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Another Base Rate Cut May Not Help

Harvey Jones
by Lovemoney Staff Harvey Jones on 03 February 2009  |  Comments 67 comments

A further cut in the base rate won't help lots of people. In fact, Harvey Jones reckons it may do more harm than good.

Almost everybody expects the Bank of England to hack at least another 0.5% off base rates on Thursday, and most people still talk as if this is a good thing.

And it is, for some people. The problem is that the people who will benefit most have already benefited from previous cuts, while many who urgently need help won't see any gain from this latest attempt to use interest rates to bludgeon the economy into life.

In fact, many will suffer active harm.

Money, money, money.

There is no doubt that some people will be very happy if base rates are cut further, and who can blame them.

If rates drop, say, from 1.5% to 1% (a 33% cut!) anybody with a collar-free tracker mortgage will cash in. If they have a £100,000 mortgage, they will save £42 a month on top of all the savings they have banked in recent months.

Their interest payments will have crashed from £417 a month to just £83 since October, when base rates stood at 5%. That has given them an extra £334 to pump into our ailing high streets.

A small number of lucky tracker borrowers with Alliance & Leicester and C&G may be able to regale dinner party guests with tales of how they are benefiting from that strange quirk of the crunch, the 0% mortgage.

Some borrowers on SVRs (which includes me) should also benefit, provided their lender passes on at least some of it.

The trouble is, these people have already feasted on plenty of choice cuts in recent months, while others are sitting starved at the table.

Pain, no gain.

Anybody who took out a fixed rate mortgage before the base rates bonanza will have yet another reason to rue their decision. So will any borrower who didn't spot the small print in their tracker mortgage describing something exotic called a collar.

Or who is stuck on an SVR with Barclays (5.49%) or Alliance & Leicester (5.09%), rather than the more generous rates offered by C&G or Nationwide (both 3.5%).

Many of these borrowers won't be able to remortgage to a cheaper rate, either because they face early redemption charges, or don't have enough spare equity to secure a competitive deal.

So the main effect of another base rate cut will be to hand out even cheaper money to those who are already paying rock bottom rates, and ignore the rest.

Oh, and give lenders yet another chance to improve their margins at the expense of their customers.

Cuts? What cuts?

Base rates may be at historical lows, but you would never guess by looking at other forms of credit, such as personal loans, credit cards and overdrafts.

In the last 18 months, the average APR for a £5,000 unsecured personal loan leapt from 8.6% to 12%, a rise of almost 40%, according to Moneyfacts.

Since January 2009, the average authorised overdraft rate has increased from 13.01% to 14.68%, Moneynet says.

And typical APRs on leading credit cards have risen from an average 16.8% to 17.7% in the last 12 months, Defaqto says.

Base rate cuts clearly aren't helping cash-strapped to debtors with these forms of credit.

Jesus saves. No-one else does.

Base rate cuts really do hit home if you have money on deposit, and find yourself at the sharp end of another quirk of the crunch, the 0% savings account.

The Building Societies Association (BSA) says that savers are now getting 75% less interest than before the run on Northern Rock.

Elderly people living off the interest on the savings have been hardest hit. The BSA says that for pensioners dependent upon their interest income from their savings, "prices would have to fall by an unimaginable 75% for them to maintain their living standards."

Many cash-strapped pensioners will be making up the shortfall by chewing up their capital.

Building societies and their subsidaries are currently responsible for 62% of net lending, helping to sustain what little activity there is in the market. If another base rate cut scares off even more savers, societies will see their supply of funds dry up, and be forced to slash their lending activities.

So further base rate cuts could have the perverse impact of squeezing lending even further, rather than encouraging it (hurting first-time buyers into the bargain).

It's the liquidity, stupid.

None of this would matter if base rate cuts did what they were supposed to do, and get bankers lending again (although more sensibly than before).

But the cost of money isn't the problem, it's the availability. Banks are still too scared to lend, whether to businesses or mortgage borrowers, and that is what is strangling the economy. They'd still be too scared to lend if base rates fell to 0%, as could happen quite soon.

Plenty of good, solid businesses are going to the wall, because they can't get the loans they need. Most could live with base rates at 3% or 4%, provided they can actually get a loan. But they can't, and money won't be easier to get on Friday morning.

Given its paucity of powers in trying to fend off the recession, the Bank of England probably has little choice but to follow the US and Japan in slashing interest rates ever lower.

The trouble is that a 0% interest rates are no magic economic bullet. Just look at Japan, which has been shooting blanks for 15 years.

The Bank of England and Government need to find a better way of injecting liquidity back into the market - and fast.

I'll save money if base rates are cut on Thursday, and so will some of you. But that doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.

More: The Base Rate Cut -- One Month On

> We can help you compare financial products and find the best products for you in a low interest rate environment. 

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Comments (67)

  • Cliff D'Arcy
    Love rating 26
    Cliff D'Arcy said

    An excellent article, Harvey. Personally, I gave up saving last year and now pump every spare penny into shares. My view is: why earn close to 0% on your spare cash, when you can earn high dividend yields, plus benefit from capital gains when markets recover?

    Cash is now trash. Equities are flash. ;0)

    Cliff

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  • TMFHomer
    Love rating 0
    TMFHomer said

    What goes down must go up and vice versa. A rate cut sounds great now for some people but what happens when the rates start moving in the other direction, which they inevitably will at some point. I have heard tales from my elders about 15% mortgage interest rates do you think those days will return at some point if so when?

