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Stop Blaming Borrowers For This Crisis

Harvey Jones
by Lovemoney Staff Harvey Jones on 29 January 2009  |  Comments 190 comments

Harvey Jones takes a look at who is really to blame for the credit crunch.

It is widely accepted that the credit crunch is partly our own fault - yes, yours and mine - for being greedy, and borrowing and spending too much in the good times.

Commentators talk as if we all spent the last decade frantically maxing out our credit cards and plundering ever more equity from our super-sized mortgages.

In other words, we got what we deserved. So everybody don your hairshirts and feel really, really bad about yourselves, and be glad the crunch has come along to flay some collective sense into us.

Repo rethink

There is a shred of truth in this caricature. We did, after all, borrow £1.35 trillion on mortgages, loans and credit cards, more than our GDP of £1.33 trillion. And we can't push all the blame onto the banks, we're adults, we're the ones who put our thumbprints on the credit application forms.

But most of the borrowing was on mortgages, secured against our largest and most solid asset, and the strange truth is that most of us could afford it.

In 2007, just 27,100 properties were repossessed, a meagre 0.23% of the UK's 11.8 million mortgages. Just 12 months ago, less than 0.5% of borrowers were more than six months in arrears. This suggests that right up until the crunch, the huge majority of people were able to service their obligations.

That doesn't strike me like a nation of debt junkies collectively gasping for every last fix of credit.

Play your cards wrong

There were some lending obscenities, of course. Sub-prime got out of control. Northern Rock should never have got away with offering 125% mortgages, and mortgage brokers shouldn't have flogged them to desperate first-time buyers in such huge numbers.

But I don't blame the FTBs for that, they were simply desperate to get on the property ladder before it was whisked away for good.

My point is that in an apparently healthy economy, with employment strong and a Chancellor who had repeatedly claimed to have ended boom and bust, people were taking a rational decision to borrow money at historically low rates, mostly using it to buy a rapidly appreciating asset.

Many suspected that we were investing in a house of cards, but you couldn't be sure of this at the time.

Of course, a good number abused easy credit, but the vast majority didn't. If the banks hadn't decided to convert themselves into high-stakes casinos, we might - might - still have enjoyed the long-predicted soft landing.

Triple-A rated bad guys

It wasn't you and me who sold dodgy mortgages to cash-strapped US citizens, then chopped them up and flogged them off as mortgage-backed securities to gullible institutions across the planet.

Neither did we honour this junk with a AAA grading (that was the ratings agencies). We'd never even heard of credit default swaps, until they popped up to plague our lives.

And I don't think the general public can be blamed for the disastrous failure of Gordon Brown's tripartite regulatory system. Or the repeated failures of the Financial Services Authority to protect consumers from predatory financial services professionals.

We're the ones who have been lumbered with unlimited liabilities by our profligate bankers and inept politicians, so don't try and dump the blame on us as well.

The blame game

So why are so many people willing to blame the supposedly greed-addled public for what has happened to the economy?

Partly, I would argue, it's the surprisingly Puritan nature of the British character. We knew we'd pay for the good times in the end, but still allowed ourselves to enjoy the boom while it lasted. And now we feel bad.

Plus we also despised the vulgarity that easy-money spawned, whether it was a yummy-mummy ploughing her brand new Chelsea tractor down a crowded street to drop Jemima off at her fee-paying school, or some in yer face upstart flaunting his cash in Burberry cap and gold chains. See, I didn't use the word chav.

These social caricatures really annoy us, perhaps because we're more likely to encounter them than, say, Sir Fred Goodwin, Adam Applegarth or Gordon Brown, or any of the faceless investment bankers that got us all into this mess.

But these vulgar stereotypes aren't to blame for bringing the global financial system to its knees.

Do they mean us?

The public's biggest sin in the boom years was to forsake saving for tomorrow, particularly in pensions, in favour of spending today. But again, I would blame commission-hungry financial services spivs, weak-kneed regulators and Gordon Brown's multi-billion pound pension tax raids before pointing a finger at the public.

Most people are financially rational, and adapt to the prevailing circumstances. Witness the way people have switched from spending the spare equity in their properties, to paying it down.

But they need guidance, and a little encouragement to be responsible, and in that, bankers, insurers, central bankers, government ministers and regulators have failed miserably.

They're the ones who should be flagellating themselves into a frenzy of remorse and repentance.

The strange thing is, none of them seems the least bit sorry.

More: How Britons Have Lost Their Place In The Sun 

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Comments (190)

  • TMFHomer
    Love rating 0
    TMFHomer said

    The blame lies solely with the banks and building societies not with consumers. Most folk have been offered multiple loans, multiple credit cards, without understanding how expensive it can be to repay the debt if they are mis-used. If the banks made it harder for consumers to acquire credit in the first place then consumers wouldn't be living above their means driving fast cars, living in large over-priced properties not able to afford the repayments on their mortgage or to sell the property without making a huge financial loss with negative equity. I'll be running for PM at the next election if anyone fancies voting for me.

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  • Cliff D'Arcy
    Love rating 26
    Cliff D'Arcy said

    A terrific and insightful article, Harvey. Do keep it up. :0)

    Cliff

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  • AleisterCrowley
    Love rating 5
    AleisterCrowley said

    With respect TMFHomer that's utter tosh !!

    It's like blaming pie shops for obesity.

    People need to take responsibility for their own actions rather than trying to shift the blame to banks etc. Just because someone offers you a loan doesn't mean you HAVE to accept it.

    I've spent the last 15 years saving and living within my means. Now I'm indirectly paying for other people's irresponsibility and I'm not happy...

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  • formr
    Love rating 0
    formr said

    I would suggest that credit is addictive. When people begin to become indebted borrowing more often seems like the only way out. So it's not like blaming pie shops for making us fat there comes a point where institutions should not lend.

    The CAB's current stats show that if their average client were to pay off their debts at a rate that they can afford they woul dbe paying for 93 years. With a life expectancy of ~80 in this country that's clearly irresponsble lending.

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  • AleisterCrowley
    Love rating 5
    AleisterCrowley said

    ' there comes a point where institutions should not lend'

    ..surely, a point where individuals should not borrow !!!

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  • Fancyfree50
    Love rating 1
    Fancyfree50 said

    Excellent piece.It's just soooo convenient for the bankers to blame consumers and switch attention away from their own culpability.

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  • licence
    Love rating 0
    licence said

    The pie shop analogy doesn't really work because any resulting obesity has no impact upon the pie shop's business.

    The banks should have worried about who they were lending to because if those individuals can't pay it back and there's no assets to seize to cover the debt then it impacts their business and quite badly if circumstances dramatically change - as we have all seen

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  • captainjameson
    Love rating 0
    captainjameson said

    agree with AleisterCrowley...utter tosh! People need to start taking personal responsibility.

    How can you suggest most people are financially rational, immedietely after pointing out how little people have saved. I'm not blaming public but we certainly played our part, banks and politicians just providde the rope to hang ourselves.

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  • AleisterCrowley
    Love rating 5
    AleisterCrowley said

    I'm not suggesting the banks are innocent - they cynically exploited the situation - but it takes two to tango...

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  • supasap
    Love rating 19
    supasap said

    why blame anyone and moreover why is there a problem.......As someone who studied economics albeit ages ago I thought it pertinent that Noddy Holder from Slade fame posed some childlike questions on the crisis on Have I got News for You programme...... he said "all this lost money..... who had it and where has it gone"..... to which the more educated Ian Hislop replied slightly arrogantly "well I think you'll find it didn't really exist" which prompted Noddy to say "well what's the problem then" ........ resulting in guffaws of laughter but how many on the panel or audience or on TMF bulletin board could argue against such simplicity...... it is not even paper money it is zeroes and ones on computer discs.... nothing real so why worry?

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  • Terrapin1
    Love rating 0
    Terrapin1 said

    Credit is an illusion- it's an ego boost for those who want prestige without the effort. Debt creates delusion- people get the idea that they can borrow from one source to pay another- urged to do so by 'balance transfers'.

    FSA were down the pub for the last decade, because frankly no-one regulated the banks and no-one prevented multiple credit card applications- often more than 10 cards being juggled as the inevitable loomed.

    REGULATION REGULATION REGULATION- it's what the FSA are paid to do.

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  • Coypu
    Love rating 0
    Coypu said

    Fantastic article. Great points really well put.

    The central point is spot on - the credit crisis was the work of banks, credit ratings agencies and other financial institutions - pure and simple. The causes of the collapse are deeply rooted in the structure of the modern international financial system and the way it has been used for the last decade by banks and governments alike to keep the money rolling.

    Certainly the regulators were asleep on the job (or had been called to heel by governments keen to bask in the glory of all that 'wealth' created by the financial services indutry.) They were all keen to" Hear no evil, See no evil and Speak no evil" lest they break the spell.

    Consumers, at least outside America, really had no part in it. The zillions of $ of AAA rated junk was created by and sold to banks and then to pension funds and other investment firms.

    I don't think we are all to blame, we haven't all borrowed too much, many people have no debt at all and the vast majority of people have debt they are managing quite well. Some people in the UK might well be in difficulties because they have borrowed too much but their defaults are a gnat's bite on the bum of this elephant sized problem.

    Any idea that this gigantic mess was caused by a few feckless idiots "abusing credit" (how do you do that?) when they should have been "regulated" into line is just coblers.

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  • Staintunerider
    Love rating 0
    Staintunerider said

    You are right to mention the credit ratings agencies, Moody's, Standard and Poors, and Fitch are the main ones. They haven't even accepted their part in all of this. I know these organisations and let me tell you they are arrogant outdated dinosaurs resting on their laurels !

    During the boom they would have given a AAA rating to plastic dog poop out of hong kong. Do you know how much they charge for their services ? I can tell you it's a lot ! The firms that use them have to use them as they can then say they practiced due diligence because they checked the ratings of instruments they invested in> It's all about back covering. Oh and now S&P has been giving advice to the Senate...oh don't make me laugh, they should be charged with Malpractice and their boards sacked...they have got out of this scot free and are still charging millions for their ratings

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  • Staintunerider
    Love rating 0
    Staintunerider said

    Oh and how many have been sacked at the FSA ?

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  • deloco121
    Love rating 0
    deloco121 said

    Excellent article.

    I'm sick of being blamed for this whole mess just because I am a borrower.

    I'm one of those with a mortgage (used to build my own house. This self buld saved me money compared to the ridiculous inflated house prices at the time). I also have numerous credit cards and one loan. However I still live within my means. I still manage to save money.

    Having debt in the form of mortgages and loans and c/c's does not mean that I am living outwith my means if I can afford to pay these things off every month. I took loans out to pay for things which would have taken too long to save for. There was nobody moaning then when we, the borrowers, were putting money into the shops and businesses and banks were happy to lend to people who could supposedly afford these loans. We all had to pass credit checks to be accepted for these things.

    This mess comes down to those doing the lending to people who should not have been able to get credit. The blame lies at their door. Why doesn't Mr Crowley blame the government for not saving for a rainy day. They've had plenty of opportunities to do so.

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  • dontpan1c
    Love rating 0
    dontpan1c said

    Well I entirely blame the media fair and square, swamping the public with programmes portraying the ideal lifestyle as one of living in a large property, with a buy-to-let in terms of your long term pension fund, a property in Spain, a Chelsea tractor (only in black of course)to take your kids the 200 metres to school , a boob job for the wife, two exotic holidays a year, but critically all paid for by credit. How many TV programmes have I turned off in the last ten years where this is seen as the way we should all strive to live.

    Then follow these programmes up with adverts offering quick and affordable loans and what have you got? A credit crisis of course.

    But there again, I'm sure someone out there could find an angle to have a go at the public sector if they tried hard enough!

    Dontpan1c

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  • AllTorque
    Love rating 0
    AllTorque said

    The reason most people I know feel bad about this whole crisis is that their houses are falling in value dramatically. This has left many of them locked in negative equity and effectively unable to make any more decisions about their future because they can't afford to move house: they borrowed sensibly at a level they could afford but now find themselves in a financial straightjacket.

    House prices rose so rapidly because the level of demand was fueled by the banks and other financial institutions who threw away their long established lending criteria. Low interest rates meant that houses were more affordable than they had been for a long time but the slackening of lending criteria meant a whole tidal wave of potential buyers were allowed into the market pushing prices through the roof.

    Had the banks not been so greedy and retained their long established multiplyers for salary and loan to value percentages we would not have seen such fast rates of growth in property prices and a lot of our current problems would not exist.

    Until negative equity is no longer a problem I do not see how we are going to dig ourselves out of this hole. We have a population largely unable to move and certainly unwilling to spend or take risks.

    It wasn't only at home though that the banks messed up. They were all out lending money to anyone who asked for it, all over the world, without proper due dilligence, just to sustain the egos of their top management who wanted to be seen as world players: nothing wrong with wanting to be world players but there is something wrong when it involves gambling with the money and security of ordinary people in the full knowledge that you have nothing to lose because you have just put £2m into your pension fund and taken a similar amount as a bonus.

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  • bambip67
    Love rating 0
    bambip67 said

    I have to agree with AleisterCrowley....stop blaming banks & building societies for lending. That is one of their functions.

    People have stopped taking responsibility for their actions, after all, they took the cash. It seems part of our blame culture..."Can't be my fault that I had my nice Caribbean holiday when I shouldn't really go because I can't afford it right now."

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  • JoeEasedale
    Love rating 174
    JoeEasedale said

    This article is unbalanced - in that it tries to put most of the blame onto the banks and lets the borrowers off the hook. This is nothing but propaganda.

    I have thought deeply about where the blame lies and would like to share my conclusions for your consideration.

    20% Government - too little regulation

    30% Borrower - No one forced them to borrow, and whilst most was on mortgage - borrowing on motgage for holidays and cars is not prudent other than under proper fiscal household control - which has generally not happened.

    50% Lenders - I would have said that the banks were equally as responsible as the borrowers, except that the borrowers who took too too much only did it the once (ie to themselves,not one debt), whereas the banks did it over and over again, wholesale.

    Disagree with the proportions if you like but there is no getting away from the fact that no one group is totally responsible here.

    JoeEasedale

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  • roddyl
    Love rating 0
    roddyl said

    Oh dear AleisterCrowley, your Halo must be weighing you down - many young people have never known anything but the good times, they have never had to go without and struggle to get by, don't blame them because the banks were all like pigs in a trough. Lets face it banks/lenders are charging existing customers up to 21% or more for credit cards which started out at 8% or so, why? because they over lent and have to get their money back from those poor sops who will continue to pay because they realise they have an obligation to pay their debts. Unemployment is not the fault of the people on the street, you seem to feel if someone loses their job it is their own fault if they then have insufficient money. Such a shame they can't all me as pious and perfect as you.

    By the way, believe it or not there are some good brokers out there, oh yes, the good old broker, to blame for every financial woe! and yes many are. But don't tar them all with the same brush, some people do actually have integrity. Hmmm, shall now go and shred my credit card.

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  • sladey947
    Love rating 0
    sladey947 said

    By the way, its not a CREDIT CARD, that implies you are in credit! It's a DEBT CARD! Whenever we all mention paid for by CREDIT we really mean DEBT don't we?

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  • deloco121
    Love rating 0
    deloco121 said

    Get a grip bambip67

    It's not the lending thats the problem. It's WHO they lend to. If they lend to people or organizations who have little chance of repaying then then obviously there are going to be defaults.

    If they lend more than the value of a property i.e 125% mortgages, then there are going to be problems even before the property market starts to collapse.

    I also thought that one of the Banks functions was to look after OUR money.

    Doesn't look to have happened that way.

