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The Truth About The Credit Crunch

Harvey Jones
by Lovemoney Staff Harvey Jones on 14 January 2009  |  Comments 83 comments

Is the credit crunch actually going to make the world a better place? Harvey Jones rips to shreds the lies politicians tell us.

There's a school of thought that suggests the credit crunch will actually do us a world of good. Moral good, that is.

After years of undignified splurging on needless fripperies, a little bit of hardship will stiffen the soul, the argument goes.

Our plummeting spending power will transform us from debt and consumption junkies into well-balanced human beings who better appreciate the simple pleasures of spending time with family and friends, or taking a walk in the park on a frosty January morning.

It is an alluring idea, and a nice try at drawing some positives amid all the current negativity. But is it true?

Patched up.

The fashion for frugality suggests we may be reconnecting to older, traditional values.

Sales of sewing machines are up, as people patch up their old clothes rather than bin them and scoot down to Primark, while retailers report a surge in sales of traditional family games such as Scrabble and Monopoly.

Instead of raising us another generation of plastic addicts, parents are teaching their kids how to manage their own money, according to recent research from NatWest.

And rather than making a beeline for billion-pound bonuses in the City, the latest crop of graduates are eyeing up the teaching profession.

Encouragingly, kind-hearted Britons are giving as much to charity as before the crunch, according to from Charities Aid Foundation.

So that's something.

Hooray for the recession!

Plenty of people are lining up to tell us the recession may be a disaster for your pocket, but will work wonders for your soul.

The Archbishop of Canterbury Dr Rowen Williams has called the credit crunch a welcome "reality check" for a society that had become driven by unsustainable greed.

Tory health spokesman Andrew Lansley also claimed recession can be good for us, because we will "smoke less, drink less, eat less... and spend more time with our families".

Alan Milburn, who is leading the Government drive to improve social mobility, has even claimed it is a chance to end unfair privilege.

These cheerleaders for austerity all have one thing in common. They're unlikely to lose their jobs in the next 12 months.

They are also middle-aged, with established careers and secure index-linked pensions to ease their final years. It's always easier to pontificate over somebody else's hardship, rather than your own.

I don't see too many younger people cheering on the recession. It may be driving down property prices, but that's no consolation if you're shouldering a massive student loan and can't find a job because companies have put a freeze on recruitment.

Most have played little or no part in the consumer-fest of the last 11 years, but they will have to pick up the tab.

Nor are the elderly likely to celebrate the crunch, having seen their personal savings and private pensions savaged.

Recessive gene.

I would be delighted if the downturn did persuade us to become better human beings, but I'm not convinced it will.

First, I'm old enough to remember the recessions of the early 80s and 90s, and they certainly didn't leave us happier and healthier, quite the reverse. Losing your job or your house is the wrong kind of reality check. Some communities, particularly in the north of England, never recovered.

I also remember what came after each slump - another bout of easy credit and unrestrained consumption, as people cast off the shackles of austerity and hit the plastic as fast as their credit limits would allow them.

What makes people think it will be any different this time around?

Here we go again.

This new, sober attitude towards money is likely to prove a fad, unless it is backed up with regulatory teeth, to stop lenders from chucking credit at all and sundry, and curb excesses such as 125% mortgages.

Because without serious structural change, we'll be hitting the flaming sambucas and signing up to Ponzi schemes just as soon as credit conditions ease.

Which is pretty much what the Government is encouraging us to do right now. Its stimulus package aimed to solve a crisis caused by excessive debt, by raising that debt to dizzying heights. What the Archbishop of Canterbury calls the addict returning to the drug.

What kind of moral can you draw from that?

And I'm not sure what lesson savers can draw, as they see their diligence rewarded with 0% interest rates, while the Government pesters the banks to cut lending costs to those in debt.

That materialism and consumerism may be crass, vulgar and costly, but at least you get something in return?

So beware anyone who claims the credit crunch is good for you. They probably means it is good for them.

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Comments (83)

  • rowlystravel
    Love rating 27
    rowlystravel said

    cynical but true unfortunately, and the only ones who get off scot free are the banks, the irresponsible borrowers and people who dont work for a living.. Makes you wonder why any of us bother doesn't it!!

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  • JK33
    Love rating 0
    JK33 said

    If the "fat cats" in the banking industry were not paid their astronomical bonuses then maybe we would not be in this credit crunch/recession.

    Also if the government decided to get strong and seriously cut benefits for the spongers of this country - yes spongers you know exactly who you are - then maybe the country would be able to cope. By spongers I mean people who leave school, never ever work and get state handouts and believe the world owes them a living. Well not a living cos they don't work but the world owes them money!

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  • pm67
    Love rating 1
    pm67 said

    Nevertheless people do still need some sort of "reality check" somehow. I'm not saying the credit crunch and the recession ought to be that.

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  • mishimasan
    Love rating 0
    mishimasan said

    My father stands to lose millions from the credit crunch, literally. He was about to retire with a fortune, but this happened and now he's really worried.