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  • GalacticHero
    Love rating 0
    GalacticHero said

    Of course a base rate cut won't help. The problem is the availability of credit rather than its cost. Credit will only be available if there's money there to lend, and that will only be there if people are lending to the lenders - in other words, saving.

    This balancing act was all much more direct and obvious in the "bad old days" of the building societies, but it's still true today.

    Lower interest rates now won't increase the money available to lend by a single penny.

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  • supasap
    Love rating 19
    supasap said

    if great businesses are "going to the wall" through lack of funding, then won't the strongest of these businesses pick up the market share left by the weaker ones and thus soak up employment..... as the weaker business goes under there is an even bigger boost to the stronger ones as these can pick up assets and capital equipment from the liquidator at a bargain price...... become even more efficient and therefore sell their products and services at an even lower price thus stimulating consumption and economic activity

    if liquidity / credit is a problem because of the fear of banks why don't we introduce properly structured dragon's dens for private investors and savers to back up "good businesses" with real money and if this fails then why not get the state to perform the role of banks..... we would all benefir from this as the great investments grow...is it so hard to spot opportunities in the market... fearful bankers are a luxury we can't afford in the modern world.... we don't want recessions anymore so let's remove these obstacles to the magic of the market and get the state showing these people how it's done.... it would be great seeing the state investing in the next google or Microsoft rather than seeing them forced to take over boring companies like natural monopolies (gas, electricity) and ailing industries (northern rock, rsb etc) where they get slagged off for either ripping us off or not making a profit

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  • DIYfixer
    Love rating 0
    DIYfixer said

    This sounds like sour grapes from those who did not have the foresight to go with a tracker and opted for the "safe" fixed rate. My mortgage payments have dropped by around 24%, this has allowed myself to put away more money in to my companies share save scheme and I've just bought a new car (got a real bargain on that). Is that not what this is meant to do, free up personnel money to go back in to the economy? You can all hunch down in your trenches hanging on to you tin hats, I'm out there snapping up the bargains. Yes I am aware that things can change that's why I will be keeping a close eye on things.

    Just to prove that things are not as bad as the media are portraying, my annual bonus figure has just been realised to me and I'm getting the same bonus for 2008 as I did for 2007 and being in the building trade my bonus is only paid based on performance of profitability unlike the banking sector.

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  • GPB59
    Love rating 0
    GPB59 said

    I agree with the comments of the author completely.Unfortunately in the last 12 months I have run into financial problems and with a fixed rate mortgage and a fair amount on credit cards I have seen no benefit from the rate cuts. All the credit card rates have gone up in fact with Egg increasing the rate by a massive 6% !!!! The only other variable borrowings I have is a secured loan with Firstplus. I rang them after the first base rate cut and was told that this was not relevant to them as they were linked to the "Finance House Base Rate"(FHBR) which hadnt changed and in fact had just increased by half a percent. Since that conversation in November the FHBR has reduced by 3% and I rang them yesterday and was told that they were not reducing as they also had to take into account general increased risk and market conditions as well !!!

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  • rovibaby
    Love rating 0
    rovibaby said

    Yes lowering interest rates free's up cash if you have base rate plus variable mortgages (I have a few) but it won't fix the problem. A credit line for business is essential and the Libor needs to be low enough and banks need to feel secure enough (Governement backed schemes) to start lending to eachother and in turn us again. If this don't happen, and the credit line for businesses is choked (that's why so many firms are going down so quickly) when you're made redundant all of those perks that base rate plus mortgages have afforded will be useless if you have no money to repay the mortgage!

    Also TMF Homer. I went through that recession and in my opinion those ridiculously high interest rates will not return unless inflation goes through the roof, which is zero likely in a full blown recession, and slow recovery period.

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  • rovibaby
    Love rating 0
    rovibaby said

    GPB59

    Ensure you keep you credit history file (equifax, experian and call-credit) clean. I can't emphisise how important that is. Transfer balances to other cards at zero % in order to repay debts monthly at an affordable rate and try to hold on until your fixed rate lapses. If it's an older mortgage you may find it reverts to base rate plus with or without a collar, possibly a lower amount you are currently paying each month.

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  • glynnwater
    Love rating 0
    glynnwater said

    Agree with most of whats dais above but, I reckon home owners or would be home owners have been waiting to see if the interest rates come down yet again. They have been hanging on. If the rate went to ZERO % they would start looking at buying because there would be no point in waiting any longer. I feel this would kick start the economy ?.

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  • rovibaby
    Love rating 0
    rovibaby said

    Zero BOE base rates will have little or no effect on the products banks are offering. Variable rates are few and far between. The best you'll get is a fixed at around 3.5-4.5%. The big problem is the deposit most banks are looking for. People are hesitant to buy simply because they don't know if house prices will tumble further; but buyers are out there. If the products are available with affordable, sensible deposits the market will recover.

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  • heskybabes
    Love rating 0
    heskybabes said

    Interesting article - yes I am one of those fortunate to have a tracker mortgage but when I first changed to a tracker deal in September 2004 interest rates went up not down and TMF were always citing how this was a great time to be on a fixed deal and not a tracker, at times it was difficult trying to find the extra to cover the increases so I am very glad for the decreases in my mortgage, at any given time there will always those who benefit and those who dont.

