a place I thought I was happy to stay.  According to mouseprice my house went up approx £100k over the months after I bought it and has now fallen to approx £100k below I what I paid but I don't care as I could stay here for the rest of my life - indeed I hope so as then I'll avoid the 4% stamp duty.  I'm not entirely sure how I did it but I'm 37 with a house now worth 10x my salary and no mortgage - council tax at £200/month is a pain though....

Paulr said

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Well said jonny5. Cliff has been running down the housing market for a long time..why..because it suits him very nicely.

There are indeed green shoots and we are seeing them here in Cambridgeshire. I am seeing more and more sold signs going up and many at asking price. Prices are sensibly pitched now and mortgages are cheap cheap cheap!

The road to recovery is not so long as others may think in my opinion and already the signs are there.

nickpike said

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Johnny5...The average wage in the remainder of the UK is a lot less than 35k, and 50k would be a luxury. Around here it's only 16k.

What are these stabalising factors? 3000 a day losing jobs, highest insolvency numbers on record. Car manufacturers gong bust. House sales and mortgages at lowest levels ever. Government TRYING to borrow unprecidented levels. You don't actually think interest rates will stay at these unrealistic levels, do you?

The proper price for house right now should be 1996 prices plus wage inflation, say 30%. The economic situation will wipe that out.

I too am seeing sold signs, and then going back to for sale. I have been logging details from Rightmove for the past year, and most that goto STTC revert back to Available. And why not, just look at the sales statistics. Also look at the web sites that show actual prices obtained. They also show total numbers sold, and it ain't many.

Sorry Johnny5, my logic is based on facts, yous is just opinion or the few that earn excessive salaries in the SE, and how many of those jobs will go.

Savvy chic said

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Well, if he'd had a good mortgage, such as my Lifetime Tracker at .17% above B of E Base Rate, he could have saved one Hell of a lot of Rent money!

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I belive Mr. D'Arcy is on to a winner - not concering the housing market but the fact this article of his & its contents have been rehashed so many times over the past couple of years & he's STILL being paid for it!

Nice work if you can get it....

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I am infuriated about these "rent is money down the drain" / "you're paying the landlord's mortgage" comments.

Rent is no more money down the drain than mortgage interest: both are monies paid to people to enable you to live in a particular house.  Indeed rent offsets the landlord's costs of financing (mortgage interest + interest not earned on the equity held in the property), insurance, stamp duty and risk (being able to sell the property when he needs to, evict bad tenants, make good damage, suffer capital loss due to unforeseen circumstances etc).

I don't know why people don't "get" this.  Perhaps it's because they're used to rising house prices in which case mortgage interest as a proportion of the value of their house decreases faster over time.  Or perhaps they don't consider the lost opportunity costs of having equity held up in the property.

Either way, they are fundamentally mistaken.

If you were to take out a 25y repayment mortgage today at 4%, then 62% of your first repayment would be interest: 62% of your repayment would be "money down the drain".

Consider too that you would have to have a 25% or 40% deposit in order to get that mortgage.  So you're losing out on 3%, say, savings interest on all that money which is also "money down the drain".

The quicker people understand this, the quicker they will see how overinflated the housing market has become and how bad a situation most BTL landlords are in: especially if interest rates have to go up and overshoot their recent highs.

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Quick note on earnings multiples too:

I think they're a poor indicator of the state of the housing market.  Indeed, we breached 7x this boom which is higher than ever before; before that people were predicting a crash when we reached 6x earnings.

The reason why I think they're unreliable is that both interest rates and inflation haven't been so low for so long before.  Also, demographics have changed considerably the past decade or two: adults are less likely to live in couples than they were, for instance, and -- as has been stated above -- couples tend to have double incomes nowadays.  These factors have a deep and long-lasting impact on what is a "reasonable" house price to earnings ratio.  I don't pretend to know whether they raise or lower the reasonable figure, all I know is that they are each likely to have a significant impact and this lessens the reliability of past ratios for predicting the future.

Johnny5 said

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And James E Taylor, I agree , I have always thought of the interest component as a kind of rent. it's a choice sometimes for people to take out interest only mortgages as a way of choosing their own home but taking a rental and ownership approach.

If someone chooses to rent it's the same as paying interest only except with a mortgage you have a stake in the housing market that can go for you or against you. The one benefit ownership gives you is the freedom to do what you want with the property.