    If you want to go on about taking responsibility for their actions, then maybe the banks and lenders should look on their own doorsteps - those lucky enough to still have a doorstep.

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  • 2381nickp
    Love rating 0
    2381nickp said

    A bit of a shift in perspective - I seem to remember TMF banging on at great length not that long ago about the amount of money owed on credit cards.

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  • Chuckwallah
    Love rating 23
    Chuckwallah said

    I disagree with almost evrything you say. Who is this "US" that you talk about? I, obviously, belong to a completely different 'us' and I place a lot of the blame on the 'us' that you belong to. The frenzy of greed that has occurred over the past decade could not have happened without the enthusiastic support of a section of the general public, the section that I do not belong to but you obviously do. The section that you are desperately trying to absolve in this article.

    The house of cards was plainly visible, the difference between my 'us' and your 'us' was that your 'us' chose to ignore it.

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  • MrsBridges
    Love rating 0
    MrsBridges said

    Following on from the comment by Supasap: "it is not even paper money it is zeroes and ones on computer discs" -

    Even paper money isn't real, it just says on it "I promise to pay the bearer, on demand, the sum of...".

    And who makes this promise - the good ol' Bank of England. So on this basis and in the current climate money doesn't exist.

    Having come to this realisation I fully expect the universe to disappear, roughly around 10:42 this morning, taking my pension, savings, ISAs, and mattress with it!

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  • DerKrobsen
    Love rating 0
    DerKrobsen said

    I think the point is missed.

    House price inflation is never contained. In fact it's celebrated! You can't lose money in bricks and mortar, can you? It's the new gold standard. Except it's not.

    The slump returns every 18 years and somehow no-one foresees it.

    Mrs Thatcher's idea of replacing industry with financial services, added to the Special Relationship with the USA, all keenly adopted by New Labour, leaves us very vulnerable.

    Add to that the joint income multiple for mortgages (another Thatcher-era whizz) that drove up house prices and committed both parties to full-time employment.

    It is the American banks who were driving the sub prime market here, profit hungry bankers, and who have been the first to withdraw.

    Blame? Too much reliance on house prices. Full stop.

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  • Almidge
    Love rating 0
    Almidge said

    Using the Noddy Holder approach - It is generally agreed that irresponsible lending by the Yank Banks has some bearing on our situation. So if the I.M.F. give loans to almost bancrupt countries - most of the world - who then have to borrow more to pay off their national debt, what happens when the (apparently imaginary) money runs out? Who will bail out the I.M.F.?

    I'm off to the Restaurant At The End Of The Universe to find a cow who wants to be my dinner! (It can be found in the Hitch-hikers Guide to the Galaxy, for younger Fools who missed the old T.V. series, recently shown on Sky)

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  • jrharmer
    Love rating 0
    jrharmer said

    Do not blame borrowers. They enjoyed life while they could. For a short time people had the opportunity to live well.

    Why worry about tomorrow. Life is a journey.. Enjoy it while you can. Eventually, for all of us, there is no tomorrow.

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  • potblack
    Love rating 0
    potblack said

    Great discussion. Where does it get us? All hindsite. We need something differrent to help those coming next.

    2000 years ago someone wrote 'first plough your field, then build your house'. Remember the South Sea bubble? There is nothing new. The trouble is we have lost the ability to learn from history and the wisdom of ages. Please would someone put up an arguement that diagrees with that? If not please make sure your children have the opportunity to learn.

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  • mankeyone
    Love rating 0
    mankeyone said

    Agree with AleisterCrowley. If you take out a loan, then you're the one responsible for satisfying yourself that its right for you, you're the one who reads the small print, you're the one who signs on the dotted line.

    What's the problem with being held responsible for your own actions. We're all free-willed people and can either decide to borrow from a particular source or NOT.

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  • Willjohnson7
    Love rating 0
    Willjohnson7 said

    There seems to be a fundamental oversight in all I have read so far about who is to blame. We are all individual human beings with massively varying abilities to read, understand, rationalise, be interested, bury our heads in the sand..etc, etc.

    There are inteligent, highly qualified people who don't seem to possess any common sense at all - and there are those who don't have enough intelligence to realise how stupid they are.

    You have to take lessons and pass a test to drive a car. It appears that you have (had) to be able to draw a cross on a piece of paper to secure a 200k mortgage - and probably interest-only at that!

    So, out here in the real world, there a fools and Fools. Sadly, it appears we had fools lending to fools.

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  • chemicaldiver
    Love rating 0
    chemicaldiver said

    Let me go back to the first financial collapse I lived through (let us ignore the 70's, as that was just the post war death throes of big industries, outdone by cheaper foreign competitors).

    In the early 80's I paid £7000 for our first terrace, and Bungle Bank would only give us 2.5 times of one of our earnings - obviously the highest. Fair enough, it seemed all other building societies and banks were broadly similar. Plus, you had to have been banking or saving for a year or two with that bank or society - hence our "choice" of the bank.

    I had a credit card and let me tell you they were not common or easy to come by, many friends did not have them.

    A few years later, and some building societies were rumoured to be offering 3.5 time the salary, including the contributions of both partners (OH and yes you probably had to be married) - house prices doubled within a year.

    At the same time a friend who worked for Bungle Bank was telling us about the new way of working - they had front desks (remember when you had to go into a dull back room to discuss borrowing?), and were actively selling to everyone - loans, mortgages - and the rule was TO SELL. Being a cautious sort, I asked "surely you are checking they can afford the mortgage plus extra loans"

    "Oh no," came the reply "I just get into trouble if I don't meet my targets"

    Not long after that we had the housing crash and stockmarket crash, which was so memorable for mortgage payers and savers - did we hit 15% interest rates?

    My dad as a saver was thrilled, I was less so as my mortgage payments doubled overnight. Let us remember it took quite a while (two tears for interest rates to slip down?)to crawl out of that hole - and it did irreparable damage to a lot of industries.

    Here we are again, and at least this seasons solution is to keep interest rates low, for which borrowers at least can be thankfull - my dad is not happy at all, oh no.

    I notice Bungle Bank managed to lend irresponsibly again, and I expect them to do it again for the next boom.

    What worries me, is our industries are again suffering, and that means our childrens future is becoming more difficult.

    If you want to feel better, and what true Brit doesn't want to look at other nations and feel superior - unemployment in Spain it galloping above 20% in the south (not building new houses - the main industry), and house prices are predicted down 40% - I suspect because us northern europeans cannot afford to buy them, or are just being cautious and not buying.

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  • Jazzyalec
    Love rating 0
    Jazzyalec said

    Perhaps we should bring back imprisonment for unpaid debt. This would solve a lot of our economic problems and the law could allow for some exceptions; eg mortgage lending where the borrower loses his or her job.

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  • comptroller99
    Love rating 0
    comptroller99 said

    It is difficult in a short article to explain the root cause of the biggest financial catastrophe for at least eighty years, possibly ever, Harvey has in my opinion made a very good, if slightly biased, stab at it. Even more difficult in a short post.

    When the history of this period is written it is likely that blame will be aportioned amongst everyone (as Harvey says in the article.) But my point is that none of these things were not predictable and have happenned in the past, but as the famous quote goes "if we forget history we are condemned to repeat it" and that, collectively, is what we all did.

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  • deloco121
    Love rating 0
    deloco121 said

    Chuchwallah

    The frenzy of greed you mention could certainly not have happened without enthusiastic support from the public.

    But.....

    It definitely could not have happened without the enthusiastic support of the banks/card issuers/building societies.

    The article is not trying to absolve 'us' it's just putting the point over that 'we' are not totally to blame for this mess.

    And Derkrobsen is spot on. House prices play a big part and the market always crashes eventually.

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  • chris280
    Love rating 0
    chris280 said

    This is a good article, however, you can't just blame the banks and those n the public that over borrowed and indeed those that were careful but now find themselves in dificulty because they are one of many that have lost their jobs.

    The media has to take a good deal of blame for whipping everyone up into a frenzy about the ever increasing house proces, you still have endless property programs which bear no resemblance to reality, news bulletins, focused on house prices increasing.

    Now what do we have all the media and news bulletins focusing on the negative elements it's all doom and gloom..

    I just wonder what peoples spirits would be like if we didn't watch the news or read newspapers... I think teh majority would feel a lot happier and maybe willing to spend a little of what they earn.

    As one of the posters said earlier common sense guidence is all most people need, not the marketing spin that borders on lying to convince the public to buy investments that are just not worthy of their hard earned cash.

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  • pdcovers
    Love rating 1
    pdcovers said

    "It takes two to tango".

    It also takes two (both a borrower and a lender) to do a deal over a loan, the former to consume (buy) more, the latter to make more profit (for you as shareholder).

    It goes round and round and round.

    More (and better?) regulation only annoys both parties who cannot do the deals they want for their own purposes.

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  • blondman100
    Love rating 0
    blondman100 said

    Well i am now preparing for the forthcoming depression. Roast potatoes and singing playing guitar in parks. We need a spiritual solution. The depression is going on my gratitude list today. It will be the best lesson our whole society will ever learn

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  • superangel
    Love rating 0
    superangel said

    This article is rubbish. Many many people bought property they knew they could not afford because they knew they could sell it at a higher price in the immediate future, not because they could afford it or they were a desparate FTB. No-one forced credit cards or loans onto consumers; if they preferred to take them, that was there fault. Anyone who believed Brown over anything never mind Boom&Bust, is gullible in the extreme - look at the evidence. Do not seriously say the consumers had no part in it. Have you considered that the banks had to play this game - otherwise they did not report profits and would have been impossible to survive.

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  • chris280
    Love rating 0
    chris280 said

    superangel you seem to be saying the Banks had no choice and were forced to lend to people!! So who is to blame? It is not just the consumer.

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  • chiselhead
    Love rating 0
    chiselhead said

    I`ve read all the above comments and have to agree with all, we`re in a mess.

    One word I havent seen written or heard said..

    GREED.. surely this very human trait must take centre stage. Take it out of the equation and none of whats happened would have.

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  • jheenan1
    Love rating 0
    jheenan1 said

    If you left a school full of children alone for any amount of time, the school would be trashed, possibly even burnt down. For the children to thrive they need a framework that encourages them to thrive yet sets down certain guildelines.

    Business are the same. All they want to do is make money by any means necessary- To maximise profit. They need regulation that allows them to thrive but stops them from doing harm for the greater good of the people.

    This is why it is futile to blame the consumer, the bank or even the FSA. The blams comes down directly to Gordon Brown alone. After he has finished his tenure as PM he should stand trial for gross negligance against our once great Britain

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  • teafoo
    Love rating 47
    teafoo said

    Yes, not far off Joe Easedale

    how about:

    40% Government - too little regulation or maybe too much, fostering the idea that if it's regulated it must be ok - too much encouraging 'the good times' with lies about how good it all is and no thought for the morrow.

    30% Borrower - No one forced them to borrow, and there is the matter of personal responsibility. But responsible borrowers are paying the price as well as the irresponsible

    30% Lenders - for further encouraging borrowing so that they could make big profits (albeit short-term)

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  • BAMBI25
    Love rating 0
    BAMBI25 said

    I also agree with AleisterCrowley, I have been sensible with my money, saved up to buy modest cars, saved 10% deposit to buy a house, took time (and still am) decorating etc.

    After all this I feel like I needn't have bothered, after the tax I have worked hard to pay is given to people who have never worked, and have no intention of working, has been given to the banks to bail them out for lending too much money to people who cannot pay it back, and now to the motor industry.

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  • saltydiver
    Love rating 0
    saltydiver said

    "We" "the public" are not to blame because we are not one homogenous mass who have all acted in the same way. Some are nett savers some are responsible borrowers some are defaulters through misfortune but some are defaulters who have enjoyed value and not paid for it and left others with the bill. This last group and those who facilitated there unpaid for pleasures might be said to be to blame.

    I don't like being told that I as part of the public am to blame because as a saver who has always gone without if I couldn't pay and now I am paying again because what I have saved means that I will be effectively paying for others. So in that much I agree with the article.

    I also would not want to see those who borrowed responsibly, house buyers fully expecting to pay off their mortgages over the time they are earning and being paid for their contribution to society and accepting the cost of having money / value in advance of earning it the same goes for businesses borrowing to invest in productive projects with expected future income to pay for the borrowing. This is what makes the world go round.

    BUT some borrowers and their accompices are to blame

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  • pm67
    Love rating 1
    pm67 said

    Stop Finding Excuses For Borrowers For This Crisis

    Live within your means, you don't have to take loans you cannot afford.

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  • raba9
    Love rating 16
    raba9 said

    OK so banks and building societies haved moved drastically away from being a service organisation (I started my career in one) to being a shop and sales targets are now king. But whether or not the employee hits his/her target is irrelevant. He or she who signs the form is responsible for repaying the debt - end of. If you can't see your way to paying a debt back (worst case scenario, sell the house) then don't take out the debt. As outdated a concept as it is, people have to accept responsibility for their own actions and also allow for the fact that Murphy's Law is never far away. Despite the "best efforts" of this mob in Westminster, my endowment mortgage is now repaid and my credit cards get paid in full every month. And I'm not happy about the effect of current interest rates on my savings.

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  • lifesasod
    Love rating 0
    lifesasod said

    "The public’s biggest sin in the boom years was to forsake saving for tomorrow, particularly in pensions, in favour of spending today."

    And with the debacle of Equitable, who trusts pension funds anymore? Not me. I went from putting the maximum savings (into Equitable), to contributing nothing. Since 2000, I've put my savings into cash accounts (alas, Kaupthing Isle of Man, which the govt drove into administration). I wish I'd blown the whole lot. One can't trust any institution nowadays.

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  • flatmonkey
    Love rating 0
    flatmonkey said

    I totally agree with most of the posters here - it's the fault of the banks, building societies and mortgage lenders.

    They were the ones willing to lend silly amounts of money to people.

    We bought a reposession last year. The mortage company who reposessed it is now trying to sue the surveyer who valued the property in 2006.

    Good one - try and blame someone else for you lending money to a buyer who wasn't going to be able to afford to pay it. It's not the surveyor's fault for valuing the property in line with market prices at the time!

    I hope they lose and have to pay everyone else's costs.

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  • SiGl26
    Love rating 26
    SiGl26 said

    The comments so far miss an excellent point in Harvey's article, falling once again into the continuous (and pointless) 'pie-shop (or McDonalds, if you prefer)/obesity' paradigm.

    Banks are in business to lend, people choose to borrow. Banks have a duty of care to their stakeholders to lend responsibly with a reasonable expectation of being repaid, end of story.

    Harvey's little reported point is that the financial industry's long-time 'trusted advisors', the ratings agencies, were at best delinquent and at worst complicit in the over-rating of worthless securities.

    I heard that B&B bought three packages of Mortgage Backed Securities in fairly quick succession, all rated AAA by the agencies, which were respectively 20%, 50% and 95% US sub-prime debt. The problem is everyone trusted the rating agencies [which were being paid (handsomely) by the vendors], and no-one knew enough to understand what they were actually buying.

    A good analogy is the great HIP fiasco; it failed because no-one in their right mind would trust a property survey commissioned and paid for by the vendor...

    We used to complain that our bankers were all classically educated public-schoolboys; maybe at least those guys knew what 'Caveat emptor' [may the buyer beware] meant!!

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  • kittzy
    Love rating 32
    kittzy said

    Top Article, hit the nail firmly on the head. Just one point, People didn't forget to save for tomorrow, on the contrary, Sick of knowing or hearing about pensions vannishing into thin air, a lot of people opted to take charge of their own pension with buy to let.