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  • 2381nickp
    Love rating 0
    2381nickp said

    I wonder just how much cash is freed up by a rate cut. Reduced mortgage payments have to be offset against reduced savings interest.

    If I still had a mortgage I'd be using the money to reduce the mortgage, not to spend in the high street. That would mean I'd have more spare cash when the rates go up again.

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  • jheenan1
    Love rating 0
    jheenan1 said

    I agree, as soon as my fixed bonds mature earning 7%, I will earn 3% or less in a cash account. I will buy a variety of trackers and a little in the really high yielders.

    On the flip side I have a offset mortgage attached to the base rate. If interest rates were to go down to nil there would be a huge incentive for me to set up the business I have been dreaming about.

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  • ros17
    Love rating 0
    ros17 said

    Great article! I am one of those who is not benefiting at all by these cuts. I am on a ten year fixed from 2 years ago and we had been saving a massive £500 a month towards a new mortgage, not any more. Not only do we get just £1 interest on our £18,000 savings at the mo but we are also unable to find a decent deal for the added equity that we would want to buy a new house. We have now made the decision to pump a one off lump sum into the mortgage, incurring a charge, and then make the maximum repayments each month into the forseable future. If we didn't have the mortgage we would be sitting and watching our savings do absoloutly nothing, is this really the message we should be sending to potential savers??

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  • Numberthinker
    Love rating 7
    Numberthinker said

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  • Numberthinker
    Love rating 7
    Numberthinker said

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  • 5753225
    Love rating 0
    5753225 said

    How long will it be before interest rates reach 15% again? When will inflation take off? The gov't is trying to stimulate it as a counter to deflation, and no doubt in time they will succeed.

    But house prices will have to fall substantially in real terms.

    When rates were 15%, this was made up of two components: a real interest rate of 4% and compensation for inflation was of 11%. This 11% in fact comprised a repayment of the loan. As a result the cost of buying a house dropped dramatically over time as the real sum outstanding dropped substantially year on year.

    Under low inflation conditions, where the borrower is not obliged to repay ~10% of the loan every year, the cost of buying a house is much higher than it is in an inflationary environment. Logically, this would mean that as the rate of inflation falls so should house prices, but perversely, the opposite has happened... which is a testament to the innumeracy of the general public.

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  • WilyBrian
    Love rating 0
    WilyBrian said

    Rates should not be cut. GalacticHero is spot on - the problem is availability of credit.

    In addition inflation is starting to pick up in key areas - we can't control the cost of external goods and most of what we buy is now made overseas. We need to avoid the pound going lower - the papers report there is little benefit being seen yet from the MUCH lower exchange rate, and it will get worse again if rates are cut. Fix the problem in other ways.

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  • vurrister
    Love rating 0
    vurrister said

    Seems to me the most positive thing about Harvey's article is that it identifies that without doubt the entire system needs overhaul and change.

    There has been a lot said about the damage the decaying housing market has had on the economy; but surely it has reached a stage by now where apart from the confidence factor at the banks the sector most likely to lead us out must be the business sector and the first priority has therefore got to be to get liquidity there first?

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  • Numberthinker
    Love rating 7
    Numberthinker said

    There is a sting in the tail for those who manage to get very low interest rates on their mortgages.

    When I took out my first mortgage in 1971 at 8% variable, little did I imagine the rate might increase to 16%, but it did over the next few years and even though it recovered to below 10% it increased again during later years to about 14% as I recollect. I was paying three times income when I started, but a very much larger fraction as time went on, because pay freezes (sounds familiar?)stopped my income from keeping up with telephone number inflation. It was a very hard time to be short of cash and have housing costs increasing faster than income.

    So what have these astronomical rates to do with today's rates? Suppose you are lucky enough to be on a variable rate of 4%. Well, what if it becomes 8%? Your payments double, as mine did. What if it goes to 12%? Your payments treble. (Mine only doubled!)

    But these massive numbers are a thing of the past surely?

    Why? How do you know what will happen over 25 years?

    So my point is, don't let yourself in for massive payments at a low rate, thinking high rates will never return. 25 years is a long time. The payments requested later may be more than you can afford.

    Very low interest rates may be dangerous for your health!!

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  • Jonesey12
    Love rating 0
    Jonesey12 said

    Hi Numberthinker

    Good point. Low interest rates won't last forever. If you are lucky enough to benefit from a falling mortgage rate, why not keep your monthly repayment the same (if you can afford to), and pay off more of your debt. That'll put you in a better position when rates rise again, as they inevitably will, and sharply.

    Harvey Jones

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  • debtwagon
    Love rating 6
    debtwagon said

    Well, what a clever old stick you are, DIYFixer! You had a bit of luck - sorry, I mean "foresight", so you've got a bit of spare cash and you're "out there" spending bravely while the rest of us cower and count our rusty pennies. Just three years ago, all the financial pundits were forecasting interest rates down to 3.5% or lower, so I took out a tracker mortgage. Interest rates duly rose. Lack of foresight or bad luck?

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  • gaz103
    Love rating 0
    gaz103 said

    A thought provoking article and some good comments. IMHO I don't think the rate cuts will help the economy - for borrowers liquidity is the problem whilst savers loose (particuarly pensioners) out. Those benifiting could (and should?) follow DIYfixer example and go out and spend to keep the economy falling further, on the other hand business and consumer confidence must be at an all time low (the snow headlines has been a welcome diversion from the economic woes!)so most will heed Numberthinkers advice and save (or reduce those credit card bills) whilst they can afford to before the inevitable tax rises required to service the balloning national debt arrive.