Whichever way we choose to do it, either a landlord or bank is going to be making money out of us.

That's the best description also why the earning multiples junkies just don't get it but add to the formula the varying equity and deposit scenarios each buyer has thrown the earnings multiples into even more disrepute.

NickPike, since when was the south east the "few" for goodness sake it;s the most overcrowded place in the country. Which is why salaries and wages are higher down here. Consequently the houses are more expensive. But the model still applies where ever you are,just the numbers are different.

NickPike...do you or have you ever owned a house, how many have you bought and sold over the last 20 years ?

We also have jobs down here for 16k but you can;t go and buy a house if that's what you earn. In fact the most you could hope for is to be a lodger because a 2 bed house costs 850 ppunds per month to rent here near Heathrow. In London itself forget it that'll be a week.

You seem determined to win an argument for arguments sake. That's not the point it's to gain knowledge. If you had something to add that i could see the sense of I'd take it on board but i can't see anything bar interst rates will go up as they aren't realistic but that's nothing that hadn't already occured to myself and others. Obviously you are only interested in your own view with a particular fixation on 96 prices for which you have generously allocated 30 percent inflation. So on that basis the Egham cottage with 2 beds is now going to be £104,000 !

There is nothing absolutely nothing around here even in the areas of Feltham a few miles away for that kind of money now. If your 96 preocupation came to pass you seem to not understand the fallout on the economy that this would have. UK would have to be bust for this to happen and then the banks would go bust with a all the defaulters who bought said 2 bed cottage for anywhere between 250k and 150k ver the last 10 years.

Are you falling into the D'Arcy trap of allowing what you want to happen to cloud your judgement ? If i seriously thought(and i don;t) that what you are saying had any credence I'd put my house on the market pronto at a current attractive price, inlude the stamp duty and get out pronto. But i reckon even Cliff D'Arcy much as it would pain him couldn't agree with your analyisis.

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nickpike, I don't understand why you have chosen 1996 as a starting point.

Surely, the birth of real estate or property ownership would be a better date: 1215 -- the year of Magna Carta -- perhaps?  Of course, calculating wage inflation from 1215 to today might be problematic but I really don't understand why you have chosen 1996 as a starting point.

Tony said

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I believe that buying a house gives more security in the long term. Once the mortgage is paid owning a house means that I and my children will always have a home. I could never see the same level of security from renting except to buy once you retire. 

nickpike said

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Johnny5....Your analysys still relies on London and the SE for values. There's alot of the UK that works at lower wages.

I have owned 2 houses in the last 20 years. I was that successful that the last 4 bed det was purchased without a mortgage. That house has already lost 40 since I sold it.

I saw what happened in the 90's and did not want to suffer the consequencies again. Others seem to conveniently forget this period.

I chose 1996 as that was the point when prices started to pick up from and trebled. There was no economic sence for this. I was predicting a 50% drop when most others were saying there would not be. I'm sticking to that at least, and 66% drop may be possible. Yes, the country is bust, and people have no idea what's around the corner.

Babooshka said

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Congratulations on sticking to your guns and I hope it works out for you!  How I wish we'd done the same!!  We'd been planning to ever since the end of the last housing crash, spent 13 years saving money into ISAs, going without holidays, living on half what we needed, buying second hand clothes - just so we could afford to get ahead of the market somehow.  We thought about renting when we sold in 2006 - but prices had just kept going up and there never seemed to be an end to it!  How could we have known that, just 1 year later - people getting into debt in the US could have had such a terrible effect on us?!  We thought we'd been sensible, fixed our mortgage for 10 years at what was then a low rate.  The market did just the opposite of what we expected and so now we're holding our breath yet again!  We stand to either lose everything or end up in a situation where, if prices fall another 55% as predicted we'll not only have lost the £100K we've saved, but could end up with a 100% mortgage - a situation we'd never put ourselves in on purpose!  Gutted doesn't quite cover it really! (foolish nest builder that I am!) Fast approaching 50 and wondering when it's ever gonna get easy!

McLeodC said

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So, how did Cliff's decision turn out? Disregarding how he chose to invest the capital from selling his previous home, we still haven't been told whether his gamble on falling property prices paid off, after factoring in the unavoidable 'charges' (years of paying out rent, plus two sets of legal fees, survey fees, removal costs and so on).