    Furthermore, i have a house which is let, my 2 year fixed is over, my mortgage payments are better covered than they were, my tennants are long term happy. So how has the buy to let collapsed? Negative equity, not yet, and this would only bother me when? if i wanted to sell, why would i?

    Maybe i'm dumb and i missed something.

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  • BrokenNotBroke
    Love rating 0
    BrokenNotBroke said

    I thought the whole point of the article was:

    "It wasn’t you and me who sold dodgy mortgages to cash-strapped US citizens, then chopped them up and flogged them off as mortgage-backed securities to gullible institutions across the planet.

    Neither did we honour this junk with a AAA grading (that was the ratings agencies). We’d never even heard of credit default swaps, until they popped up to plague our lives."

    The financial institutions are to blame for the current mess, yet they continue to try and blame Joe & Josephine Public for borrowing i.e. using their services.

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  • SiGl26
    Love rating 26
    SiGl26 said

    Oh - and didn't I hear that many of the Bear Stearns & Lehman Brothers' senoir executives were ex-Enron?

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  • ss770640
    Love rating 1
    ss770640 said

    banks are 100% to blame! no credit checks, encouraged and practically given/forced to have a £5000 visa card even though you have no job!!?!?!? massive overlending to capitise on interest charges. lending to cheaper "re-arrange your debt" companies which compounded the problem. Relying too heavily on property capital growth to fund their lavish customer grabbing marketing campaigns. comletely their fault and they are being made to pay. quite rightly. i am going to change to a bank that relies on savings and not aggressive customer gaining/free money for all techniques. RBS shares down to 50 pence! that says it all.

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  • ss770640
    Love rating 1
    ss770640 said

    if a bank cant look after its own money, what hope is there of looking after its customers?

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  • LittleAcorns
    Love rating 0
    LittleAcorns said

    Good article--from a slightly unusual viewpoint.

    The variety of responses only show how different we are individually. Generalisations are comfortable. I wonder how much difference it would have made if our trusted pensions regime had not been broken by stealth taxation for short-term tax revenue gain? In no time at all the faith in long term saving was replaced by investments in property--and we know where that led.

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  • Tanar
    Love rating 0
    Tanar said

    Just a point on the yummy-mummy with the Chelsea tractor and the Chav with the gold chains.

    Which one bought a fuel guzzling depreciating asset?

    Which one made sound investment?

    We have a saying up here, 'all fur coat and nae nickers!'.

    I work at just above min wage, drive a P reg car and yet still manage to OWN my own home, mortgage free, smoke 30 a day, holiday in South Africa and send my daughter to private school (for her education, not no impress the neighbours). Bought a flat in 78 when the int rate was at 15% but made damn sure I had no other debt and could pay back.

    Too many people buy the latest must have's without thinking of the consequences and the lenders and Govt encourage this.

    YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE for your own life and if you can't see past a morally corrupt system, don't bleat about the outcome.

    Everything in life has a price, either pay it or don't buy it!

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  • Hudges
    Love rating 5
    Hudges said

    This is an excellent article. However, the crisis we are in is the culmination of both the buying of junk US 'assets', and the housing boom here.

    What I am not sure of is whether there is a link between the two? Can anyone who knows comment please?

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  • lazban
    Love rating 5
    lazban said

    Has anyone considered that the real problem might be greedy banks who sought to take control of mortgages, pensions and insurance rather than stick to banking. Once this started happening, the rules regarding no more than three times the borrowers salary went out the window (and self certification of salary only made it worse. Add to that the availabilty of an interest only mortgage with no method of paying off the capital.

    Consequently money was lent to borrowers who could not afford it.

    I always worked on the principle that I would not buy the veggies from Norwich Union so why would I buy insurance from Tesco or have a savings account with Sainsbury.

    Lazban

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  • nicthefool
    Love rating 0
    nicthefool said

    AleisterCrowley has it mainly right. People cannot blame the banks solely, or indeed anyone else solely. Anyone who chose to live beyond their means must share the blame, but then I guess they were just following the example set by yet another profligate labour government.

    As to referring to your cars and houses as assets? Think about it: if you can't work, will they feed you? or will they eat you? We are not all business accountants thinking solely in terms of what such and such is worth if we sell it. An asset is something that will feed you if you lose your job, a liability is something that will eat you.

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  • drippub
    Love rating 0
    drippub said

    I suppose we should count ourselves as fortunate. Mortgage paid off, no outstanding debts, no credit card debts, kids grown up and off our hands, as much as they are ever off your hands. Both my wife and I worked all our life and tried to act as we had been taught by our "elders and betters". Even went as far as to save, modestly, for our retirement in a couple of pension funds; which have proven to be practically worthless. So revert to plan "B", you should think yourself lucky, after all you have managed to acrue some savings throuout your collective lives, you can supplement your pension with that!! Oh dear that doesn't seem to be of any great value either. Why don't we feel very fortunate?

    stlen.

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  • r04drunner1
    Love rating 0
    r04drunner1 said

    Excellent point re the ratings agencies. They lied and masked the truth / horror of sub-prime mortgages. This allowed toxic loans to be spread across the globe and not just restricted to the USA (which would have been bad enough).

    But that was step 3 in the ladder.

    Step 1: The sub-prime crisis was brought on by risky lending in the USA for political reasons. Read this and weep...

    http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/dominic-lawson/dominic-lawson-democrat-fingerprints-are-all-over-the-financial-crisis-949653.html

    As I say, forcing the US mortgage lenders to create this dodgy debt was step 1 in the financial ladder to this crisis.

    Step 2 was the decision by the lenders to package these sub-prime mortgages up with other ones and trade them as derivatives (collateral debt obligations, or CDOs). They did this to manage their own risk (i.e. transfer the risk to others). US regulations forbidding this sort of behaviour were repealed (sorry, I don't have the source of this to hand). That in itself was not necessarily a bad thing, as long as the organisations buying the CDOs had clear visibility of the risk attached to these "investments" - that they were based on loans to people who were highly likely to default. Which is where step 3 of the ladder came in - the ratings agencies at best got it badly wrong and, at worst, were criminally irresponsible.

    Fundamentally, financial "experts" lost visibility of the balance between risk and return. They saw the opportunity to make high returns and ignored or downplayed the risks. Now the chickens have come home to roost and we are all paying for it.

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  • Norfolkgold
    Love rating 0
    Norfolkgold said

    Some of you may have seen a program on TV just before Christmas which featured a single mother with three sons from Liverpool who was complaining over the cost of energy. She did not know where she was going to get the money to pay her next bill. As the camera went round the house you saw a 5oin plasma TV on the wall. In each of the son's bedrooms the was was a widescreen TV and a computer with 17in monitors. All on credit that she could not afford. I rest my case.

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  • DP130132
    Love rating 20
    DP130132 said

    Banks have no money to lend, and need a "bail-out". Where do they get the money to pay their obscene wages and

    "BONUS"????

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  • stuartpetergraha
    Love rating 0
    stuartpetergraha said

    What is living within your means? Let's say you earn 24,000 p.a that gives you 2,000/ month, you have a take home pay of 1,200/ month after bills related to work and taxes. You have had this job for five years and saved up a 25,000 deposit while renting, so saved very hard.

    You buy a flat as the mortgage and the rent are about the same and letting the second room pays the council tax. You turn up to work one day and the place is locked up and a note says sorry closed up bankrupt.

    You can't pay the mortgage, living outside your means?

    Many people have debt, it is the only way you can buy a house, after rent and bills there isn't enough to buy a house cash from savings. Most of the repossessions are due to job loses or reduced work.

    when I was working years ago, good pay and a mortgage I could pay and still have enough left, every bonus went straight off the mortgage. I went into work one thursday, the manager and a two security guards greeted me. I had them watch me put my stuff in a cardboard, signed by redundancy slip and was escorted off the premise like a theif. Four weeks pay for severence and two weeks holiday pay due me. I lost the place I was buying and my first wife and I split up soon after. I had zero credit card debt, my nurse ex-wife didn't earn enough to pay the mortgage alone and once the saving were used up (6 months) we were forced out and the place auctioned off. I think we had about 4,000 each, we put down 25,000.

    The problem is employment, as well.

    As a solution or part of it, the banks should be limited in what they can lend on mortgage and credit card. A maximum of 3 or 4 times the main wage and once times the second, probably also the requirement to have a 10% deposit minimum. Also for all credit cards to be linked and the maximum total lending to be say your after tax annual income. House price rose because we had access to excessive amounts of credit, then the next group of buyers has to borrow even more and so, until we reach figures like 6 times wages to get a place.

    There is no good saying don't buy them as the rents are sky high as the landlords loans are so high. Often rents are not that much more than mortgage or where not a few years ago. Excess credit pushed up demand and with limited supply prices are bid up (1st year microeconomics).

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  • miasmatic
    Love rating 0
    miasmatic said

    Well I'm solidly with Aleister Crowley and his supporters on this subject.

    For years my (late)wife and I did without before reaping the rewards of our careful plans.

    Not all borrowers are to blame,because a good number of them are still on this planet,and are responsible.

    However the ones who were not on this planet joined their greedy suppliers of debt and "targets"

    either to "keep up with the Joneses",or feared that if they did not climb on the costly housing ladder,they'd be left stranded.Well there was no choice but to be left stranded for this category because they didn't plan on ANYTHING.

    It's good to read the messages of the thoughtful people who borrowed,and who planned and paid.

    I definitely don't like the phrase "We are to blame",because whoever coined this should stay on their spaceship with the rest of their followers and find a planet that suits them.

    Many of us have been sensible,and did not go overboard and lived within our means.

    Unfortunately we have now been thrown overboard along with our savings and hard graft by the reckless and their greedy suppliers of debt.

    I am glad to see that there ARE some of us solidly planted on Terra Firma.

    To be fair,some people have suffered one way or another and their debt predicament is not because of mismanagement of their resources.

    As I say,the reckless and feckless AND the banks have brought all of us crashing down one way or other.

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  • StuCherry
    Love rating 0
    StuCherry said

    The credit crunch has been caused by banks & estate agents. Banks have been willing to loan upto 6x salary for mortgages. This allowed house prices to rise too fast. Grossly over valued by estate agents that take a percentage cut of the house price. If estate agents worked on a fixed price structure then they wouldn't keep pushing up house prices to get a bigger cut. Now everyone is struggling with large mortgages & have no spare cash to spend on other things. Interest rate cuts hav done nothing for me. Tied into fixed mortgage till June09. My savings earn virtually nothing now. Why haven't credit card rates dropped or basic bank loans?

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  • Shiney999
    Love rating 0
    Shiney999 said

    A well written article - thank you!

    Self certified & 125% mortgages could only end in tears and we are now reaping the result of those indulgences thanks to the lenders becoming more and more greedy with their huge bonuses on top of inflated salaries.

    As regular savers and unfortunate depositors with Kaupthing Isle of Man we have been hit harder than most. We are not anything like millionaires and never will be just working class savers who live permanently in the UK and paid tax on our interest earned (despite the lies and spin put out by our elected representatives that have the disgusting right to call themselves our Government). There is still no help from them to get the matter resolved despite repeated contact via our Labour MP.

    Shame on them all and roll on the next General Election Brown & Darling et al OUT....!!

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  • foolowme
    Love rating 0
    foolowme said

    Did you forget the CFO's of these banks who made millions in bonuses every year!

    Why should savers pay for the irresponsibility of Banks and their CEO/CFOs?

    Just a bonus cut for all these CEO/CFO's would save a lot money to save the banking industry and lifet the economy. The blame game is ON, but the people responsible for this credit crunch are busy driving their ferrari and still living in huge mansions.

    Borrowing more than what you can pay for is definitely a wrong thing and Savers and tax-payers paying for somebody else's borrowing is much worst too!!!

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  • slickfingers
    Love rating 0
    slickfingers said

    i wish i had the time to read all these comments but aleister crowley you are wrong wrong wrong. i have also lived within my means till my divorce forced me to live a different way. however the people can only borrow if the banks lend. once upon a time you would be scrutinised very stringently before you could borrow a fiver. but the pressure for more business comes down from on high they want bigger profits and bonuses and look to how it can be achieved and that is to lend irresponsibly. the media is also partly to blame for trying to convince the dustman or the dinner lady he or she should live like alan sugar/ david beckham or victoria spice/ derbra meadan (dragons den) the toffs at the top are not different to the sherrif of nottingham. they are happy to bleed us dry and continue with their lives of excess. but i am a secondary school technician and i saw this comming four years ago which was why i gave up part time estate agency. so are the toffs (mammary glands) at the top thick or am i smart?

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  • sarab33
    Love rating 0
    sarab33 said

    Let's have a look at where the expertise is supposed to lie:

    Gordon Brown - Master of the Universe - no more boom and bust. Brilliant Chancellor; knows all about money.

    FSA - Brought in to sort out the shortfalls of the (forgettable) department that was its predecessor. Experts at money and financial systems.

    Banks - Deal with money and securities all day, every day. Top people are so brilliant at it, they get HUGE salaries and bonuses.

    Media - some with expertise, but would generally rather go for a killer headline and a shock-horror story.

    Joe Public - little or no financial education (certainly not in school). Relies on common sense and what he/she reads and hears.

    Yes, borrowers have been less than prudent, but where the heck were the warning voices from the so-called experts? They were all on their knees praying for the soft landing that isn't going to come.

    My percentages:

    Gov't 50% - Gordon took the credit when things were ticking along.

    Banks 25% - they're sharks, so you can't blame them for behaving like sharks.

    FSA 15% - Less teeth than a hen - and rather less bite. But they still banked their salaries!

    Public 10% - But not equally shared among the prudent and the feckless.

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  • Accountantsmum
    Love rating 0
    Accountantsmum said

    What I find missing from both the article and many of the comments is balance. I think it's a good article, and like much good journalism takes a clear line. The point that Aleister and his supporters seem to overlook is that the irresponsible borrowers - and yes, some were - are a very small fraction of the total number. I don't think I'm untypical: I bought my house in 2000 and at its peak it was worth three times what I paid for it. Now it's worth only two and a half times. Am I bovvered?!!

    But if you've been watching Evan Davies' excellent series of programmes about the City, you'll know that the immediate, and biggest, factor in the credit crunch was the way bankers traded financial instruments without properly assessing the risks. They hired the rating agencies to do it for them: but assessing risk is supposed to be part of the skill of banking. So my percentage in the allocation is 75% financial institutions - the lending banks, the merchant banks and the rating agencies - 20% the Government, for hopeless lack of regulation, and 5% the borrowers, because most of us HAVE been responsible and ARE coping in spite of everything.

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  • slickfingers
    Love rating 0
    slickfingers said

    oh i forgot to mention nick leeson screwed up, and did anyone think they should be keeping a closer eye on things. no and on top of that most peole if they make a huge error at work they are penalised or sacked not given a huge bonus anyway

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  • mer2k
    Love rating 0
    mer2k said

    Another good article Harvey, except I disagree on one point: there has been no boom, but we are in an economic bust. Yes there has been a housing bubble, but no economic boom.

    Who is to blame, definitely not those who borrowed and can repay. Those who borrowed and cannot repay are partly to blame, but also the banks who lent to them.

    Banks who lent 125% mortgages are to blame for accepting risk as these obviously become likely to default if house prices stop rising.

    Banks who invested in repackaged risky debt with rewards are to blame for not understanding the risk.

    The credit raters are to blame for misrepresenting the risk of these products.

    The FSA and Government are to blame for letting the banks get away with these risky practices when the banking system is essential to the economy. They need to either force banks not to take too much risk to avoid future bailouts, or allow the creation of another bank-like system that takes lower risks if the banks want to keep gambling. However in order for banks to keep lending now, this pain for banks needs to be anounced now but phased in in the future.