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  • thinkitthrough
    Love rating 0
    thinkitthrough said

    These are uncharted waters, but the combination of base rate cuts and powerful fiscal stimulus will help, but only with a lag - minimum 6-9 months. But unless credit markets are freed up there will be a relatively slow recovery. It seems very likely that HMG will need to take more measures to ensure this happens, perhaps taking larger shares in financial institutions, nationalising outright, or 'quantitative easing' or a combination thereof.

    Whatever happens in the next year or so, in the longer term, I'd expect to see higher real interest rates on all financial products - mortgages and personal loans in particular, as the economy is re-balanced towards less personal consumption, higher personal saving, lower imports and higher exports.

    I can't see inflation and interest rates returning to extreme levels - the Bank of England would be expected to act quickly to avoid this, meaning interest rates would rise for a time, but then settle, maybe eventually falling again a little. That doesn't mean that inflation won't rise temporarily though.

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  • gordonbanks42
    Love rating 11
    gordonbanks42 said

    A good article, esp in that it points out that this policy creates winners and losers, but here is a couple of things it doesn't mention which seem relevant to the overall effect on the economy:

    1. Yes, some borrowers are on fixed rates so borrowers are not all going to benefit from a cut, but then some savers are on fixed rates also (e.g. yer man with the 7% bond) and they would not be harmed by one. So the question is "What is the balance of savings vs borrowings on variable rates or short-term fixed rates?"

    2. The tax system works asymmetrically. Savers (if they are on variable rates) are hurt by rate cuts, but only to the extent of what would have been left over after they pay tax on the interest. Tax is going to lessen the cut by between 20% and 40% when measured in terms of its effect on spending power. On the other hand, a rate cut feeds through 100% to borrowers (on variable rates) as an increase in their net spending power. Many will choose to save at least some of that, in the present circumstances.

    At the moment HMG doesn't want to be making people richer in ways that feed straight back into a higher tax bill.

    A thought: if banks and BSes aren't coming up with decent savings rates for depositors, why not cut out the middle man and clear off down to Zopa? I understand the rates on offer there are very much better than elsewhere and the default risk is still very low indeed.

    Maybe Zopa should start a new market for business loans. That would prevent the banks from getting in the way of the process of financing the nation's businesses, which under present circumstances would be no bad thing. It would probably provide even higher interest rates to lenders, too, given that the risk would be higher.

    Another thought: British small business are, I understand, quite unusual in the extent to which they rely on debt (esp overdrafts, the shortest-term kind of debt I can think of) rather than longer-term loans or equity to finance themselves. Situations like the present should point business owners towards finding stabler ways of financing their businesses. I wonder whether it will make any difference in the long term...

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  • KESSY777
    Love rating 0
    KESSY777 said

    Overuse of uppercase will be tamed (you can edit your comment to prevent this):

    i have a possible solution for the house price crash - !! why doess n't the government oblige all the mortgage providers to homogenise all the mortgages and drop them all to a sensible level like 4 % for everybody not just the lucky few who aren't on tracker mortgages . after all the mortgage companies still make a fortune out of us . its no use dropping interest rates below the floor --the banks et al won't go any lower and yes, the poor boys still have to make a profit .

    after this homogenisation process , get rid of stupid mortgages -ref northern rock et al and re introduce some sensible lending for a sensible housing industry

    ah , well , pipe dreams

    And now here are some pictures to help lighten the mood

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  • mer2k
    Love rating 0
    mer2k said

    Savers are actually better off now as inflation this year is likely to be 0% (or lower) and interest rates around 1%. This is better than interest at 5% and inflation at 5% as was the case 6 months ago - it just feels bad eating into your savings rather than spending interest, but changing your viewpoint to see that inflation eats away at the value of your savings, and then the difference between inflation and interest rates becomes more important.

    Watch out for high inflation to follow this deflation, and bite even more people!

    Can we have an article on the latest bank bail out as it looks to me like smoke and mirrors that will not help UK business, but will help banks the world over a tiny bit at huge expense to the UK tax payer. Another failure by this Government.

    I recommend allowing BoE to loan to banks in the short term at base rate (plus 1%) only for new loans to UK businesses and mortgages - this will inject money into the system, which is what is needed.

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  • rovibaby
    Love rating 0
    rovibaby said

    gordonbanks42.

    Situations like the present are unpresendented. In business how can you plan for something no-one in their right mind would have ever forecast happening two or three years ago. A bank not being a safe bet!

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  • whiterabbit93307
    Love rating 0
    whiterabbit93307 said

    If the deals are not available for first time buyers then what is the point of cutting interest rates agai? Sure it will benefit the tracker contingency who i am sure are very happy with the rate cuts and if they are smart are ploughing all this money back into their mortgage repayments.

    But you need first time buyers to stimulate the housing market and if the best deal you can get is a 5.6% fixed rate at 90%LTV is it any wonder first time buyers are hesitant to join the property rollercoaster when they see the BOE interest rate is 1%?