Johnny5 said

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The country isn;t yet bust but it will be if NickPike gets what he wants. He's done well with his strategy but i think there are a lot of fundamentals he cannot see or doesn;t want to see.

If i thought for one moment he could be right I'd do a cliff d'arcy but i don;t think so. The fundamentals I see that Nick doesn;t are applying stabilising pressure. My real worry is 18 months to 2 years down the line, affordability is good now and the banks are actually making a killing. They have never made so much money on home loans over the base rate as they are today. That's why they're getting back in the game. We are recapitalising them on the heels of govt.

If the concerns don;t materialise in 2 years i think the situation could go skwards again. We might be too strict on planning but  can; t see that changing and Brits want a home of their own. Asset in demand means demand.

I had a drive around last night and i saw more sold bords than for sale around here. This has trspired in the last few weeks. I can see the sense in Nick Pike holding out as he doesn;t need to jump in. However as with Cliff D'Arcy wanting it doesn;t make it so. I am sure Nick will say it's not a want it's how he see's it. But as with Cliff I can't help but think the logic isn;t being clouded and certain facts are being ignored because they irritate.

Johnny5 said

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For what it's worth i think the recovery is underway and will continue throughout this year.  The signs are there and the mortgage money is coming more and more online.

The dark cloud as I see it is the affordability factor 18months to 2 years away> where will interest rates be then ? Could we have a recovery that stalls in a couple of years ?

If it weren;t for the devaluation of sterling i'd do a D'arcy and clear off to spain for a while. But i can;t do that as the pound goes nowhere.

By the way stand by for the Dutch and German invasion this summer apparently they are all coming here on holiday as we are forecast a hot one and things in good old blighty are cheap as chips to them. Perhaps they'll buy all our houses and turn themselves in Von Rigsby's ! :)

chasbmw said

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I diagaree with Jonny, the last house price bust started in late 88, got really going in the early 90s and finished in nominal house price terms in the late 90s, in real inflation adjusted terms did not regain 88 values until 2002 ish.

During this time house owners in debt were being bailed out of their debt by some really hefty bouts of inflation, which paid down their debt really well so as long as they could pay the interest on their loans, then things felt OK ish.

Every spring during that process the housing pages where full of the usual guff about house price recovery. What is happening at the moment is wishful thinking by those in the property market, as property booms or crashes very really go in a nice clean linear fashion, i think that we will see lots of ups and down  in the monthly statisics until the market reaches some price stability...

This time round we have a world wide recession, which started off from the bursting of the asset bubble that had been building for the last 10 years or more, For Uk houses the bubble burst in August 2007 and house prices have had a really painfull fall since that time with the indices of indices showing falls of around 20% in many regions of the uk. 

The real economy has only relativly recently recognised that we are are in a recession and unemployment is increasing at quite a fast rate, we are in a low inflation environment that makes life difficult to those who have debt and there is a shed load of govt and personal debt that will have to be cleared before the economy can get on a sustainable footing.  If deflation takes hold then the economy will seize up and wages and prices fall, with some fairly savage reductions in asset values along the way.  On the other side the other dark horse of inflation is waiting in the wings if Govt sees that this is the only means of getting rid of its debt........................

I got divorced in 2007 and luckily the house was sold then, I am sitting on my house fund, I'm ready to buy if I see what i want at the price I think is reasonable but even at 1% reduction in values per month I'm much better off renting.        

If inflation does look to take off and if it takes house prices with it then I will seek to get back in. timing the market is impossible i know but getting within 5% of bottom would be good.

Given the chaos in post WW1 Germany, I wonder how many families managed to retain their houses to the 1950s.................and if housing was such a good store of wealth during such a period of uncertainty why do so many people rent their houses in Germany now.

yocoxy said

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Cliff,

Any chance of seeing some figures? I'm still not convinced you're on to a winner if you factor in everything that this has cost you.. including the additional cost of now taking a mortgage over a shorter time frame to finish paying at the same time you would have.

  James, that 'dead' interest was in fact eating in to Cliff's 25 year term, unlike rent which is WASTED.

You may still end up a winner if prices have further to fall but you're only half way there because you're not back into property yet (and you'll need to find a lender).