    On the other hand, I really do believe that the "credit crunch" is making people look twice at life. Materialism is turning us away from the values that are most important in life. Since the whole affair started, our family has become much stronger, much closer. It's almost a miracle considering what our family situation was like before.

    I know what you mean about people declaring that something is this or that when they aren't directly experiencing it also - but they are very true in a lot of cases.

    I do believe that there are alterior motives behind this recession and that certain things are out of our power - but really - take this concept - all that matters is what happens within YOU. Focus on your inner self and watch your actions manifest into the outside world.

    Life is a subjective experience and for me progressive introspection has opened up doors to peace that I never even knew were possible.

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  • LateDeveloper
    Love rating 22
    LateDeveloper said

    I agree, some people do need a reality check, firstly the 2 posters on the start of this thread need that in abundance.

    One states people that don't work for a living, the other states spongers, these 2 really need a good taste of what it is like to be unemployed rather than just a credit crunch.

    Pathetic how some people make generalisations about certain groups of people as if that is the answer to everything.

    I agree with the Legislation comment at this time, but that just won't happen, particularly where you have companies generating huge amounts of capital for the country, the fat cats will carry on getting fatter, and the rank and file will still find the incentives of large wages makes them work better.

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  • petitemisschief
    Love rating 22
    petitemisschief said

    The problems with this recession as opposed to others is that its being fed by a media frenzy, trying to dictate what should happen. The media isn't populated by very young or old so its trying to look after its own.

    For those of us who've had to live the life of struggle for years its not much different except we learned long ago how not to squander money

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  • ACTed
    Love rating 4
    ACTed said

    I get the feeling that you have never been unemployed, LateDeveloper. I have. And there is a big difference between unemployed and looking for work, and sponging. A world of difference. I agree with JK33 (though I wouldn't have used such emotive language).

    The trouble is, of course, that there is no such thing as a reality check. It's all real. The so-called high-living (which I must have blinked and missed) and the current problems.

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  • meagherp
    Love rating 0
    meagherp said

    well done Harvey Jones for saying that the blameless young are having debt piled on them to pay for this goverment's mismanagement. Any ammount of money will be squandered to get them re-elected.

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  • hamtune
    Love rating 0
    hamtune said

    JK33 is right in his/her first paragraph, not the second, apart from anything else, what is the point in addressing such people in a forum such as this. They are hardly likely to read it!

    The UK is in this mess mainly because of 11 years under the stewardship of so called new labour. It wasn't a bad thing that they stole tory clothes; the terrible thing is that they were, and are, incapable sustaining the economy in the same way.

    I wonder how many of the erstwhile readers of this forum voted for Tony Blair?

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  • mervynvictor
    Love rating 0
    mervynvictor said

    ok so i'm in my 40's .yes when i was younger did save and scrimp but as i grew older loved the more nicer things in life -not saying that i did not try and save along the way -shares ,savings plans etc.

    did the property thing -just like a lot of us -borrowed heavy to do this -took risks -they seem to have paid off .

    so in the end its down to each person to do what he or she wants to -spend or save .

    we tend to go through these recessions every 10-15 years a bit like slimming etc put on the weight and then slim to lose it -we should be used to it by now and be educating our children to this as we (and i say anybody my age ) have been through this 3 times in our lives -perhaps we should look at life as what goes up must come down and go up again and go down again etc

    bit more of a possitive -come on lets look more on the positive side we are alive -unrepressed and not starving -most enjoy life in this country most of the time .

    to all those facing redundancy (i do feel for you ) -my advice don't think of it as all bad (think of something that you like doing ) build a business (hopefully you will have some redundancy -what have u got to lose its only money -u can earn it back again ) -if its succesful (look at ebay -don't even need much to start an online shop -been there did the market stall thing and belive me that was hard -so really most have got it easy if you want it ) you well on your way to a better life -think positive its going to get better and we can all help it do just that -work ethic -small acorns grow big trees.

    stop worrying about how much others get in bonuses-thats their luck (they have worked and studied to get where they are -most that is.make your own luck and money -enjoy life while your at it. reward yourself for doing well -just like companies do for directors who do well for them

    mervyn victor

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  • Battersbyda
    Love rating 0
    Battersbyda said

    I am not hopeful that much will change. The prudent have bailed out the feckless as usual.

    Some good may come out of it if those who provide goods and services that people want are rewarded, while those who syphon off other peoples money for doing very little receive less.

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  • Giles99157
    Love rating 0
    Giles99157 said

    You sound like a grumpy old man who has run out of ideas sir.

    The entrepreneurial spirit that served you so well in the past sounds like it is struggling for new ideas on how to be happy in a less material world.

    If you decide to take a more positive approach and avoid terminal negativity and possibly depression, can I suggest you read the Dalai Lama's, The Art of Happiness or Ingrid Baccis, the Art of Effortless Living,(both cheaper than a round of drinks)

    Billions of people have been living long and very fulfilled lives in cultures of relative poverty for millennia. If you think they have all been hankering after the excesses of the West then you have been taken in by the consumer driven propoganda that our culture has exposed us to for the last 100 years.