    A number of people have been criminally incompetent, and yet they still get paid.

    Finally a prediction: Interest rates won't go much lower as it will be counter productive as Savers will take their money out resulting in banks having less money to lend. Borrowers are paying off their debts rather than spending as we know there are hard times ahead because of this incompetent spendaholic government. This should result in more money to lend to businesses, so borrowers feel good about yourselves, you are doing your bit to save the economy.

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  • slickfingers
    Love rating 0
    slickfingers said

    good analysis sarab 33 but i think you were generous to the banks i would go with accounts mums split of responsibility.

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  • joannakd
    Love rating 9
    joannakd said

    It's called GREED !!!!

    A deadly sin, I presume !

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  • DrWealth
    Love rating 0
    DrWealth said

    What a great discussion! I agree with pretty much all of the points made - as one poster said, it is all now a confusing mess.

    But by the time we all (savers vs borrowers) end up bickering about how easy, prudent, etc it was to borrow so much, we have lost the real reasons for how we got here. So thank you Harvey for speaking MY mind!

    Private landlords and property investors already existed, knew what they were doing and had been doing it for years. Gordon Brown's pensions tax raid saw some (not me) running for property instead, for easy growth - and it was easy and fast. Caught me on the hop, and I decided 5 years ago to save hard and wait for an 80% property correction (hopefully that'll be complete in the next 18-24 months) - then I'm a buyer.

    A poster said everyone is different, and it is the people who knew they would never repay their debt that annoy me - because I'll end up paying for their African safari etc.

    A solution: hands off, let property crash - I guess the national average needs to drop to about £50-60K, then politicise it by including house prices in inflation to cap annual growth to 4-5%.

    This should be enough to kill overdemand for borrowing.

    The haven for the gamblers and investors then will be stockmarkets where average growth is 7% over the long term - but at least that means investing in companies, jobs and UK plc - if these three collapse, then we all suffer.

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  • gordonpanderson
    Love rating 0
    gordonpanderson said

    You are right Alisteir! If we all had your intelligence and moral and financial integrity no one would be in this mess. Unfortunately we don't! We trust banks and the government to give us accurate information and trust they will exercise good judgement in their affairs, after all money is their business and if they say I can save money by doing this or that and that a pension is a good way to invest for my future and property is financial security, then I am likely to believe them. The aggressive or seductive advertising campaigns presumably only work on the thick an stupid? Well maybe your right only there are far more thick an stupid people in this country than we are aware of and you unfortunate intelligent ones who read the small print, take responsibility for your actions and are not susceptible to advertising must carry the cost. Only problem is without the stupid masses the banks and other large consumer industries wouldn't have made the billions that they then so irresponsibly lost.

    Perhaps if the banks were run by intelligent responsible people like yourself they would have realised how stupid their customers were and taken steps to protect themselves. Or perhaps (aided and abetted by the government) they knew that these same stupid people would then have to bale them out when the crash came. Serves them right, the fools!

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  • middleagespread
    Love rating 0
    middleagespread said

    I could have written the article myself, as i agree with what has been said, and i have been blogging these views for the last 6 months and more.

    Only last week i was asked at the bank if i would like to review my account, which i declined, as the last time i discussed my personal finances with them they were only interseted in offerring me more money on a new credit card when i had asked for help to slimline my finances because of the coming storm and a reduction in my personal income due to changes in my worklife.

    I am not a saver as all that comes in goes out generally as soon as it hits my account, which, by the way, is in almost permanent overdraft.

    So if this is the way the banks feel they are resolving personal debt, it beggars belief.

    I think most housewives would have more clue to running budgets than these idiots.

    One way the government might resolve this crisis is rather than spend gazillions bailing out another bank or financial institution which has shown either absolute contempt in their use of the resources handed to them- from us, the tax payer- or utter stupidity in it's handling of the bailout funds, maybe Mr Brown and Mr darling could wipe out all personal debt by using our money to clear all credit card debts and loans, and let us all start anew. I doubt very much if the common man would make such a screw up as the banks have done.

    So we could all start on a level playing field and put banks back in the position of being customer service supliers, putting their customers interests first instead of the sharks they have been supporting for so long now.And also lining their own pockets- lets not forget the shameful £300,000 bash that was put on by one finance house which had recieved tax paywers money to bail it out. I'm still waiting for heads to roll for that obscene display of contempt. But in their lilly livered way i'm sure the powers that be will hope that the incident will just fade away, like so many other howlers.

    It's about time that someone somewhere took the whole thing by the scruff of the neck and gave it a really good shaking.

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  • guykguard
    Love rating 0
    guykguard said

    This enjoyable article asks "who is really to blame for the credit crunch?" From the posts so far it seems that just about everyone is to blame for the events of the post 18 months or so. If so many people say this, it can hardly not be true. But I wonder if they are a sound answer to a very good question.

    As I understand the question, Harvey Jones is enquiring as to why credit is hard to come by, now.

    One answer to this question is that lenders cannot now be sure that the future value of any asset discounted to the present day is worth what is claimed for it, whether by borrowers or lenders. At present financial institutions are not even sure what assets actually back their loan books. Still less do they have any sound idea of the realisable value of these assets. Banks are blindfolded businesses.

    Anyone reading this article should reach down a copy of Mackay's "Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds". It's all in there: only the dates are different!

    In the UK, the property market from 1975 to 2007 has behaved, in all significant and material respects, like the South Sea bubble and Tulipomania. It has been a classic case of a popular delusion that one's private home was a profit-making enterprise, fuelled by the madness of millions of people who who not only believed that the asset was worth the price actually paid for it but also that the risk of default on the liability attached to it was worth running. In both cases, the whole crowd -- borrowers and lenders -- has got no less than what it paid for!

    Until asset prices revert to the long-term mean of their true value, and until the popular delusions surrounding credit have subsided, credit to acquire any asset will continue to be hard to come by.

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  • ggpessimist
    Love rating 0
    ggpessimist said

    The media don't seem to have got an abusive mention. They have hyped up property in particular but also the stock market, alternative(!) investments and all the other excesses of the last 10 years without any sense of social resposibility only desperate to attract more advertisers.

    Most people are unwise enough to rely on the media for their information(hard to avoid) and have been persuaded that all you need to do to make money from property is a nice coat of paint or it will just go up anyway. Gainsayers ha ve been branded as boring. Now the market is going the other way, the downside is grotesquely exaggerated.Job losdses though tragic at an individiual level are only about 2% of the working population, mortgage repayments are at record lows & a majority of the middle classes are better off than for some time: its the perception that times are bad not the reality that is changing behaviour.

    So wake up smell the coffee & get on with your life but try and make your own decisions not based on media headlines.

    TJHis recession may just

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  • slickfingers
    Love rating 0
    slickfingers said

    we know they are all greedy and yes it is sinfull but if the city and the government cared about that, they would all go to church on sunday wouldn't they?

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  • DrWealth
    Love rating 0
    DrWealth said

    What a great discussion! I agree with pretty much all of the points made - as one poster said, it is all now a confusing mess.

    But by the time we all (savers vs borrowers) end up bickering about how easy, prudent, etc it was to borrow so much, we have lost the real reasons for how we got here. So thank you Harvey for speaking MY mind!

    Private landlords and property investors already existed, knew what they were doing and had been doing it for years. Gordon Brown's pensions tax raid saw some (not me) running for property instead, for easy growth - and it was easy and fast. Caught me on the hop, and I decided 5 years ago to save hard and wait for an 80% property correction (hopefully that'll be complete in the next 18-24 months) - then I'm a buyer.

    A poster said everyone is different, and it is the people who knew they would never repay their debt that annoy me - because I'll end up paying for their African safari etc.

    A solution: hands off, let property crash - I guess the national average needs to drop to about £50-60K, then politicise it by including house prices in inflation to cap annual growth to 4-5%.

    This should be enough to kill overdemand for borrowing.

    The haven for the gamblers and investors then will be stockmarkets where average growth is 7% over the long term - but at least that means investing in companies, jobs and UK plc - if these three collapse, then we all suffer.

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  • Tanar
    Love rating 0
    Tanar said

    'We trust banks and the government to give us accurate information and trust they will exercise good judgement in their affairs,'

    Why?

    does anyone seriously put any trust in this or any other govt?

    I'm afraid the modern politician, local and national,is only in it for the power and the cash, apart from the fact they would be almost unemployable in the real world.

    Here today, gone tomorrow, no moral responsibility, spin and bull.

    And don't think getting rid of Gordon/Darling is going to solve anything.

    As for bankers....

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  • money156
    Love rating 0
    money156 said

    Harvey seems to have partially indentified the culprits, yet missed the underlying significance.

    The US has been running a "winner-takes-all" economy since the mid-seventies. The "workers" have seen their real earning reducing for the past thirty years, as the "fat cats" have been rewarded for their increasing size. To enable the "workers" to maintain the illusion of prosperity they were offered a way to augment their disposible income by taking out loans using their inflated property values as "security". Many US working families were already using all the available hours to keep their heads above water and keep up with the Jones's, doing work which in many cases was necessary and also of real benefit to the community. e.g. nursing, necessary teaching and other benevolent production and services.

    Simultaneously other "workers" were pursuing the American dream, with the aim of moving themselves into the fat cat league e.g. "dodgy" financial services, military-associated scams etc. usually to the detriment of others,

    This arrangement was encouraged by those with wealth and political power for it strengthened their positions, and kept the potentially restless workers from feeling the discomforts of exploitation.

    Anyone with a glimpse of insight could see that this rampant capitalism was an unjust, wasteful, and doomed arrangement,that would eventually come tumbling down, yet they played the game to its conclusion, as it was the only game on offer for most people.

    Little Britain, in awe of US "wealth" and power, puppied along more closely than other countries, and we now see the results.

    The present situation is a golden opportunity to learn from the recent economic and socio-political history, let's hope that we can take it.

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  • DrWealth
    Love rating 0
    DrWealth said

    Hudges - US junk got bundled with some decent assets and the whole basket then got mysteriously rated AAA. These instruments then got flung far and wide across the world's banks.

    Meanwhile the UK had its own property boom driven by overdemand for property by erstwhile pension-investors et al. At this point, no link between the two.

    When US sub-prime borrowers started defaulting in droves, and big US banks ran short of cash or went bust, that hit 'confidence' in the world's banks as nobody knew who had the toxic assets, or how exposed they were. They stopped lending either to punters for mortgages or to other banks. Basically lending came to a halt and that burst the property bubble.

    So they are linked, but 'confidence' - or the lack of it - was the real killer.

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  • chrispmorris
    Love rating 0
    chrispmorris said

    I agree with Aleister Crowley. People need to take responsibility for their own actions. Nobody can, in this context, make you spend more than you can afford. You choose, and you need to take responsibility when things go wrong. if you lack foresight, or at least a brain enough to consider you financial future, then you deserve to be pulverised without being saved or having recourse to public funds.

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  • nopolitician
    Love rating 0
    nopolitician said

    I would equate this situation with the sinking of the Titanic.

    You cannot blame the passengers for not preparing better. Your ticket, (vote), is for safe passage.

    Unfortunately these days, honour does not abound.

    The women and children, (poor and elderly) do not get the lifeboats first.

    Will GB go down with the ship?

    Will the authority that allowed the ship to sail with too few lifeboats, take any responsibility?

    Will the owners who wanted a spectacular arrival in New York in quick time take any responsibility?

    Will the 'designers' accept that their design was flawed?

    Will the rescue ship's radio operators be listening?

    Will the inevitable enquiry be a 'whitewash'?

    Will history repeat itself? You can safely bet your life it will!

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  • slickfingers
    Love rating 0
    slickfingers said

    some one mentioned about the housing boom. yes what about surveyors who should have not allowed property to be going up by 1000s per week.

    lets not forget the corruption caused part of this!

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  • Tanar
    Love rating 0
    Tanar said

    love the Titanic analogy-

    Except perhaps

    'You cannot blame the passengers for not preparing better. Your ticket, (vote), is for safe passage.'

    By boarding ship, you assume that there is a chance, however small, of it sinking.

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  • AdAstra100
    Love rating 26
    AdAstra100 said

    Picking up on Harvey Jones' point that 'some of us' were not paying enough into our pensions and therefore have to accept some blame. That may well be true for many of the 20 to 30 somethings but why did it happen? Gordon Brown killed off the credibility and potential of the private pension so many then decided that property was the only way to go to save for their old age. Unfortunately the term negative equity is now being driven home to those poor unfortunates bamboozled by the banks into borrowing too much. My allocation of blame is therefore:

    Government 60%

    Banks 30%

    Joe Public 10% and these are mainly those who cannot control their credit card spending.

    PS I hear the mobile phone companies are packaging a whole load of services we Fools can do without to sustain their sales for 2009. Will the 20s-30s be able to resist or are they now growing up at last into a real world? Every recession cloud could have a silver lining!

    Regards

    AdAstra

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  • deloco121
    Love rating 0
    deloco121 said

    Going back to AlesteirCrowley's first post....

    "I've spent the last 15 years saving and living within my means. Now I'm indirectly paying for other people's irresponsibility and I'm not happy..."

    Just whose irresponsibility do you think you are indirectly paying for? You're not paying for my borrowing be it on cards, loans, whatever. I pay for my own thank you.

    If you think that this credit crisis is solely down to personal borrowing and debt by Joe Public then you need a reality check.

    You (and me, and 99% of the others) are paying for banks and lenders irresponsilities and the failure of FSA's and the Government to prevent it all spiralling out of control.

    We all have hindsight - it only comes out when it's too late. Hence the name.

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  • slickfingers
    Love rating 0
    slickfingers said

    dear crisp morris i hope you are not unfortunate enough to marry a gold digger. cause the divorce courts and what women can get away with is nothing short of criminal and all they have to be is a good liar and it can screw your whole life up and force you to live in a way that is against everything you believe in.

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  • gordonpanderson
    Love rating 0
    gordonpanderson said

    Oh such cynicism Tanar, next you'll be saying there were no weapons of mass destruction.

    Lets face it the days of politicians with principles are long gone. They employ the same techniques to get elected as the banks do to sell us credit.

    My own bank are advertising a 'January Sale - 25% off' I asked if I could buy a pound for 75p and they looked at me as though I was the mad one

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  • slickfingers
    Love rating 0
    slickfingers said

    by the way as far as i am concerned this all started way back when thatcher was voted in and everyone bought in to the capitalist idea which has led to a sink or swim , look after number 1 attitude. she! was the worst thing that happened to britain.

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  • slickfingers
    Love rating 0
    slickfingers said

    i agree gordon, it doesn't seem to matter how much they screw up they just carry on like gordon.b. looking for quick fixes to their problems.

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  • Noodzy
    Love rating 0
    Noodzy said

    Capitalism is about exploiting opportunities, if the PM says boom and bust is over, you think maybe property is a one way bet. You cannot blame poor people for over extending themselves with mortgages or taking Caribbean holidays after all who feels they deserve to be poor? Most of the UK was employed in 2007 and we all wanted a stake in our country, New Labour have peddled the Property Owning Democracy idea since 1997 (Stakeholder). What were we without a house of our own? At the mercy of a landlord, law stacked in their favour kicking us out after 12 months or raising the rent astronomically, it was cheaper to get a mortgage. People borrowed for the deposit and got interest only mortgages. Paying less for a 3 bed house than if you were renting. Nonetheless people still see reckless people to blame, these people had to borrow, otherwise they’d be accepting a second class place in society. Which is the point of all this the system we wanted to believe was fair so we gave credit to all and extending home ownership to all (like in the US subprime) but ultimately this system is not fair and the reality has come back to bite us yet again. It’s a wasted opportunity if Brown tries to return us to a system of rank inequality.