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  • rovibaby
    Love rating 0
    rovibaby said

    Spot on whiterabbit3307

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  • Strebor19
    Love rating 0
    Strebor19 said

    Right or wrong the Government want people to spend money to get the ecconamy going again. So a cut in interest rates will put more money in some peoples pockets which they may spend, and discourage people from saving thus getting them to spend there cash, of course many will but the question is will enough? I for one, like many others know that just around the corner we will be hammered with higher Taxes and probably interest rates, especially if the IMF have to bail us out again! So the money I am saving each month on my Tracker Mortgage is going straight into clearing down as much Dept as I can before this Government takes all my hard earned away. Note, the IMF have made Iceland set there interest rates at 20%! At that rate I would have no option but to hand back the keys of my House to the Building Society. The problem is there is no confidence. Dropping interest rates does nothing to increase confidence, so is probably usless, infact it adds to the lack of confidence. In reality we need to take the pain of this recession on the nose, cut public spending and use the money to cut Taxes to private Business and encourage exports! setting interest rates at a reasonable level of say 5%. Its what has to happen anyway, the only question is when? Post Brown's Government me thinks?

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  • thinkitthrough
    Love rating 0
    thinkitthrough said

    The first priority is to try to get the economy moving again. Only then will there be a chance of a recovery in the housing market - special measures re the housing market may help at the margin, but will not promote growth overall.

    I hope above all though, that we emerge from this with a more sanguine view of what is ultimately needed to produce sustainable economic growth - the housing market shouldn't be the locus around which the economy seems to move, rather there needs to be more balance in the economy. Only this will ultimately lead to sustainable economic growth and increases in wealth.

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  • BarneyMStevenson
    Love rating 0
    BarneyMStevenson said

    Big Freeze - Pause for Thought

    Thinking outside the box is needed here.

    Are we finally learning the folly of relying on the housing market and private borrowing for the supply of money/liquidity in our economy? Since the 1980s the perceived wisdom has been that private, individual debt is a better thing than national debt. It is said to be a safer bet to have lots of individual borrowers who can be bundled up together and sold on as securities by the men and women in sharp suits in our ever more complicated banking sector.

    Or is it? Hasn't the current age of toxic debt given us reason to stop, draw breath and question what we have taken as economic givens for a generation?

    It is the state's role to pump money into the economy when levels of liquidity drop and threaten to freeze over? There are plenty of people who think that it isn't. Or is it each person's responsibility to get down to the shops and get spending?

    As we recover from record snow falls in the UK, hang up our toboggans and return to work, we are repeatedly told of the huge cost to the economy of our being off work for a couple of days and not going out shopping. But what about the positive effects of this? How many tonnes of CO2 emissions were saved by people not commuting for a couple of days? How much benefit was there in being able to connect with friends and neighbours unexpectedly through the shared experience of enjoying the snow? These are not economic benefits, to be sure, but they are benefits nevertheless.

    Isn’t there another way of thinking about this stuff?

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  • bigdogfan
    Love rating 0
    bigdogfan said

    Harvey - another excellent article thanks! I agree with you - another base rate cut wont solve the problem (although for me it would mean another injection of spending money as my mortgage is cut yet again - now paying about 60% less than this time last year). I'm using most of the money to clear debts and prepare for the inevitable rise in rates again. Liquidity is the problem as rightly pointed out in the article. What I cant understand is why the Gov. hasnt used its bail outs to force the banks to inject money into the economy with business loans and mortgages etc. Loans with strings attached are the byword in international aid - seems to me that the tax payer has a right to demand something back from the banks apart from interest on loans.

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  • colin106
    Love rating 0
    colin106 said

    BarneyMStevenson

    Please don't be taken in by the "global warming" myth. CO2 is NOT responsible. All the facts below can be verified by you and others who are concerned by the enormous financial implications of the CO2 scam - which is promoted by governments for the huge tax take involved.

    Here are three indisputable scientific facts about climate that are sufficient on their own to throttle any claims of manmade global warming. First, we know from studies of Antarctic ice that, over the last 650,000 years or so, warmer temperatures have preceded increases in atmospheric carbon dioxide levels by hundreds, if not thousands of years. The ice studies indicate that the carbon-dioxide-causes-global warming theory is precisely backwards.

    Second, during the 20th century, there is simply no correlation between carbon dioxide emissions and global temperature. Not only did most of the century’s temperature rise occur before most of the century’s manmade greenhouse gas emissions, but during 1940-1975 global temperatures actually declined while atmospheric carbon dioxide and carbon dioxide emission levels steadily increased.

    Finally, the ultimate test of a scientific theory is whether it has predictive value. We used Newton’s laws of physics, for example, to land men on the moon. Unfortunately, there are no climate models that predict trends and changes in global climate with any degree of accuracy. Think about the recent failures with hurricane season predictions or even the risk of relying on what your local weatherman predicts for tomorrow’s weather - and you’ll start to get an idea of how far away science is from predicting global climate 10, 50 and 100 years from now.

    Although none of this is rocket science or a state secret, our government is nevertheless on the verge of saddling our society with draconian energy-use and rationing laws that will harm our economy and reduce our standard of living. How did we find ourselves in this position?

    You may be surprised to learn that it’s not only or even mostly due to the persuasiveness and persistence of environmental activists. After all, how many people really believe Al Gore and Greenpeace? Ironically, we’re in crushing jaws of global warming regulation thanks to big business and other rent-seekers, including Gore, who hope to profit from new laws.

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  • bigdogfan
    Love rating 0
    bigdogfan said

    Ref the increases in interest rates on unsecured debt. This is one area where HMG really should introduce more regulation and force the sharks out there to reduce their rates and stop ripping people off. This would certainly inject money into the economy. I dont want to see another borrowing frenzy though because this has been one of the causes of the problems facing the economy. Sensible lending with sensible rates is what is needed.