Cheers

Martin

yocoxy said

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Maybe I should have explained my point on the wasted rent a little further.

I think it's easy to explain to James why people (like me) "don't get it".

If you fast forward 25 years, the mortgage payer will indeed have paid a lot of interest but he will own his home, will have a significant asset and a much lower cost of living in retirement.

The tennant will have paid a lot of rent (which will certainly have risen over time) and will own.......... NOTHING. In fact he'll continue to pay rent for the rest of his life.

m

Palefire said

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Of course, If all the MPs repay their daft expenses (posh moggy food anyone?) then Britain will have enough money to ride out the recession and we won't have to hike taxes to pay it all back.

gardener said

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Who says rents are too low in this country? I pay £820 pm for a 3 bed roomed house. I am still waiting for some repairs to be done and am liable for rent increase every two years. House prices fall, but my rent increases. I seem to pay more in rent than a lot of people around here in mortgage payments. Yet I can't afford to buy.

MrRee said

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Personally, I couldn't afford to throw money away on rent as Cliff does in the home of further falls - too risky for me!

I hope house prices fall this year by a large amount - the country needs that adjustment to move on ... we are all stuck in treacle at the moment!

Ken1961 said

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What a lot of hot air, Cliff for god's sake give it a rest, same old rehashed message.

Fact: You sold way too soon.

Fact:you got lucky with your investements.

Fact: you where forced to move with associated moving cost and upheaval and it's only a matter of time till it happens again. Must be real secure being a rental gypsy.

Fact: you got lucky with a new rental.

Now with your luck or skill, which ever you believe it is you have, your family are living on a knife edge of an unsettled, what if existence.

On the other hand we ignored your doom & gloom and have stayed in our house which we bought a few years ago. We have about 80% equity in our home, so I too have had some luck. We have recently redecorated to our evolving taste and transformed our gardens to suit our social life. Our grand children hate to leave our home (always a crying match when they have to go) because in their words “it's special". In a world where children are forced to grow up too quick our home is a sanctuary with many happy childhood memories for both our children and now our grand children. What price do you put on that Cliff?

Yes I know what I'm talking about is sentimentality and many will be reaching for the bucket. I also know that for a lot of people, a house is just an investment, but what are you going to do with all your money? I don't think any one going in to a grave would think "I wish I had more money now".

I think when you put money before a family home, you are part of the same culture that has caused so much pain to millions, via the credit crunch. You are the same as the investors who buy profitable companies to improve their wealth at the expense of working people who are removed from jobs to; as the euphemism go's, take cost out of the business. Your the same as the investment bankers who have no regard for the consequences of their actions, just to get the next big bonus.

There are many more important things in this life than money and providing a safe, secure family home is but one, no matter if rented, leased or bought. Stop praying to the god of money, it's a greed fuelled, life destroying, soulless deity which will consume you with desire to buy stuff you don't need, to impress people that don't matter and consume ever more of the worlds dwindling natural resources.

Yes I earn money and yes I spend money, I am not well off in financial terms, but I am in so many other; far more important ways.

 

AndyP said

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"I belive Mr. D'Arcy is on to a winner - not concering the housing market but the fact this article of his & its contents have been rehashed so many times over the past couple of years & he's STILL being paid for it!

Nice work if you can get it...."

Absolutely agreed. Enough, already. He got it wrong (by his own admission losing out on £110,000) and seems to be trying to get it back by writing the same article over and over and over again. We get it. No more, please.

darcey53 said

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To:James_e_taylor

I am infuriated about these "rent

is money down the drain" / "you're paying the landlord's mortgage"

comments.

Rent is no more money down the drain than mortgage interest....

I don't know why people don't "get" this.  

Actually I could ask the same question...why don't you get it?

As

you point out 62% of your money on mortgage repayments is down the

drain....whereas with renting 100% of it is down the drain.....seems

fairly straightforward to me which is better, so what exactly don't you get?

Under

your example after 25 years, you will own your house and will be able to

live there 'rent-free' forever....regardless of how much the house is

or isn't worth.....again not sure why this is so difficult to get...?

natouille said

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As French ... We are more inclined to rent where we live and buy for holiday and pension ... ie Rent where you live because cost of maintaining property to high standard is down to the Landlord ... unless having a new build, older properties could have high maintenance attached. You expect house being redecorated every 5-10 years ... in line with building regulation .... Landlord should be forced to do so .... You buy a holiday house with intention to retire at a later date ... this is lower maintenance cost with less tear and wear. You get benefit of both ....