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  • carrotmaster
    Love rating 3
    carrotmaster said

    I find it interesting that everyone seems to want to find someone to blame. Blame is not going to help us get out of this mess. That does not mean that there aren't lessons to be learned, and I think many of us have learned them, but whether these are remembered by the right people next time around is a moot point.

    As several people have noted, borrowers are not all the same. They take many forms, and most have borrowed sensibly - they calculated that they could meet their repayments, although I would argue that many more should have considered whether they could continue to meet them in the event of a significant jump in interest rates, or a change in personal circumstances. Some others simply responded to the 'I want it all and I want it now' mantra, believing that as long as they were being given the money then surely that meant it was OK.

    Lesson: you need to demonstrate that you can meet your repayment commitments before you get given a loan.

    The biggest problem is probably peer pressure. It starts at school, when any kid that doesn't have the latest 'must-have' gadget is picked on. If parents give in to this (and all parents know that it is far from easy to resist!) then unless the child in some way has 'earned' the item, they are teaching their children that there is no such thing as 'payback time'. They also do not understand that actually they can only choose from a restricted list of desirable items that fall within their budget: they can't have them all.

    Lesson: you don't give a child anything they ask for without them doing something appropriate to 'earn' it. Something for nothing is a dead-end. And do not give further rewards/advances until the first one has been repaid.

    Finally; salaries and bonuses. An annual salary of greater than 100k or a bonus of more than 5k are not justifiable. Ever. There is a way for senior executives to make more money, and that is for them to buy shares in the corporation for which they work - and therefore share in the productive fruits of their labours and share in the risks. It means that good decisions are rewarded and bad decisions are punished.

    There are a lot more lessons, but this is already getting to be a long post!

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  • AleisterCrowley
    Love rating 5
    AleisterCrowley said

    "You are right Aleister! If we all had your intelligence and moral and financial integrity no one would be in this mess"

    Ha ha ! I assume there's a healthy bit of sarcasm there, but let me reassure you I'm as bad as everyone else (if not worse)... luckily I learnt my lesson many years ago and binned the credit cards...

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  • gordonpanderson
    Love rating 0
    gordonpanderson said

    Absolutely, Slickfingers, we are reaping the rewards of the 'I'm all right Jack' ethos spawned in the eighties and it's all right what you do if it makes you money (and you don't get caught). Of course nowadays even if you do get caught that's ok because we'll bale you out or give you a fat pay off so you can use your entrepreneurial talents to go do it again somewhere else.

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  • neptel
    Love rating 0
    neptel said

    To Mr Crowley and supporterts, this is one member of 'the public' offended by your sanctimonious, narrow comments.

    Who are these people who've had such a great 10 years, living a profligate lifestyle of luxury fuelled by credit.?

    Another media myth from my life experience.

    At age 56 the last 10 years have been like the rest - hardwork to earn the money to live a very normal lifestyle - 2 budget holidays in that time, struggle to pay increasing bills like council tax, fuel bills, food bills etc etc.

    I don't believe I'm alone - most of my very wide circle would say the same - I think we're the majority.

    We saved, bought a home with a mortgage, have a debit and credit card which are not over borrowed, had some savings, saw pension diminished, endowment values lost, retirement age put back and life turned upside down by financial and credit mismanagement not of our making.

    The last 10 years has seen a government tax and spend as though money grew on trees, waste the order of the day in so many of the supposed improvements. A government of absolute greed who if anyone lived the high life, it was them with their reliance on celebrity input at every opportunity.

    No regulation of banks or financial industry

    No control over an out of control benefit culture

    No control over immigration/asylum seeking with it's huge cost

    No control over spending on foreign aid

    In fact by those supposedly our betters - no control full stop!.

    As a small business try going to a bank or government advisor with a business plan that mirrors their way of behaving and you'd be patronised and refused - yet that's how they behave!

    You only need to look back to Barings with the very young Nick Leeson, to get a perfect example of the general lack of control and mismanagement which is endemic but nothing was done even then to remedy it by control. Is there any other industry that could in such a way?.

    The Banks have been totally protected, given a free ride and they are Banks fuelled by greed and a Government fuelled by greed with no care for control because that would mean accountability.

    So please don't patronise me and the great majority of the public who have lived our life as responsible, hard working people, who have not overborrowed or lived the high life but who now see whatever we've worked so hard for put in jeopardy by profligate Government and Financiers and a complete lack of the most basic controls.

    Reality is there is a Financial industry with such clever scams in their everyday methods that NO ONE understands what they are doing to allow the controls needed to be put in and the FSA is simply a toothless Tiger.

    The main points of this article address quite fairly the real situation, Government, Banks and Financial industry have caused this and yes a very tiny percentage of the public have been irresponsible borrowers. But lets face it, would any of us with a modicum of common sense lend to someone you knew didn't have the money to service that borrowing - only a fool would, yet the banks have done so and promoted such lending.

    To say it's all the borriwers fault is utter nonsense - credit is essential and if you need convincing of that just look at the problems lack of borrowing is now causing with business closure and job loss a daily news item. These people losing jobs are people like me who feel the rug has just been pulled from under us as a direct result of the Banks behaviour both before and now.

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  • slickfingers
    Love rating 0
    slickfingers said

    ooh don't forget the importance of the square mile and what it truely represents. the itchy palm club. whilst you have a society within a society that operates in secret joe public is always going to be on a looser.

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  • Yorkstyke
    Love rating 89
    Yorkstyke said

    Of course the banks were greedy and irresponsible but so were millions of consumers.

    This is yet another example of trying to justify the bubble that's now burst.

    Just watch, it won't be long before the vested interests, (the government, estate agents, retailers AND TMF etc), will be blaming us, the prudent majority for the crisis because we chose to save instead of spend.

    Crass hypocrisy!!

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  • zaplutus
    Love rating 0
    zaplutus said

    I agree with Harvey Jones that most people require a little advice and guidence when attepting to borrow money. I worked in a bank back in the 70's and when a customer sat down with the Manager to discuss a loan the objective was to establish whether or not he/she could afford to borrow. Before you would even be considered for a mortgage you had to have had a steady and consistent savings record with the bank. Then gradually at first these "prudent" managers and rules were phased out in favour of "sellers" until eventually this new breed took over completely. They knew about, thought about, talked about nothing but setting and reaching targets.

    I should make the point that there were droves of ordinary bankers who looked on horrified at the encroachment of this new breed and the way bank customers were used and manipulated. However none of them dare "come out" in the very real fear of losing job and pension.

    The scary thing is however these people are still at the helm of most of our banks and will steer us into the same mess again given half a chance. They have everything to gain and nothing to lose. Large salaries/pensions/bonuses and the taxpayer standing by to fund any black holes they may create.

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  • slickfingers
    Love rating 0
    slickfingers said

    you are right zaptulus but there is far more to it than just irresponsible bankers. there are losts of pieces to the puzzle that led to this.

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  • AleisterCrowley
    Love rating 5
    AleisterCrowley said

    Neptel - "To Mr Crowley and supporters, this is one member of 'the public' offended by your sanctimonious, narrow comments"

    Well you obviously haven't bothered actually READING the comments then...

    I never said it was “all the borrowers fault ”..

    I responded to TMFHomer’s statement “The blame lies SOLELY with the banks and building societies not with consumers” by pointing out that in SOME cases the borrowers need to share the blame because they knowingly overborrowed to fund the lifestyles they thought they ‘deserved’.

    I do agree with some of your points and I’m not suggesting the banks were innocent – on the contrary they are the main villains of the piece BUT – a bad debt (and an overinflated house price) can only happen with the willing participation of BOTH parties

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  • theclockman
    Love rating 0
    theclockman said

    How can anyone say that consumers are not to blame when we are borrowing more that the UK GDP? What sense is it that people can use the "gain" in the value of their property and spend it on consumption. But.....

    Financial regulators are supposed to regulate and they should have stopped financial institutions from suggesting that money borrowed never needs to be paid back and from lending to people who couln't pay back.

    Even so called responsible financial commentators suggesting that you just keep on taking our new "balance transfer" cards and never pay back

    your debt.

    The problem with the current situation is that people have suddenly realised that they have to stop spending, so companies lose sales, make redundancies and cause pain and mayhem.

    After all, 25% of people are employed by the Government - they haven't lost any money, people already umemployed on on disability haven't lost any money, students haven't lost any money.

    The sufferers in this situation are those people with savings (who by definition did not cause the problem) and those working in the private sector who have lost their jobs and their pensions.

    But I don't imagine senior person in the FSA or the Bank of England will lose their job or take a pay cut.

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  • keith1942
    Love rating 0
    keith1942 said

    off course banks must accept the majority of the blame they after all lent excesive amounts. ever since the 70's articles have been appearing how easy it is to obtain credit on the high street with out any proper checks what is was needed but opposed by ALL goverments was strong controls over the financial industry. the industry said they could control themselves and opposed goverment interferance. everyone should realise that without outside pressure all institutions will carryone regardless taking more and more risks until disaster overtakes them

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  • slickfingers
    Love rating 0
    slickfingers said

    bottom line. you can only borrow if idiots lend!

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  • LateDeveloper
    Love rating 22
    LateDeveloper said

    This started with the Conservatives and their monetary policies, and was merely extended by Labour with pretty similar monetary policies. What else do you expect from bankers and lenders that have had 20 years of doing what they liked, or rather refining their ways of extracting money from people.

    You have a U.S. based system that is based on consumerism, which must be paid for by some method, and the banks have fulfilled this niche with their financial products, backed of course by the Government.

    What has actually been done by this Government and the previous one, to protect you the consumer, very little. Even boards that were set up to protect the consumers have been phased out, all you have to do is look at who you have to complain to when faced with a problem regarding many of the companies and the procedures you are obliged to take now, compared to the ombudsman procedure that we used to have.

    That of course and the toothless quangos, typically the FSA which does not have the balls to do anything other than to try and get the banks to self regulate.

    This society has itself to blame for most of this stuff, since they have been force fed drivle, that they believe is the truth, whilst sitting back and accepting huge stealth taxes and under the table discussions and agreements between Governments and Big Business.

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  • ascentium
    Love rating 0
    ascentium said

    From the original article:

    "But most of the borrowing was on mortgages, secured against our largest and most solid asset, and the strange truth is that most of us could afford it."

    At the risk of oversimplifying, the strange truth is that we could only afford it because:

    A: The US Federal Reserve kept the discount rate (US Base rate equivalent) lower than perhaps it should have been, in the wake of the dot com bubble burst. AND

    B: Owing to the global interconnectedness of all things (another quote for the Douglas Adams fans!) the UK treasury and Bank of England had little choice but to follow.

    The "big lie" to my mind is Gordon and Tony taking the credit for the good times when they lasted.

    If they'd turned round THEN and said "sorry, people, but we in government can't really make that much of a difference to the economy compared to what the US and China do"... then we would forgive them blaming global forces now.

    The strangest truth of all is that we try to explain the result of billions of individual financial decisions in either a soundbite or even a web article... when actually, whole books have been, and will be written about the subject and STILL leave important facts out :-)

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  • gordonpanderson
    Love rating 0
    gordonpanderson said

    How can anyone say that consumers are not to blame when we are borrowing more that the UK GDP? (the Clockman)

    We are not borrowing more than the GDP. We are borrowing what in most cases we can afford to repay or are simply allowed to borrow. The organisations that finance and manage the borrowing allow it to TOTAL more than the nation's GDP. You can't expect the average borrower to be thinking the few grand they borrow is going to seriously impact on the national debt. "Oh I'd better not buy this new car in case it tips the county's economy over the edge" Indeed the message the Government are giving is that we had better buy the new car or industry will collapse and we will send the economy into freefall.

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  • ladyrosemary
    Love rating 0
    ladyrosemary said

    Wow what a great debate. I invite you all around for a cup of earl grey, and you can continue. I have such a mental picture of you all-----can't wait. By the way what was the discussion about----?

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  • drstupidity
    Love rating 0
    drstupidity said

    Big business is too blame. IMHO Any big business, banks, investment funds, developers and governments. As soon as they get too big they become complacent and wasteful. Globalization of business just added to the problems.

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  • delinear
    Love rating 0
    delinear said

    Hmm, it seems nobody has siezed on the real reason we're in this mess, which is that banks - having come up with the supposedly fool proof method of mitigating the risk in "sub prime" mortgages (i.e. securitisation) - were then stupid/greedy enough to buy into their own dream.

    Rather than offsetting the risk as originally planned, they suddenly thought that there was big money to be made buying up all that risk. At the time, of course, they were right because massive house-price inflation all but negated sub prime risk. Anyone could have predicted that wouldn't continue forever, but the banks were the ones foolish enough to buy into it, and before you blame the borrowers, remember that from the perspective of the banks, no mortgage was a bad risk as they had supposedly cracked the magic formula to offset all risk, so the entire industry was geared towards cajoling borrowers into taking out bigger and bigger mortgages.

    Sure, the borrowers also had a responsibility in this, but when you're told by the people who are meant to be the experts that your risk is negligible as your house price will continue to rise, and this is supported everywhere in the media and by government policy, banks, building societies, estate agents, etc then it's very difficult to be in that position and say no to the mortgage you're being offered - knowing that in doing so you're possibly ruling yourself out of the housing ladder for good.

    The fact is, most people acted in good faith on the basis of what they believed was good advice from the exact people who should have known better - the number of people who took out loans knowing they couldn't afford to repay them was a tiny percentage of buyers (and those are the borrowers who the ire in this ought to be directed at). I was one of the ones who managed to resist the temptation (I was looking at a 100% mortgage, the estate agent was trying to get me to go for 110% even though I didn't need it! I had a bad feeling about the market in August 2007 though so backed out and a month later Northern Rock crashed).

    No, the blame here falls on the banks not because they made the sub-prime loans - because securitisation would have protected the system if used properly - but because their greed caused them to buy back the very loans they were desperate to offset in the first place.

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  • Fingered
    Love rating 0
    Fingered said

    This finger pointing and outpouring of negative emotions is what we can expect during a large scale downturn. Experts say it might get worse before it gets better. My view is it might get a bit better e bit better before it gets a heck of awhole lot worse. - Look at the Paris riots for flavour of what's to come.

    Aren't the real culprits our successive Governments in not just the UK but many countries where they rcevieve funding into their political coffers and other back-handers from many businesses and industry groups to grease the skids for lobbying to gain favours through reliefs, convenient lax regulations and laws?

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  • Fingered
    Love rating 0
    Fingered said

    This finger pointing and outpouring of negative emotions is what we can expect during a large scale downturn. Experts say it might get worse before it gets better. My view is it might get a bit better e bit better before it gets a heck of awhole lot worse. - Look at the Paris riots for flavour of what's to come.

    Aren't the real culprits our successive Governments in not just the UK but many countries where they rcevieve funding into their political coffers and other back-handers from many businesses and industry groups to grease the skids for lobbying to gain favours through reliefs, convenient lax regulations and laws?

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  • ajas77
    Love rating 0
    ajas77 said

    A useful article,good discussion and it just demonstrates there were many contributary factors to the mess the Country and many individuals are in. Yes, the prudent have been able to see for a long time that trouble was looming; but even the most prudent if they are in the wrong job in the wrong industry could not protect themseves from this scale of recession. What caused the immensity of this recession? Answer; Government were not prudent. The whole Regulatory Framework, that costs a lot of money, failed us. The B of E didn't listen to the brightest member of its own interest rate panel, the FSA was pathetically invisible, but what were the big Accountancy Firms doing through their Auditors in signing off Banks and others' accounts supported massively by little more than bundles of dodgy, toxic,unstainable morgages? And its the same firms charging their massive fees to wind up all the failing businesses! What about a Royal Commission into the lamentable performance of this important profession?