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  • mamgu
    Love rating 0
    mamgu said

    My mortgage was repaid many years ago, so bank rate cuts don't help me. I now get a pitiful 1.9% on my ISA with Barclays, this started as 6.9%. This has had an impact on my spending, and I suspect this is true for others in my situation. Instead of cutting interest rates, why didn't the Government reduce the amount of income tax we pay surely this would have kick started the economy. Or am I being naive?

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  • Numberthinker
    Love rating 7
    Numberthinker said

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  • Numberthinker
    Love rating 7
    Numberthinker said

    Colin106 Let's not divert to a discussion on the climate change "It is!" "It isn't!" argument à la Channel4.

    I can tell you are talking secondhand nonsense, the give-away being your reference to Newton's Laws of Physics. Newton managed three "laws of MOTION" and yes, they underlie the physics of getting man onto the moon. He even did quite a good job on gravitation. But laws of physics? There were many other contributors - even I have a principle of physics named (by some!) after me.

    As for global warming, let's put it this way. If I were in a burning house I wouldn't spend much time arguing whether the heat was caused by society or natural causes, or if the government were to blame. I'd remove any source of heat I had contributed and I would know, from the laws of physics, that the fire would not be so hot as a consequence. Of course I would swamp it in water etc and it would be messy. Denial will get you nowhere. If you wish to turn yourself to the abuses by big business of the global warming mess we are in, you would be doing everyone a favour.

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  • supasap
    Love rating 19
    supasap said

    good post from barneymstevenson..... why don't we think differently..... it is annoying to see those silly calculations about the economy being "crippled" by the snow and the country at a "standstill" - all those products and services that we were so keen on producing during those lost days...... what exactly were they and wasn't there enough stock in the shops and shelves to sustain us (including food in our fridges and freezers) - seems to me the crisis of overproduction is all around when my other half takes me to the latest shopping malls..... I reckon we could go for months without producing the "vital" goods and services before we would suffer..... we are just so rich in this country

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  • rovibaby
    Love rating 0
    rovibaby said

    mamgu...here's one 'outside the box for you'.

    As a saver you are not being given very good rates at present. Yet as a property developer I am charged extortionate arrangement fees and interest at an LTV of just 60%. Yet the profits we can make even in a downturn equate to roughly a third of the GDV. So lets assume forty or fifty investors decided to invest directly into a managed investment fund with a guaranteed underwritten 10% annual return on a maximum £20,000 investment, would it interest you and fellow savers?

    Providing affordable new homes, making money for savers/investors and by-passing the banks altogether just sounds like a solution to me.

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  • mrbigbathstew
    Love rating 1
    mrbigbathstew said

    well done DIYFixer, you're really amazing.. I wish I was as great as you, with your truly brilliant sense of foresight, nay, one might say clairvoyant abilities

    I guess Im just ignorant, trying to do something "safe" with my finances... I hope I learn like you did that "safe" is a stupid ideal to aim for, especially with something frivolous like a house

    Although if you're really that great, you might have noticed you're not paying off any extra capital, it's just the interest element thats changing. And later in your mortgage term, there will probably be a greater capital element, so if rates go up, as they quite possibly will, you will be stung more than most

    Sour grapes, maybe, but I hope it happens, just so YOU won't be so smug! "Foresight" is just hindsight where you got lucky

    Oh, and Colin106, I think you've slightly missed the point of this article, its about a thing called "finance", which is not the same as the thing that you describe, which is "global warming". An easy mistake to make...

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  • GalacticHero
    Love rating 0
    GalacticHero said

    Colin106, if you want to discuss Climate Change there's a board for that.

    http://boards.fool.co.uk/Messages.asp?mid=11426680&bid=51649

    There you'll find some people who share your views and others who will be happy to direct you to the real science.

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  • Ugovwhatajoke
    Love rating 0
    Ugovwhatajoke said

    Overuse of uppercase will be tamed (you can edit your comment to prevent this):

    i agree with the article and a lot of the comments made

    the solution and it may be over simplified

    first - scrap stamp duty - second re introduce tax deduction on mortgages -

    common sense really

    And now here are some pictures to help lighten the mood

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  • Max878
    Love rating 37
    Max878 said

    Rovibaby... as I understand it, this is what Zopa are trying to do. Someone please correct me if I've misunderstood but I believe that they use private investors' money to lend to businesses and individuals at lower than average rates, thus allowing the banks to step away from the borrowing and lending process as they are clearly no longer interested in it.

    BarneyMStevenson... Interesting to hear your bizarre thoughts on global warming in this thread on interest rates. I wonder if you'd be kind enough to share your views on Darwinism?

    Ugovwhatajoke... I have a hangover, so please stop shouting!

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  • chajun
    Love rating 0
    chajun said

    If we are to have zero interest rates I would suggest dear Mr Brown that you slash the tax we savers have to pay. Fairs Fair But not at the moment!

    this is interesting wxcuse the pun.

    http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/Savtax2/#detail

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  • Max878
    Love rating 37
    Max878 said

    Sincere apologies to BarneyMStevenson, My post should have been directed to Colin106.

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  • LateDeveloper
    Love rating 22
    LateDeveloper said

    Base rate cuts are useless unless there is a will by Government to reflect these changes with a positive attitude to act on behalf of the public, but that is something this government lacks in abundance, only wanting to help the bankers.