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Gardener - Dont complain if you dont know where to look.

Mr Ree - You poor thing. You sound like you areafraid of your own shadows. The world doesnt owe you a living.

Ken1961 - I applaude n recomended your post. Wish I have all that sentimentality myself (not being sarcastic either). However, I dont think Cliff was crowing about how smart he was. He took a view and risked an action. I dont think he has it easy either. Whether his move was smart, dumb or indifferent, I think the jury is still out. Life is a gamble. I can respect the guy who is willing to put his money where his mouth is.

AndyP - I think you are just boring.

Jame_e_taylor - It is you who dont get it. Did you not read all the renter posts in here that say renting is cheaper than owning ? 62% of mortgage payment could easily be more than 100% or rent. The other 38% is repayment of loan - an enforced savings. Then there is the cost of ownership such as insurance, void period, agents fee, bad tenants, repair and maintenance, service charges etc etc. Not to mention the cost and pain of saving up for the down payment and the risk of comittment and the sleepless nights. You are just a handout freak. The best I can say about you is you dont know what you are talking about. Why dont you be a landlord if it is so easy and smart to be one ?

Now dont tell me I dont know. I have been there - for 18 years. Like Cliff, I started selling in Dec 04. The last one went in April 07. It took me a year to sell that one. Now I have a pile of cash sitting in the bank earning me f all. I avoided the loss of capital but I am now living on my capital. I still dont know if I was smart of dumb.

To all you smart arses out the who havent been through it, it is a biz. Cliff done well to get out in 04. He didnt have to suffer all them sleepless nights trying to squeeze the last drop fof profit. The standard 80:20 rule. Nothing is that good you have to have it all.

To all of you like Ken1961, you are lucky to be able to think like that. Life isnt all about money but you need to have enough to be able tosay that. The smart ones know how much is enough.

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Sorry James_e_taylor. I was so infuriated by that post I didnt see it was Darcy53 who posted it.

Darcey53. Please dont tell me I dont know. I majored in Mathematics 40 years ago when one had to work for a degree which was still worth having then. And I still have tenants with me today going back more than 10 years.  If you havent been there, I suggest you shut up and listen - even YOU might learn something.

mandyfools said

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What housing crash?! A 300% increase in house prices over the last 10 years followed by a 15-20% fall is not what I would call a 'crash' but an insignificant small fall. 

MouthyRob said

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Exportlink88 - A fairly arrogant post from you. With regard to your attack on Darcey53 it appears as though you're confusing the rent/buy argument with the buy/BTL argument (although if you graduated 40 years ago you probably get confused by quite a lot of things these days). To add my opinion (to the original point), paying rent is not the same as mortgage interest as paying the former won't increase your wealth as the value of the underlying asset increases (over the long term), whereas with the latter it obviously will.

I can only assume you were an awful mathematician...

geewcee said

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Gardener, how come if you're paying £800+ per month on rent you cant afford to buy? Is it the deposit that is the problem, or is the area where you live extremely high priced?

Swarbs said

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Are we still going on this one? Cliff did well because he is an experienced financial journalist who freed up a lot of capital and made some good stock picks. That will not apply to everyone - a less skilled / lucky investor could have lost their life savings in the same stroke. Similarly, I bought a property for £200,000 in 2006. It was valued at £265,000 in July 2008 and is now rented to a registered charity for £1,400 per month with a monthly mortgage payment of £180. Even with the supposed 10% fall since July 2008, I've still made a big profit in what is supposed to have been a major crash. Whether through luck or skill, I'll leave you all to decide ;). The point is that Cliff just chose a different investment strategy, it doesn't make one investment better or worse than the other. And of course, lest we forget, for every percent the housing market fell, the FTSE fell 2%.

There is one thing that interests me in your article Cliff. You bought your house for £72,500 in 1992, so I would assume by 2004 you had paid off at least a quarter of the mortgage, thus leaving you with a mortgage of maybe £50,000 maximum? So at 5% interest rates you would have had monthly mortgage interest of £208? How does that compare to your current rental payment? A three bed family home would set you back at least £1,200 a month in most decent parts of London, which implies that your rent is £12,000 a year more than your mortgage? That's a heck of a big gamble to take on your ability to beat the market, particularly considering that the property market is still above the level at which you sold!