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  • Tanar
    Love rating 0
    Tanar said

    'What about a Royal Commission into the lamentable performance of this important profession?'

    What!!!

    More millions spent in whitewash and jobs for the boys?

    No thanks, lets just wait for the revolution!

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  • neptel
    Love rating 0
    neptel said

    Mr Crowley thanks for your advice on reading but when I was taught English, a direct quote differentiated from a comment by being placed in quotation marks. You might follow your own advice.

    You are expert so can you please explain what steps I could have or can take to identify or prevent an over inflated house price and indeed the price of food, fuel, heating, tax, council tax, road fund duty, insurance, transport costs etc etc.

    Please don't say it's by the ballot box because my democratic rights have been denied on the Lisbon Treaty and my unelected Prime Minister is also preventing my democratic right to vote by retaining power in the dictatorship he heads supported by his snouts in the trough cohorts.

    Finally your comment re bad debt needing Both parties - I have to disagree - yesterday I received a letter re a credit card I hold but infrequently use, they were pleased to confirm an unrequested increase to £14,400, last week my bank wrote telling me I had an unrequested guaranteed loan available of £7500 (or more).

    Both parties - I think not - even in these dreadful times, the Banks have not learned any lesson.

    With respect take off the blinkers and come into the real world the rest of us have to live in.

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  • slickfingers
    Love rating 0
    slickfingers said

    delinear, i accept your point however having worked part time as an estage agent you have to be on the other side to judge them. thats why i gave it a go. but the bosses if you are realistic or state the obvious you are classed as negative and your job is on the line so even if you try to advise people properly you're in trouble which was why i left. i could and would not lie to people. but that is because i had different morals to a lot of the people in the business. simlarly the greedy will always be greedy whether they are bankers finance experts or whatever. while there is greed people will suffer.

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  • Fingered
    Love rating 0
    Fingered said

    Well done Fool!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yet another contentious topic to allow your readers an oppourtunity to vent their negativity and outrage. i wonder why. ....Do you write these articles on purpose? :-) They get quite entertaining and CONFIRM the increasing mass herding of negative mood in society.

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  • Fingered
    Love rating 0
    Fingered said

    Ladyrosemary, please put he kettle on, please reserve a spectator seat for me. .....I'm on my way.

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  • neptel
    Love rating 0
    neptel said

    Fingered - how can we create an opportunity for positivity ?

    Here's my offering, I'm blessed by..........

    My good health

    My 80 year old Mum alive and well after ill health

    My family

    My 4 year old cousin (my surrogate child in her eyes to my delight) home from school asking me if I knew Barack Obama was President of America!

    My good friends and neighbours

    My ability to pay my bills - just

    My parents for ensuring good values and best education in a very poor inner city area

    My good credit rating

    My home and garden

    That I have food, water, fresh air and heat (rationed a bit)

    Optimisn that it will improve (slowly)

    Belief that there are more good people in the world than bad

    That there is opportunity if we're prepared to open our minds and find it and work at it

    That even argumentative feedback to this article shows there is still a moral standing which knows good and bad, right and wrong

    That I know greed is the root of most evil

    That the day will come when we can all vote

    That I am materially satisfied and don't need the 'latest' to validate my worth

    That I still care

    Over to you 'Fools'!

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  • Fingered
    Love rating 0
    Fingered said

    Won't be too long now before stock markets keel over again........

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  • slickfingers
    Love rating 0
    slickfingers said

    neptel. how marvelous it is to read your statement. in short you count your blessings. you are admirable.

    isn't it a shame that those at the top don't share that view or understand that ordinary people are needed and need to be treated fairly.

    ps lady roesmary you can save me a seat too i love a brew.

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  • deloco121
    Love rating 0
    deloco121 said

    Neptel,

    Your posts are absolutely spot on. Don't suppose you fancy running for Government?

    After all, we already have one un-elected leader.

    Alestier, sorry but over-inflated house prices do NOT only happen with the willing participation of both parties. Why on earth would a buyer willingly pay over inflated prices?

    Anyway, you must have made a bit on the sale of Boleskine, on Loch Ness.

    I jest of course about the last part.

    Great discussion all the same.

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  • AleisterCrowley
    Love rating 5
    AleisterCrowley said

    "Why on earth would a buyer willingly pay over inflated prices?"

    Thousands have... mainly beacuse they believed the housing market was a 'one way bet' and prices only ever went up. (Thanks to Phil and Kirsty et al -purveyors of Property Porn)

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  • chris280
    Love rating 0
    chris280 said

    Look to the future!

    Look to how you can make a difference to the future!

    Look to see how you can help someone less fortunate than yourself!

    That way we create a better more positive society.

    Smile at a stranger and say hello!

    It's the only way!!!

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  • Fingered
    Love rating 0
    Fingered said

    Hi Neptel.

    All fantastically fabulous qualities and aspects to have in your life. Hang on to all them dearly with both hands.I wish you well.

    As for how we create postive mood. - This unfortuneately relates to collective mass mood and is governed collectively by an "unconscious" area of people's brains

    - the limbic system that controls emotions such as greed and fear. This has nothing to do with our abilities in a "conscious" state to rationalize and be logical which is another area of our brain.

    Simply put, this mass herding mood when it swings to the negative, has to work it's way through over time in pulses of peaks and troughs. Similarly when mood is on the positive side it goes up into euphria zone by progressive swings

    of up and down peaks and troughs.

    The scale of negative mood swings to the downside is likely to get very serious indeed unfortuneately as we enter into a deflationary period. This is no ordinary pull back, or recession. We daily here on the news of unprecedented this, unprecedented that.

    Records being broke since records began eg bank rates at lowest for hundreds of yeas. etc etc etc. Record monthly unemployment figures that are accelerating higher - Repo's climbing.

    Government bailouts throughout history for example haven't worked in stopping downturns in their tracks and reversing the overall course downwards to upwards - and won't work now

    either.

    This could very easily aggressively deepen over a number of years.

    Take care.

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  • deloco121
    Love rating 0
    deloco121 said

    Mr Crowley,

    Thousands have, yes. Not because they thought it was a one way bet that could not fail, but because they had to if they wanted to try and get a foothold on the housing ladder.

    Nobody in their right mind should willingly pay over inflated prices for anything. These prices are based on surveys etc and people do in fact try to haggle over these deals.

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  • chris280
    Love rating 0
    chris280 said

    I would suggest we don't get personal but stay objective. The only people that can get us out of this mess is the Great British Public, with a little help from the rest of the world.

    Someone has to start thinking positively so lets start here. TMF write an article that is positive, I wonder how many comments that will get?

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  • slickfingers
    Love rating 0
    slickfingers said

    i agree chris lets be positive! dipense with all politicians and freemasons and then we might have a chance. have a good weekend all.

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  • Fingered
    Love rating 0
    Fingered said

    How's the kettle doing?

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  • AleisterCrowley
    Love rating 5
    AleisterCrowley said

    "dispense with all politicians "

    Now that I DO agree with...

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  • ggpessimist
    Love rating 0
    ggpessimist said

    Oh dear Estate Agents are evil again. Clearly slickfingers as well as having politeness and literacy issues had concentration problems when he was working for an Estate Agent. Like every business and profession including it would seem our revered House of Lords a small percentage of agents are corrupt.

    Generally though most try to do their job which is to try to get the best price for their client: the vendor of the property. Property is rarely misdescribed these days ; the legal penalties are far too serious but no agent is going to underdescribe a property. Gazumping and all those unhappy practises are as a result of the agent being duty bound to pass on all offers to threir clients who almost without exception accept the higher offer. Agents only benefit very marginally from a price hike on a particular property. Rapidly escalating house prices are the result of supply and demand;imho slightly hysterical demand was whipped up by irresponsible media, property porn etc.

    Not sure why surveyors come in for flack: a valuer has to look at comparable property before arriving at his figure of value: if he doesn't and undervalues he can be sued. They do not drive the matrket; merely reflect it.

    The villains? Collective media driven consumer greed fuelled by apallingly lax lending by financial institutions of all types with a supine smug government watching the whole applecart rolling downhill out of control.

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  • chris280
    Love rating 0
    chris280 said

    Kettles on anyone like a nice cuppa Tea?

    Maybe all the Bankers ( I'm sure there is a rhyme there)should pay back their bonuses for the last five years? Or maybe we sieze the assest of those in charge of the Banks and finance houses.

    We should certainly havethat in place going forward, it would make the Bankers??? Think twice.

    Have a jolly good weekend and letes start next week positively.

    Oh, did you hear about the nursery ryhme "what shall we do with teh drunken sailor", well apparently a government think tank ( do gooding PC brigade) have said children can no longer use the words drunken sailor as it turns them into drinks. Couldn't spell alchoholic.

    Why can't we the public raise a vote of n confidence in the Government, lets scare the Tories, imagine taking over this mess.

    Must be positive.

    I will be positive

    I will be positive

    I will be positive

    I will be positive

    I will be positive

    I will be positive

    I will be positive

    I will be positive

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  • chris280
    Love rating 0
    chris280 said

    ggpessimist

    COme on all Estate Agents cannot be trusted in teh same way ALL politicians should not be trusted.

    In the current market an estate agent will drop your asking price so that he will get a quick sale, it's economics they have to make money to surive. Sorry I should say He or She in these polictical correct times. Oh to hell with it he, the PC brigade can go take a jump IMHO.

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  • chris280
    Love rating 0
    chris280 said

    "COme on all Estate Agents cannot be trusted in teh same way ALL politicians should not be trusted".

    I meant to say Estae agents SHOULD not be trusted. Sorry if I offended.

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  • bouleversee
    Love rating 0
    bouleversee said

    I use a credit card for convenience and pay the balance off at the end of each month. Our house is now unmortgaged; our mortgage was always relatively small in relation to value and affordable. I have never hankered for designer goods and gizmos and have always saved. Like others here, we have suffered serious losses in shares and now can earn little interest. May sound smug but I had a fairly frugal upbringing and was taught to live within my means. However, our children, having observed what has happened to our savings, live for today, not on credit but they don't save much, and who can blame them?

    The bonus culture is partly to blame. Employees of banks had to meet selling targets in order to achieve bonuses so dodgy loans were made. If the lenders had been permanently stuck with those loans instead of being able to parcel them up and sell them on in an endless game of pass the parcel, they might have been more cautious. Instead, the game went full circle and they hadn't a clue what risks they were buying. But have we heard anything about stopping this nonsense and making lenders responsible for their own risks rather than selling them on? I don't think so.

    Once we have got over this recession, there will always be some smartarse dreaming up another financial product that nobody understands but they still manage to sell, in order to finance their own lavish, commission/bonus based lifestyle. Why can't we have a regulation that all loans must remain with the lender who will then more carefully assess the risks before parting with the dosh. Too simplistic, I suppose.

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  • Iniq
    Love rating 27
    Iniq said

    A good, sensible and well-informed article which I endorse.

    But please don't spoil good writing by the illiterate misuse of words like "obscenity". Quote: "There were some lending obscenities, of course."

    "Obsecenity" is an activity like a woman offering her tiny children for sale for sexual purposes in a German railway station or a man trying to have sexual intercourse with a six-month-old baby (both shocking, disgusting but real reported incidents). Please don't devalue the word.

    However outrageous or shocking, no financial scandal is "obscene".

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  • VillageGossip
    Love rating 0
    VillageGossip said

    Harvey,

    I am a Brit that lives in the US through this manic period I have kept my Brit head on and stayed safe so far. I am not interested in who is to blame, we are in it now let's get out of it by using some sensible strategy. The US is offering 30 year fixed rate mortgages to the right people at very attractive rates, I am wondering is this the time to take advantage? There is a large part of me that say's cash is King and if we drop into deflation and the 1930's come rolling back Cash is what we need. What are your thoughts on this?

    Foolishly

    Villagegossip

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  • Fingered
    Love rating 0
    Fingered said

    Harvey, Cash is indeed King I beleive. All assett classes are deflating, though there maybe bounces up, we have hit some bottoms but not the THE bottom. - so I would stay as liquid as you can. If banks are hoarding cash - maybe there's a hidden message there for you to do likewise. The "Senior Currency" being the $ is likely to win out over a basket of others. If you were to think Treasuries, think the short end of the yield curve as probably being the safest. Housing assetts likely still have a ways to go yet in USA and elsewhere in falling, so you could pick up your dream McMansion for less cents on the buck in the future.

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  • Fingered
    Love rating 0
    Fingered said

    ooops, that was fo you Villagegossip.

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  • VillageGossip
    Love rating 0
    VillageGossip said

    Fingered,

    Interesting view, this is what I have been thinking but it's good to get another view.

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  • ben7fit
    Love rating 0
    ben7fit said

    All of the above narratives were heard coming from lemmings as they fell from a cliff top!

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  • Max878
    Love rating 37
    Max878 said

    I agree with AleisterCrowley. You could extend your argument and say that it wasn't the banks' fault because nobody was regulating them, and it wasn't the FSA's fault because nobody was regulating them blah blah blah. Ok, they're all overpaid incompetents, but however much you want it to, it doesn't alter the fact that a lot of people borrowed a lot of money that they couldn't pay back. That was their responsibility and you can't pretend that they didn't understand that paying it back is part of the borrowing process.

    And to those suggestint that it doesn't matter who's to blame - yes, it does! It wasn't me and I'm paying for it and I'm bloody cross about it!

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  • gordonpanderson
    Love rating 0
    gordonpanderson said

    But when you're selling something to someone you know might not pay it back because you want your bonus and the person eager to get a roof over their head and fulfill the American (and now British) dream of owning your own home believes you when you tell them that they can afford it (because you're the expert)then you are at fault. If a taxi driver takes a fare from London to Edinburgh without first checking that the passenger knows the cost and has the money, who is the ass?

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  • kalmarian
    Love rating 0
    kalmarian said

    What about savers in all this blame? I have never had a morgage, nor have ever borrowed from a bank. I paid 6% of my salary towards a pension and 9% towards AVCs. Unfortunately this was with Equitable Life and we know what happened there. My fault? No, I blame Mr Brown. Any savings I have are now almost useless so whose fault is that? I have never lived above my means, but how am I supposed to manage now as a pensioner when whatever I have tried to do to support myself in old age has failed!

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  • Fingered
    Love rating 0
    Fingered said

    Villagegossip,

    In the US, you have seen at least 30 banks go pop last year. far higher than in Europe ( well so far that is!)

    You have various states where the municipalties, are, in essence verging on bankruptcy already.

    Reading up on articles on the web as to what transpired in your great during the 30's will open your eyes

    to what is possibly going to unfold in a simliar fashion. The US government is not immune to stuffing it's own people.

    Choose your banks carefully where you hold your "cash" is a consideration, Whilst your cash is in their hands, it's nothing more than a mere "IOU"

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  • ggpessimist
    Love rating 0
    ggpessimist said

    Come on Chris 280: "All estate Agents should not be trusted". Didn't you read my paragraphs: most are reasonably decent human beings trying to do a fair job for their clients not stitch them up. They are'nt silly and want repeat business and word of mouth recommendation.

    A good agent is your best ally in these troubled times: treat him fairly & he will do his damndest to sell your house at a good price: jolly difficult to know where to value in a falling marketthough.