    Unless the Government does something about other forms of credit, more businesses will face tough times and joe public will still not spend on the high street if they are sensible.

    Any benefits gained by rate cuts for home owners should just be paid off the mortgage, I have a standing order to pay for the mortgage, and the amount has not been changed, it is only those with direct debits that will apparently gain.

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  • supasap
    Love rating 19
    supasap said

    rovibaby any chance of explaining GDV?

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  • Ugovwhatajoke
    Love rating 0
    Ugovwhatajoke said

    sorry Max 878 - new to this forum and did not realise cap lock on - hope no one else suffered - what are you doing with a hangover at 13:28?

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  • Max878
    Love rating 37
    Max878 said

    Ugovwhatajoke - Thanks! Please put my my grumpiness down to the hangover. Neither are usual. I no longer have a mortgage, thank God, but I agree with you. Off now to try and find some high-yielding oil and utility shares on which to spend what's left of my savings. Perhaps a mixture of oil and water is the answer?

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  • rovibaby
    Love rating 0
    rovibaby said

    GDV -- Gross Developed Value supasap

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  • rovibaby
    Love rating 0
    rovibaby said

    Max878

    Zopa? Please enlighten me Max878. Would like to send them a business plan.

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  • ronat42
    Love rating 62
    ronat42 said

    Harvey speaks wisely. This government is doing what it always does when a problem arises, chuck money at it. So what if it's someone elses money and so long as at least 10% gets to do a bit of good and 90% goes into fat man's coffers. Yes, they've stuffed my pension, stuffed my income tax, (I am still out of pocket on the 10% fiasco) and now they are stuffing my savings, but to the point.

    Why are so many householders in trouble? Because interest rates were held low to encourage people to buy buy buy. House prices rocketed and then interest rates increased back to a more realistic level and ...... Oh Dear!

    They have now reduced rates and who benefits? People who are in serious trouble and many businesses don't because they are seen as a bad risk and have their homes reposessed and businesses destroyed. All this does is to destroy viable businesses and condemn people who are trying to bankruptcy. Who benefits? The overpaid legal profession who adminster the collapses and drain huge sums from poor souls who are already in difficulty.

    Low rates are destroying the pound and pushing up oil prices so who gains there?

    What we need is a government with a plan for a sustainable model and not one which just pokes at things and judges things on short term results.

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  • Max878
    Love rating 37
    Max878 said

    rovibaby...

    I don't know if it's what you're looking for, but just google zopa and you'll get all the info. I hope it can help you. I love the idea.

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  • Wildot
    Love rating 0
    Wildot said

    Banks! Idiot and uncooperative ones at that. My wife and I own mortgage free a house worth even today somewhere between £600K and £700K. I need to have available for a couple of weeks £25K and asked the bank for an overdraft facility. Well! The Ums and Ahs and concerns were unbelievable especially as I have had this facility before and I have far more that £25K in various accounts and ISAs with the same bank.I am also a share holder in it. However, I did not want to lose the interst and break the ISAs etc. Eventually I told them that as a customer of 40 years standing I expected better treatement and accordingly was making arrangements to transfer my moneies elsewhere. That did the trick and I got what I wanted. In my case there was no risk at all to the bank and they would have made a few pounds for nothing so what chance does some one not so fortunate as I am have of borrowing money for business or mortgage. Any one had the same exerience?

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  • matchmade
    Love rating 38
    matchmade said

    GDV means Gross Development Value - the value of the houses when you sell them. From this you deduct the cost of land, the construction costs, interest charges, fees paid to architects planners batwatchers aboriculturists estate-agents and other consultants, Section 106 "contributions" (a.k.a. taxes paid to the council), and so on, before being left with a profit.

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  • matchmade
    Love rating 38
    matchmade said

    Max878 - the trouble with Zopa is it has a very small turnover and the amount you can in practice borrow is tiny - a few thousand pounds at most. I know that will be a lot of money to some people but it's not a practical amount if you're trying to run a business. Rovibaby was proposing 40-50 people contributing up to £20K each, which is £1 million if 50 people put in the maximum. This is way out of Zopa's league.

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  • matchmade
    Love rating 38
    matchmade said

    rovibaby - you've been getting away from the point of this Foolish thread, but I also have had your idea for a property investment club to take advantage of the downturn and buy land with real development potential at cheaper prices. What part of the UK are you based in? I'm in the Thames Valley.

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  • DIYfixer
    Love rating 0
    DIYfixer said

    Can I say mrbigbathstew thank you very much for your very Christian like wish of ill upon myself and my family. I did not realise that I had made a personal attack on your well-being. Have I hit a raw nerve? As to your statement of smug, if that's what you have read in to my statements then fine, all I was trying to point out was that I disagreed with the author as I had benefited from the rate cuts and done my bit by saving some and spending some. This I believed was the whole point of the various interest rate cuts. On the reverse side when interest rates where higher I did not begrudge the fact that those who had taken out their fixed rate deals where at the time paying less than myself! I believed that interest rates would fall, I took out a tracker from day one, if it's luck that I believed that, then so be it, it's luck.

    In your haste to chastise myself however, I think you got a bit confused about mortgages and the capital element, you see the only thing that has decreased is the interest on my mortgage, the capital is being paid off at the same rate it has always been every time I make a payment, so is decreasing. What obviously can change again is the interest rate, which is why I said 'I will be keeping a close eye' on this area.