So in order to break even on your decision to rent, you have to make over £12,000 a year in capital gains, incurring what would have been, until recently, 40% tax on anything above around £9,000? Or was your situation different from this? I appreciate that you needed to move to a bigger house, but would the profits from your sale not have been better spent in keeping your total housing bill down by taking a small mortgage instead of renting? It would be interesting to see any figures on this, and indeed any figures on your purported gains and losses from switching to renting. Without them, I think you're just leaving yourself open to accusations of making exaggerated claims with nothing to back them up...

nickpike said

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Actually, the vested interest brigade seem to be a bit thin on the ground at present.

The polls are closing between Tory and Labour. peolpe have a head-in-the-sand attitude to the economy. They think that Labour will buffer the guy in the street from reality. The country is well on its way to defaulting, and the public will know about it big time.

Whatever happens, the housing maket is like a dead man walking. Prices will plummet, and by more than my additional forcast.

Just be patient if you want to buy, it will save you tens of thousands.

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Mouthy Rob : U ass-u-me wrong. U dont even understand what the arguement is about. What can I say.

darcey53 said

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exportlink88 - as a matter of I have been in buy-let for 13 years and have several property....however this isn't really relevant to the comment I was making to james_e_taylor which as Mouthyrob kindly points out was about Renting v Buying a place to live...

SteveIng said

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Who cares what Cliff thinks about this.  What I want to know is what his (long suffering) wife thinks about this.  My wife certainly wouldn't sell up and rent on the whim of her husband and neither would I ask her to.  The possibility of more money verses security, safety, comfort etc etc.?  It takes a certain type of zealot to go through with this.

Chorlton1 said

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Let me get this straight

You bought 1992 @ £72500

Sold 2005 approx £253,750 (3.5 x purchase price)

Neighbours house sold 2007 approx £363,750 (£110,000 more)

Now maybe the same house hasn't risen much in value since 2007 but have you managed to increase the value of your capital by £110,000 or more since 2005 including paying the rent? You haven't gone into any detail of your share dealing to prove you have beaten property market.

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We sold our house very early in 2008 (ie the first few weeks) just before the prices started tumbling in our area.

The selling price was 283% of our purchase price and over only 6.25 years. We bought the house just before prices rocketted, in fact having looked through the house prices for same type (3 bed detached) in our locallity, we were in the purchase process when the ramp-up started.

That's a pretty good return in any one language. We 'downvalued' at that time into a house that is pretty much worth exactly what we paid, within 5K.

Now we are thinking of 'upvaluing' again.

So, all in all we have timed our moves with financial prudence. Or was it just luck?

eLJay said

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Rent levels are too low in this country? Private rents are higher than in Germany and many other countries. I think what you mean to say is they are too low compared with the overpriced cost of the house that was purchased. Well excuse me while I laugh all the way to the bank (please note the sarcasm).

The fact is private rents often cover the mortgage costs plus a profit, and that's why I'm going to be buying a house soon rather than putting my money into other peoples pockets.

Pitachok said

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Sold your house because of a property bubble and bought shares in the midst their own bubble, then escaped a house price crash and a share price crash with as much luck as judgement? I bet your psychiatrist is the biggest winner.

Did you really manage to earn £100k in share deals in a falling market with £250k of capital (after tax and costs)? If you did you ignored the advice of the Motley Fool - don't second guess the markets - and probably should get yourself one of those high-paying jobs in the City, or maybe the treasury as they didn't see the credit crunch coming until late 2008. Then again if you withdrew from both markets for so long your share-dealing earnings are all the more incredible.

I assume you still need to buy a home (lots of stamp duty and fees to pay) and your rents would've been higher than a mortgage (like for like - it might not be if you downsized). You were also very lucky that your rent fell by so much, as rents have actually held up very well compared to house prices. You also lost flexibility - a monthly mortgage payment can be increased or reduced by spreading the term out, while rents can't, and you'd have left a chunk of money sat around earning 2% as a deposit.

Even assuming all of this you would've only broken even, so it hardly seems worth the stress (or you were even luckier). All in all I'd say everyone was right to say you were mad and if you got away with it you should be very relieved indeed.

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