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  • Fingered
    Love rating 0
    Fingered said

    Kettle has boiled....have fun bickering. Bye all.

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  • houghtie
    Love rating 0
    houghtie said

    I've not read this article as I can guess what the content is with a quick scan of some of the titles, so apols if some of what I say is already mentioned in here.

    WHAT ANYONE ENTERING A CONTRACT FOR A LARGE SUM OF MONEY SHOULD UNDERSTAND IS WHAT THAT CONTRACT MEANS TO THEM. Borrowing a considerable amount of money or lending it for that matter should not be something taken likely. Both the borrowers and lenders of money are to blame for this mess and MORE OVER those who are suppose to regulate the flow of money through borrowing. I suppose buyers of tulips in the tulip craze centuries ago thought they were getting a good deal and a couple of years ago buyersof houses also thought they were on a one way street. Unfortunately prices usually revert to mean (usually after overshooting to the downside after previously overshooting the other way), the credit bubble that both borrowers and lenders willingly contributed (I don't take ignornance as an excuse, but put much of mortgage lending down to greed) have contributed to this asset price bubble. Now problems are coming home to roost. Forget about blame (borrowers) and just get yourselves sorted out as best you can (unforntunately for some that's going to mean financial ruin, but when your wealths is based on the never-never you'll soon come unstuck)! JUST REMEMBER A COMMENT FROM THE 1930s (stolen by Warren Buffet), YOU ONLY FIND OUT WHO'S WEARING NO TRUNKS WHEN THE TIDE GOES OUT.

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  • houghtie
    Love rating 0
    houghtie said

    Fingered, just read your post about the dollar. I think you could be very wrong. The dollar is currently the reserve currency, but if the US debases its currency that won't last long. It could drop like a stone. Unforntunately we're seeing the kind of thing that could happen to US down the line with the GBP at the mo'. Insurance garantees to banks to make loans into a deflating asset bubble what's all that about!! My pensions currently all in UK gilts(which had been doing rather nicely), as soon as they recover a little I'm out of there before they plummet again! THE ONLY THING HOLDING US DOLLAR AT ITS CURENT INFLATED LEVEL IS RETURNS OF CAPITAL TO THE US AND CHINESE HOLDINGS OF USDs.

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  • bez1211
    Love rating 0
    bez1211 said

    Yawn Yawn Yawn!!! The ever rumbling battle between the blameless billionaire bankers and the saintly who live in shoe boxes, eat sawdust and wear dandelion leaves through puritanical responsibility. This all seems to boil down to two things. Banks are about making money. End of. They will do it no matter how and as we have seen, when they cock up, they then start whipping around like a lizard in a tin searching for someone to blame. The consumer, however, wants to live a decent life and when they are bombarded with the idea that credit is the way to go because the economy is so strong they probably take that as advice. And there's the rub.

    As consumers, we can't know everything and so we use the services of advisers. We defer to them and trust that their advice is good and their 'Professional' qualifications and designatory letters (CEMAP etc.) are supposed to convey that such trust is justified. So if a consumer has taken advice and been told 'all is well' by someone who is supposed to know why should they seek further than that. On the other hand the banks are the very people who are supposed to know. They run the financial system AND THEY KNOW IT! They are the people who have computer models, affordability calculators and complex qualifications so what are they whining about? If anybody should have seen this coming the banks should. They are also the only ones who could have stopped it! We take advice every day. My Doctor tells me not to smoke because it causes cancer, so I listen, he's the guy who knows! If I smoke and get a smoking related disease I can't complain that I had no idea what would happen. My doctor also realizes that if I try to remove his appendix it will probably kill him so he'd never let me do it. I see it as a bit rich, then, that the highly qualified bankers and advisers want to berate the labourer and plumber for taking their advice to begin surgery. Grow up! You are the guys who know. And to the sawdust eaters, you sound sickeningly satisfied watching all this. The whole argument looks like a parent who advised a twelve year old that drugs are good, throws them out when they become addicted to be gloated at by the neighbours who have never so much as passed wind!

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  • john8pies
    Love rating 0
    john8pies said

    Point taken, Bez1211 (and well put, if I may say, without sounding patronising!) but the fact remains that no, it wasn`t THE PUBLIC who are to blame as such - it was only those MEMBERS of the public who deliberately took on mortgages and loans which they knew they couldn`t really afford (along with greedy bankers and commission hungry sales people, of course). Many people were OFFERED the loans but only the irresponsible took them up with such gusto, without a hope in hell`s chance of repaying them.

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  • Bartron
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    Bartron said

    Has to be considered a great article - just look at the response. I have to pick up on Aleister Crowley's comments. Not everyone is so financially aware and the people who have the least knowledge and experience are the ones at the bottom. these are many of the first time buyers, with the lowest incomes, the most vulnerable to overstretching. And the people most likely to default and who shouldn't have been lent so much money. It may take two to tango but when one of the dancers is considerably larger than the other we know who's going to lead. Picking up on DerKrobsen point about moving from Industry to Financial services. The problem we have now is partly down to the fact that we didn't notice that we had moved from Financial Services to Financial SALES. When you aren't as financially aware you can rely on people you think can be trusted. You might have trusted a banker, but would you ever trust a sales person?

    Going back to Aleister and his pie shop analogy. If people need to eat and all they are offered is pies then yes we can blame the pie shops. People need somewhere to live and the private rental market has been particularly unattractive for several years. Add to this that we have all had it drummed into us that renting is dead money, and that you can buy a house for practically the same cost as renting, well what do you expect? And how many "financial experts" have been saying that we can afford to pay up to 6 times our earnings because our housing costs take up a lower proportion of our monthly spend that previously?

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  • dickbush
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    dickbush said

    My vote on who is nearest to the truth goes to accountantsmum.

    The consumer can't borrow unless the banks/building societies are willing to lend-just look at today's situation. Consumers didn't create 125% mortgages and "liar loans". Our banks and building societies' managements needed to make ever-increasing loans to increase their companies' profits and THEIR bonuses. If it took ever-increasing multiples of income to keep the ball rolling. So be it. If it needed ever-less able borrowers. So be it. If it neede reduced regulation. Just get Angela Knight and the gang together and tell the Government and the Fundamentally Supine Authority that even more people can own their own house if regulations are eased. And, just to add insult to injury, they go out and borrow "cheap money" in the wholesale market to invest in even worse US mortgages (the US housing market topped out even before ours did if they had bothered to look) and their derivatives. supposedly to earn a higher rate of return than the cost of that borrowing. Of course, there was no risk. After all, house prices always go up! Were these guys still in short trousers in 1990/92?

    What really ticks me off, though, is that, in the main, these same, incredibly lazy, greedy, idiots are still running the show and the Government is allowing them to make a bad situation worse: tossing people out of their homes and selling their houses at knock down prices only reduces further and further the price of all houses, putting more and more people in negative equity, further reducing consumer confidence and consumer spending, which makes up circa 2/3rds of the British economy.

    Its appalling. And pathetic.

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  • houghtie
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    houghtie said

    bez1211, don't think you should pigeon hole. I imagine there are lots of people who have lived within their means and equally lots who haven't and then there are people who wear "dandelion shoes" whatever they may be.

    I live in a nice big house bought at the top of the market without a mortgage (a big mistake, but probably wouldn't have had our second child if we hadn't moved out of our flat), and you have to have somewhere to live. I shop at ASDA. I have a nice porfolio of goverment bond (both UK and foreign, remaining UK ones to be sold soon!) and a large investment in RUFFER investment trust held for just over a year now, a little in gold. I have a rental property I bought after the 92 mess. I never overpay for things such as holidays. Both me and my wife work in well paid jobs (hence quite a few assets), but we both work hard.

    The only lesson people should learn, whether it be bankers or those over borrowed (whether wealthy or not) is live within your means and be careful with your money, we all make mistakes and if all your eggs are in one basket then watch out if you make one (especially if its not your money you are using to purchase it).

    Last of all, everyone makes mistakes, just learn from them and move on, don't just cast around looking for someone to blame, (as if that's your real aim you may well need to look closer to home). As they say in the US, shit happens.

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  • houghtie
    Love rating 0
    houghtie said

    Bartron, I haven't even read the article only scanned the headlines and can make a good guess that its skewed rubbish. The only reason I dropped into it was cos I thought it had such a stupid headline in the motley fool mail I received (they usually get deleted anyway without me reading them as there's no insight in any of the articles on here). If you want to understand what's really happening in the world money and finance wise get some balanced views. Suggested reading:

    http://ftalphaville.ft.com/

    http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/

    Probably could give a few more, but I guess you can find them for yourself. BTW, have a look at the previous aftermaths of credit crises in the US. You just need to search for depression and the years 1837, 1873, 1893 and the other one you'll already know about 1929. You see what happens after credit binges and over expansions. Some of the 1837 comments are pretty appocalyptic. Look at:

    http://www.thehistorybox.com/ny_city/panics/panics_article6a.htm

    Read "Volume: IV Pages: 204-209 (extract)", and then read anything from Nouriel Roubini or Robert Schiller, sound familiar? Atleast we've got safety nets these days but its gong to be very grim over the next few years.

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  • Najman
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    Najman said

    What has not been mentioned is the very high interest rates that were given to those who were given loans but considered a risky customer.

    This also applied to those who only wanted to borrow smaller amounts of less than £5000. In fact some banks dont even advertise smaller loans so someone who only needed a short term loan of say £2000 was penalised with a higher interest rate or persuaded to take out a £5000 loan as it was a 'better deal'.

    Another thing banks do as well with customers who are already having difficulty keeping up payments is to 'renegotiate' the loan. I was once offered lower payments over a period of twice as long as my current arrangement on which the interest alone was MORE than what i currently owed!!!! Needless to say I turned it down as being in debt an extra 5 yrs AND paying for the privelage is not my idea of a bank trying to help me get out of my difficult situation.

    Instead it was agreed i would make regular smaller payments that could afford to stick with which was fine until the bank renaged and decided to take the origional amount out of my account causing me to go overdrawn and meaning that other carefully budgeted bills were not paid and incurred rejection fees. This has happened on a few occasions now without warning.

    On a positive note though - well done Obama on calling the $18 billion bonuses paid to the Wall Street fat cats to themselves as shamful. This is why the banks and big businesses are losing money as even in the current climate they set aside money which could help thier institution recover for thier own.

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  • houghtie
    Love rating 0
    houghtie said

    High interest rates! Why borrow the money? Did they really neede it? Why not save or just endeavor to earn more?

    You pay for risk if you are are risk to a financial organisation and you want to borrow money you pay more for your riskiness, end of. Next thing you'll be saying that drink drivers should have low insurance rates.

    Problem was the banks did really fail to measure their risks and also got seduced by "its different this time" syndrome.

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  • houghtie
    Love rating 0
    houghtie said

    neptel, sounds like you need some better financial advise. Then again you could always do some reading up. And how does that saying go .. once bitten twice shy? What's different fundamnetally between your endowment and your pension in trems of the investment (probably not a lot)? Guess you got a bit of a shock on your endowment a few years ago, guess your pension got wacked after 2000. Didn't you think about why that happened? Did you think everything was rosy again during the years after 2003 (pension wise). Don't just bury your head in the sand and look for someone to blame.

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  • Najman
    Love rating 0
    Najman said

    Next thing you'll be saying that drink drivers should have low insurance rates.

    ehmm vast difference between getting behind a wheel of a potentially lethal weapon and being sold a loan - unless of course said car was bought with a loan...............

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  • houghtie
    Love rating 0
    houghtie said

    Apols if I took things to extremes with the example but just making a point. Not sure if you got it though.

    Financial institutions lend money on a risk basis. The more of a risk they see you as, the higher the rate. Insurance policies work in exactly the same way. People conicted of drink driving are considered a high risk, therefore are weighted accordingly for insuarnce. So are borrowers. BTW you had an option in terms of your high rate, don't borrow the money in the first place. Ironically if you hadn't you would probably have a better credit rating now and when times get better would be able to borrow the money cheaper.

    Its a funny old thing risk!

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  • houghtie
    Love rating 0
    houghtie said

    Najman.

    Another way of looking at this, you've got 2 mates, both want to borrow a grand off you. One you trust in terms of whether they are likely to pay you back the other not. (BTW I'm talking from their earnings potential and current debts not whether they'll pull a runner)

    Who would you lend to to?

    Now if the mate who was more of risk offered you an extra hundred when he paid you back would that change things?

    Hope that example is a little clearer (but obviously you don't proposition your bank in that way its the other way round).

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  • neptel
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    neptel said

    Houghtie - would you mind writing in english then - we might understand you - it's so difficult with tso much sand around!

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  • RiverAsUsual
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    RiverAsUsual said

    An irrelevant article really. It's not important who's to blame, most important is what we do to cope with such eventualities.

    I've saved up quite a lot over recent years with the intention of buying a property.

    As property prices rocketed (faster than my savings + interest) it seemed too much like a pyramid scheme with everyone pushing themselves to their financial limits so I decided just to continue saving.

    When the 'unforeseen' problems occurred, my savings interest plummets, borrowers are 'rewarded' with lower interest repayments and then have the audacity to complain! What are THEY moaning about???????????????

    They are better off (YET AGAIN), I am worse off (YET AGAIN).

    So stop the pointless blame game and spend the extra £££ (that you've been, indirectly, gifted by us savers) which is obviously burning a hole in your thriftless pockets.

    Oh wait... you wised up and decided to pay off those maxed out credit cards at our expense first.

    Talk about a nanny state!!!

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  • stuartpetergraha
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    stuartpetergraha said

    Excellent debate.

    I really think that house prices and housing is seen as a way to make money in the UK (and US, Spain, Ireland, Australia and NZ to name a few). We don't make anything any more and people like being practical and doing things. The house seems the perfect way to make money, buy (stop renting), do some DIY, and watch prices rise. Then the music stops and a percentage are few without a house.

    What we need is some simple economic policy in this cycle to break it once and for all. Here are three suggestions:

    1)Limit the amount we can borrow in total. To reduce supply of money. This will reduce house price inflation, but will still allow rising prices in line with rising wages.

    2)Include housing costs in core inflation, as a farly large percentage (25%), so if house prices start to go up say more than 2% above average wages this is counted as inflation and added to the inflation calculations for the rest of the basket of good the Bank of England uses. This would increase interest rates and discourage the over borrowing, while encouraging savings. People would soon learn, that rising interest meant they should save a bigger deposit before moving (first home or subsequent).

    Finally, unless you change jobs to a new area or split up with a partner or some given fair situation, there should be a sliding scale of capital gains tax placed on moving. If you live in a house for say 10 years and move there is no tax, if you live in the house for less than 1 year the gain is taxed at your marginal tax rate. If you move after two years then 90% of the gain is taxed at marginal tax rate. This way the buy renovate (usually badly) group would be paying tax on their profits. This would discourage speculation and encourage longer term communities. If you know you will need to stay ten years to get a tax free return, then you are likely to enter the process with more deposit and thought.

    The taxation of capital gains for sales before ten years, would raise extra revenue for the government. This revenue could be used to cut the inheritance tax at the other end for our off spring. If you have a legitimate reason to move, ie divorce or relocation for work, then no tax would be charge, but otherwise the same tax levelled on all.

    This would encourage us to buy only three or four houses in a life time. The starter, family and retirement would be the order of the day for most.

    House price increase above GDP and wage growth are usually just speculationa nd the last three have ended in tears. If I were older and seen the cycle befor ethat one I am sure it would be the same. It is just a shame people can learn with houses, tulips only took us once to learn, houses seem to have to bite us at least once in every generation.