    I still believe that if you can hang on to your job, now is a good time to be spending as there are a lot of bargains to be had. The fact that my company, despite operating in the construction market, made the same profit in 2008 as it did in 2007, and able to pay bonuses, I thought was a good example of the fact that I do not think things are as bad out there as the media are portraying.

    So I will keep looking out for bargains, you do as you see fit and I wish you and yours all the happiness in the world doing it.

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  • liam5000
    Love rating 0
    liam5000 said

    Right,

    Lets just set the record straight. We can all play table tennis with our ideas on how this rate cut will/wont help but here are the simple facts.......

    The Bank of England aren't interested in YOU or ME. They are interested in what benefits the MAJORITY of the UK.

    Given this, they will put in place measures that benefit most of the UK population.

    If everyone in the UK signed a five year fixed mortage deal at 5.5% three years ago, we'd all be crying right now....however if we all signed up for a 1.5%ABR tracker three years ago, we'dd al be laughing (all the way to the bank :o)).

    Get over it. Some will lose, some will win, that's just the way the cookie crumbles unfortuantely.

    about 70% of the UK property is mortgaged. SO for all those on a tracker or Variable rate deal, or even those approaching the end of their fixed-rate deal tie in period, you'll all be saving (assumning no cash savings).

    AS this represents that majority of the UK population, this is why they are making their decision to reduce the base rate.

    Personally, for me, I have had two fixed rate sub-prime mortagages (total borrowing £300,000) with Redstone Mortgages and Birmingham Midshires for the last two years, paying on avergae 8%APR. I have genuinely struggles for these two years with not a penny to scratch my arse with.

    However, at the time of taking out these mortgages, we all *thought* a base rate of around 5.5% was *low* so we all tied outselves in to fixed rate deals, thinking we were securing out furture. little did we know......

    Long story short....my fixed rate deals come to an end in march 2009, I I will see my monthly mortgage payment drop by £500 month....£500 a month I can put back on the highstreet, or make my weekly shop in tescos (which is becoming MORE and MORE expensive)a little easier.

    It all swing in round abouts...some win...some lose....that's just the way it is....I've paid £000's more than prime borrowers over the last couple of years, now it's us (the nation's) sub-prime borrowers who can start having a slightly better quality of life.

    Good luck to all...

    Liam

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  • liam5000
    Love rating 0
    liam5000 said

    PS.......We're all winging/gloating about the current market...lets take a minute to think of all the first time buyers who are totally UNABLE to even CONSIDER buying a property at the moment......

    by the sounds of it, at the majority of us in this forum do own our own houses, think of the poort sods who are renting but just WISH they could buy.....

    Liam

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  • kindredclive
    Love rating 0
    kindredclive said

    we have come to the end of a fixed deal in jan 09 and are currently on lenders SVR at 4.3%-better than the 5.5% fixed rate we had. We have a new deal secured but are sitting tight before we complete on this at end of april. We will fix for five years,currenlty at 4.89% but hopefully a little less come april.

    We can all spout of about trackers and fixed and this rate and that, at the end of the day one mans solution is another mans problem. We will fix our rate again as it suits our needs and wishes and historically fixed rates are low at the moment. We will use the extra money to slash 3 years off our mortgage term but continue to pay around the same as we did on our previous fixed deal.

    I believe things would not be as bad if it wasnt for the media, I live in norfolk and yes people are losing jobs etc but those of us lucky enough to still be work still have the same money we did last year,maybe a little more due the rate cuts, we spend some we save some no difference to last year.

    Most of the people on trackers now will find themselves above 75% LTV when rates start to rise therefore be very limited as to what new fixed deals they could jump on to, those of us who opt for fixed rates now will be happy like the tracker rate payers are now, its all give and take ,no real need to let it upset you!

    Any way I have savings myself that were at one time earning me 7-8% interest,now i may as well take those savings and stick them in my matress,its not just the retired who are hit by a lack of interest paid on savings!

    there is no easy way out of this mess,the banks should be forced to start lending again to every one,in particular the 1st time buyers as they now have the best Base Rates ever available to them along with lower house prices but they cant get there eager little paws on a mortgage!

    I would by a house now, if you plan to live in it for around 5 years plus does it really matter that you may lose 10% on it this year? im sure you gain that back and more over 5 or so years

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  • kindredclive
    Love rating 0
    kindredclive said

    however i am now off to bed to dream of far away places in the sun with surf and dolphins,where coconuts are the local currency and the only worry is who caught the biggest red snapper of the day.........things can only get better Fools!!

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  • supasap
    Love rating 19
    supasap said

    no one responded to my suggestion of the banks being nationalised per se ie don't wait until they are in trouble..... just have them lending and creaming it in to reduce the tax burden on the rest of us..... win win it sounds like to me..... are there any examples of this in the world

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  • blackcatford
    Love rating 0
    blackcatford said

    Two points:

    One - BOE is cutting interest rates not to help borrowers nor to hinder savers. They are being cut to stop inflation going too low. That is there job!

    Two - This labour government with its eye on helping the poorest in our society ie OAPs living on savings interest, should raise substantially personal tax allowances for over 65s in the budget. This will offset some of the savings interest they have lost due to low interest rates on their savings.

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  • blackcatford
    Love rating 0
    blackcatford said

    Ref my last post. Para One. Delete "there", insert their".

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