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  • houghtie
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    houghtie said

    neptel, contents more important than a few typos. But maybe you haven't anything to say on the content. Its only a comment on an article can't be bothered spell checking.

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  • houghtie
    Love rating 0
    houghtie said

    RiverAsUsual, don't worry about the interest rate on your savings. Houses priceswill be falling so if proterties's your goal you are still earning a good return in cash and there's a good chance we'll be in a deflationary environment next year so you'll be earning real returns (e.g yourrate of return measured against inflation probably will be as good at 2% next year as it was when it was 5% a few years ago). I'd worry more about the goverment creating large amounts of inflation in a few years while they try and deal with the UK implosion.

    Bide your time for while, property prices have dropped so far due to credit restrictions, the recessionary effects (or worse) have not had any effect yet (probably). Pople have sit put during the credit restrictions they won't have that choice if they lose their job (unless of course our reckless goverment bails them out, how crazy would that be! Oh I forgot they've already made moves down that path).

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  • houghtie
    Love rating 0
    houghtie said

    stuartpetergraha, nice thought on inflation, but have you thought about how this could affect the cost of business lending in future?

    Its an answer to problem of the past few years don't think we'll have to deal with that issue for at least a few decades now.

    Increasing stamp duty on houses dramatically (as per continetal northern europe) would stifle speculation and help people to focus on long term property goals (moving is already full of hidden expenses that people don't tend to count).

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  • Hitman101
    Love rating 1
    Hitman101 said

    It is fair to say that the blame for this mess is everyone's responsibility.

    First and formost it is the Banks responsibility, because they were irresponsible in offering unrealistic products and services and used unethical business practices to pull in desperate consumers and give them loans they were clearly unable to honour potentially in all but the most optimistic of circumstances. It is the overriding greed that leads banks to try to milk consumers for every penny they can by offering such dubious products and services and by loading these products with unrealistic and unfair terms and penalties.

    Then it is fair to say that most (but not all) consumers do not have their priorities in life sorted. Paying Bills, saving for a rainy day, or perhaps to cover the cost of raising children for the most part comes a dim and distant last place behind living for the moment. Particularly but not exclusively the younger more irresponsible adults who are only interested in endless supplies of unhealthy food, drinks, drugs, sex and shopping to namke the most common vices. Not to say that everyone is that bad but the majority are. How many of the so called seven deadly sins can they break?!!!

    Finally I find it appropriate to include Governments to have a controlling interest in the responsibility since it is the weak and ineffective policies including self-regulation and toothless independant regulators who make token gestures when it is clear that most people and people in businesses will behave irresponsibly for the sake of a greater profit regardless but might only reconsider an action if the consequences of such an action are dire, life shattering consequences and they see that others have suffered such consequences. Banks will always operate as they have unless they are restrained and controlled by laws which dictate what they can or cannot do. This does not mean they cannot be competative, but it does mean that they cannot rip of consumers or bring the economy to it's knees by acting irreponsible with loaning of money when the economy is in good shape, then refusing to loan money or function as banks when they start to make losses and the economy becomes shaky as is the case now inspite of ridiculous sums of public money being pumped into these businesses and being provided as guarentees against dubious loans.

    The answer here is to instantiate laws controlling how commercial and financial entities such as banks, insurance companies as well as regular business are allowed to practice to the point where such practices must follow some form of decent ethical and moral value and that products and services may require certification or approval before they are allow to be made available to customers.

    But the cause in general I am afraid to say it the greed of people and the cause for that is how society is evolving and that is principally dictated by how we raise our children.

    I find it really sad that children are being raised in such a manner that can lead them into irresponsible and wreckless lives and that they are not taught that their actions will have serious consequences. I'm not religous in the slightest, but where are all those so called ethical and moral values that so called religous people of various belief systems are supposed to have. These days most people seem to take those so called rules and do completely the opposite.

    It is clear that this lack of dicipline and moral and ethical value is slowly but surely turning this planet into hell on earth.

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  • stuartpetergraha
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    stuartpetergraha said

    houghtie, that is very fair comment. With the very low savings rate most borrowings are sourced from Asian or Middle Eastern surpluses / savings anyway. Larger firms are increasingly sourcing the capital markets directly.

    If we were able to reduce house price inflation presumably savings rates would increase to the point where we were not net debtors. These savings would be longer term generaly and a bond / company loan market could be developed. Additionally, there would be more equity investment. At the small business end is less able to access this borrowing costs would rise. Although lower prices for both domestic and commercial properties would also reduce borrowing levels needed by business.

    The question also would be whether real wages would be held in check sufficiently to compensate business for the additonal borrowing costs. After all housing inflation is a major cost push factor in wage inflation.

    Core inflation seems to me to understate domestic inflation by a marked amount. The fact Asian imports have gone down in price to a degree that hides the domestic inflation in what is actually made here stops us dealing with "our" inflation problem. For example let us say 50% of core inflation measures are imports and 50% domestically made, overseas costs fall -2%, British rise 6%, average inflation 4% - rubbish. If we are using interest rates to deal with our own inflation.

    It encourages us to keep inflating more, and the result is constantly falling exports and increasing imports as a percentage of GDP.

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  • houghtie
    Love rating 0
    houghtie said

    I think you're right about the Asian effect. Central bankers either just haven't got it over the last few years (or more likely have chosen to ignore it). The next few years could be very interesting/volatile as there are a number of consequences from this:

    1 The pile of cash thatAsian economies have through exports, there won't be any of this for the year or two.

    2 Will the money they piled up now be used to attempt to stimulate local growth in Asia. I've seen some very nasty bits of analysis on what could be really happening in China. The goverment has control over the figures published. I don't image it will be going on imports, probably infrastructure.

    3 What effect will this have on currencies. E.g. China won't have the money to continue buying dollars and other foreign currency.

    4 What impact could this impact have on prices if there is more currency dislocation (on the wrong side for us)?

    5 How much will the Chinese continue to manipulate their currency through fixed exchange rates?

    6 Will western goverments end up building up so much debt they won't be able to finance themselves at cheap rates any more?

    7 Will they try and deflate their currencies to get out of the mess?

    Also I think there'll be an excellent opportunity for the UK to rebalance the economy over the next few years. Destruction of production will happen everywhere, no-ones immune from the current down turn. If we could, this would mean less reliance on retail and finance. A lower pound could aid exports (although I think people get confused in this area, as the aid you get from a lower currency only applies to the costs of producing finnished goods, not the raw materials that go into making them).

    Unforntunately I think our tax money will end up getting used up on propping up the banks in the wrong way (bite the bullet and get em nationalised, RBOS and Lloyds, so there is a proper look at the mess they have created and that there aren't further scewed incentives for those still in charge of the insolvent institutions). It will also get used up on silly schemes (e.g. bailing out ove borrowed home owners) and other tinkering.

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  • colin106
    Love rating 0
    colin106 said

    slickfingers - you have a mighty chip! Margaret Thatcher did many good things - for one she brought in a free market place in many areas so that "consumers" got the best deal through healthy competition. If people have greedy natures - how can that flaw be laid at the feet of a politician? She couldn't have MADE them greedy could she?

    I for one, felt much safer under her regime than at any time since. In general, she was truthful, and called a spade a spade- unlike virtually ALL politicians of both sides now.

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  • RobbesPierre
    Love rating 0
    RobbesPierre said

    At the risk of pointing out the obvious, the great, exalted, trusted, Financial Services Industry of the UK has gone the way of the textile mills, ship yards, manufacturing and automotive industry.

    Is there anything we are good at in UK plc? Do we really believe our financial services industry will get back to where it was before? I think not.

    There are many angry and hurt people out there. This forum is a tiny cross section. Put the blame where you want, it doesnt matter. It simple says, 'enough is enough', it's time for a drastic change, beginning with the Leadership. (Take that to mean what you will)

    Being angry and indignant does nothing.

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  • purplevamp
    Love rating 1
    purplevamp said

    Quote: It is widely accepted that the credit crunch is partly our own fault – yes, yours and mine – for being greedy, and borrowing and spending too much in the good times.

    I haven't borrowed anything, have no debt, so really not my own fault for being "greedy" and have been saving hard so haven't been "spending too much". And what do I get for being a good girl? pitiful interest rates.

    I blame the banks and the people who DID borrow without a second thought.

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  • filljoans
    Love rating 0
    filljoans said

    We all make choices in life with regards to money. Greed is a catalyst, and unfortunately our downfall.

    We all want more money, more than someone else has got. Thus the responsibilty for borrowing, is down to each and every individual.

    We should not blame someone else for our problems. We should be strong enough to say no, otherwise dont take a risk, and if we do, be prepared for the consequences of our own actions.

    we should not blame anybody for giving us an opportunity!

    Life is a gamble!

    Life is an opportunity!

    life happenz while you are thinking about it!

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  • rockfoolish
    Love rating 0
    rockfoolish said

    Boom & bust seems to be an inevitable consequence of our 'democratic' system where governments need periodically to seek re-election. One of the most effective ways to get re-elected is to keep telling the electorate that "thanks to our skilful management, the economy is wonderful".

    The one thing you never do as a politician is to come clean to the electorate about the fact that the good times may not go on for ever, and that your position of privilege means you've already started to pick up the signs of the next downturn. This dishonest approach simply fuels the boom, and means that the bust is always going to be worse than it should be.

    If you want to put percentages on the 'blame' - how about 90% for Gordon Brown? But at least he can empathise with anyone who's suffering negative equity - he's got a helluva lot more than most!

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  • stuartpetergraha
    Love rating 0
    stuartpetergraha said

    houghtie et al.

    You are dead right on Asia and China, it is exactly where the US and Germany were in the last major down turn (1930's). That is the worlds main exporters, the US GDP dropped 45% and Germany 41%, between 1929 and 1932, while the UK dropped 11%.

    China will try to export out of the problem, but that is not going to work, currency manipulation or not. Chinese shoe production is down 70% according to a report in the Australian Financial Review (FT quality paper). Only 10% of this production would swomp their own market, so production will be hammered. This will be repeated across Asia, where they have geared up to make and export. Public works will reduce the problem, but this will take huge amounts of capital and withdrawing that from the US bond market now would hammer the US $ and cut Asian exports even further.

    China and Asia are in for a rough ride. The US steel protectionism and the EU Diary protectionism will only make the situation worse and lead to retaliation. Exactly as it began in 1930's depression. A kiwi friend e-mailed me to say hi and he has cancelled his Mercedes order, he is a successful diary farmer and when he heard the EU was pushing to subsidise its diary industry at his cost, as a diary farmer in an NZ he acted the way most will.

    There are three ways out of the debt for the West:

    1. Repay it, high taxes for years and low spending.

    2. Declare the debt unrecoverable and write it down, some banks will go under. Financial runs and scares all over the place.

    3. Inflate our way out.

    I am afraid for the future at the moment, across the UK over 60% of GDP is government based, how can this increase much more. Then add in the fact 16% of the UK population is 65 y.o. or over and the figure is set to rise quickly. 20-25% of the population retired, health care costs therefore set to rise steeply. Rising unemployment and under employment, strong public sector unions to push for wage increases. The majority will all be living off about 30% of the working population in the private sector! Global competition making the private sector more and more difficult for most of us, combined with more and more regulations.

    We need a real shift back to basics. As soon as we can cut public employment,cut taxes and cut red tape; get us producing something. We are I think where the Japanese where after world war two, bankrupt and the statement "export or die", is probably appropriate for us now.

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  • posting
    Love rating 0
    posting said

    I agree a bit with all arguments as there was as much irresponsible borrowing as lending. I have a problem with the public sector bailing out the institutions as they were just as foolish as the borrowers who are not being offered the same level of support. It would seem no one wanted to take responsibility for the debts - and i am apalled that bad debt was traded...or even bought!

    Financial services are central to this problem and the sector needs to be made to feel vulnerable and not just bailed out.

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  • afoolaloof
    Love rating 0
    afoolaloof said

    When was the last time you went to a financial institition (aka bank) and they told you that they could not give advice? For me it was this weekend. It's the FSA that should be in the dock. Instead of prohibiting the banks from giving us advice, they should have enforced all lenders to explain in painful detail the implications of every financial product that is sold. The FSA is also responsible for failing to hold bankers to account for their excessive risk taking.

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  • KarlMarx2009
    Love rating 0
    KarlMarx2009 said

    It was all our fault for electing a bunch of spineless politicians who got too cosy with the banks & other financial institutions.

    They needed to be told and regulated before this all happened and it won't be lost on the ordinary peole of the UK that the banks still pay out billions in city bonuses after the taxpayer has bailed out these said institutions!

    There are demonstrations in the UK, Moscow, Vladivostok, Switzerand & Thailand. I suspect that this is just the tip of the iceberg.

    Personally I see this as a pre-revolutionary situation which can only be improved by a socialist revolution!

    But just in case I'm wrong I will plunder as many undervalued shares at this moment in time in order to profit from this world of doom & gloom.

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  • RobbesPierre
    Love rating 0
    RobbesPierre said

    Karl, can we start our own party?

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  • ACTed
    Love rating 4
    ACTed said

    I must have blinked and missed. Did someone have some good times? Passed me by completely. Still, at least I get to pay for it.

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  • carpenterman
    Love rating 0
    carpenterman said

    I was under the inpression that all banks/morgage lenders insured them selves against such things as non payment on loans that they provided. If so why as this not covered there losses after they have sold these house.

    And if this was not the case WHY NOT, as they almost force you to take out payment protection plans when you have loans with them.

    Can anyone tell me if i am correct with what i belived to be true thanks.

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  • houghtie
    Love rating 0
    houghtie said

    stuartpetergraha, yes the reliance on the public sector portion of the economy is rather worrying. Think it'll have to take a hit at some time. How will the falling tax receipts over the next few years support it? Although the gov. could just starting borrowing even more money (oops forgot about that option!) The goveremnt really make me laugh at times. Tehy can be so behind the curve that I think if they slow down any further they may even skip a business cycle and get in line again! The one that really makes me laugh is just as unemployment is set to kick off in a big way, they still looking at how to encourage long term sick etc back to work (whey hey, who kept that on the agenda). In fact I think they are probably just putting their plans into action as I speak. Another interesting one I heard from a colleage today, goverment had worked out that unemployment processing systems were processing less data, so they've just completed thye rollout of downsizing the platforms they had to deal with large numbers of unemployed just before this ramp up starts (10 out of 10, although suppose less of an axe to grind on that one as I'm in the IT industry!)

    On a more serious note, think public spending will need to take a big hit at some point and taxes will have to go up for that falling part of the nation in employment!

    Report on 04 February 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • houghtie
    Love rating 0
    houghtie said

    carpenterman, CDS (credit default swaps) written by AIG etc (which has effectively bankrupted them) are whatyou're think of. Its up to a bank whether it buys CDS or not on loans it issues, just as it is up to you whether you buy PPI that protects you from loss of employment (not the same thing). If you have a high loan to value ratio (e.g. small deposit) the bank may forced to indemnify them against potential loss (this is a policy that you take out and pay for, but benefits the bank if you default). You've got to remember these are businesses we are talking about and PPI is not compulsary (but due to commission bias to agents selling this stuff may feel that way). Just say no to them what ever product you're buying. Dixons make more money from coverplan sometimes than selling the products they cover.

    Report on 04 February 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • benniesmum
    Love rating 0
    benniesmum said

    Bankers, Government and borrowers are all to blame.

    BUT, bankers still get their bonuses, and government still gets to stay in power. And the rest of us get to pick up the costs. Borrowers are the only ones (of these) who have consequences when things go wrong. One rule for the small guys and one different rule for the big guys.

    THATS what's unfair.

    Report on 07 February 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves

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