    And if you want to know how we became the consumer junkies we are, the BBC ran a great documentary a few years ago called ' The Century of the Self" It made a lot of sense...they should re run it now.

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  • harmonyofthevoid
    Love rating 0
    harmonyofthevoid said

    Politicians? Lying to try and make us stop blaming them for getting us into a mess (again)? Surely not, don't believe it for a moment...

    They're not the ones losing their homes and jobs. They're not the ones who need to stop and think about whether to buy Heinz baked beans or Tesco own-brand in order to save a little cash. They're not the ones trying to explain to a 5yo child why they can't have a birthday party.

    I agree strongly that the credit market got crazy and needs to be stricter than it was, but, please Mr & Ms politician-types, don't try and sell the current climate as A Good Thing. We're not idiots. (And some of us enjoyed spending time with our families before this, thanks.)

    (why is it every time a politician speaks, I start to foam at the mouth? Hmmm.)

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  • fedup1946
    Love rating 0
    fedup1946 said

    I have lived through the recession of the late 80's & 90's, And As far as I can see the the main cause of this recession (Credit Crunch) can be covered in one word....GREED, Whether it be by the Banks, or individuals, or Governments.

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  • hakerite
    Love rating 0
    hakerite said

    I've always respected Harvey Jones - he spots the crap and say's it as it is. However I actually think he's understated the coming effects of this crunch.

    Whilst I believe strongly, that for the most part we are able to adapt to what cards we are dealt in life, the current climate will get a lot worse before it gets better and nobody will be unaffected by it.

    As for values, well I'm of an older generation and often find it very hard to get my head around modern thinking where arrogance and greed rule - ok.

    JC

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  • LateDeveloper
    Love rating 22
    LateDeveloper said

    Acted : I get the feeling that you have never been unemployed, LateDeveloper.

    WRONG I have and hated being labelled as a sponger by morons that had never been unemployed or tried to live on the pittance that this government gives as a living amount, despite me paying huge amounts into the social fund.

    there is a big difference between unemployed and looking for work, and sponging. A world of difference. I agree with JK33 (though I wouldn't have used such emotive language).

    I repeat, Pathetic how some people make generalisations about certain groups of people, as you say, a world of differences within any one group.

    I would also like to point out about these advertisements that are being shown on TV and the governments on statistics as to how many unemployed there are, 3,000 investigators for 2 mill unemployed plus advertising costs, come to how much money ?

    The rot starts at Government level when it comes to wasting money. I a;ways find it amusing when you have a government that will de-nationalise businesses with the excuse that they cannot run businesses, and yet the poor fools of this country vote these same morons into government, to run the biggest business of all the UK economy.

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  • FazzBender
    Love rating 0
    FazzBender said

    As usual in discussions like these, the comments above are a collection of truth & mis-information, but on the whole, any topic which stimulates discussion, is usually a good thing. However, in this particular instance, the sad point is that no matter how much many of us tear-apart or pontificate, the human race never seems to learn from it's past history. Those in power including Government & Finacial institutions (supposedly looking-after our best interests) tend to secure their own futures first before tackling the wider issues of the majority!

    I am as guilty as anyone for being gullible is accepting credit when offered, so I am not attempting to throw stones at others' arguments. I have also been redundant twice in my lifetime (53) and I can say unfortunately, one never gets back to the position in life one realised, before a catashrophe hit. It may only be money and one can sometimes re-earn it again, but it affects some more profoundly than others.

    mishimasan may say his Father 'stands to lose millions from the credit crunch, literally. He was about to retire with a fortune' but I would ask, how much does one need to retire?

    It's proper that we all try to aim for security in life and unfortunately, money has to be in the mix too, but overall I would agree with Harvey Jones that we all need to stand back and take an overview ... before reading some football club has spent £90 million on a transfer!!

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  • purpleoctopus
    Love rating 0
    purpleoctopus said

    Seems to me the same pattern just repeats in history. Politicians act surprised, nobody learns, same mugs pick up the bill.

    I would also like to know why Harvey Jones is presenting us with the Archidiot of Canterclueless as having a more valid set of moral values than the rest of us. I guess Brown and Archie C are similar in that they believe in something in the face of all reason.

    Lets print some more money and a few more bibles, that should solve it. Bank error not in your favour, pay 75 billion pounds, go to jail, do not pass Go.

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  • jameshg
    Love rating 0
    jameshg said

    Oh you're absolutely right. Why bother living within your means and saving your money, when you can take out loads of unaffordable debt, have fun with it, and the Government will pick up the tab?

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  • supersol42
    Love rating 0
    supersol42 said

    In December 1973, the UK went onto a 3 day week.

    That did not happen in the recession of 1980-82 or that of 1990-92.

    In 1974 the UK stochmarket lost two thirds of its value, and the electricity went off in the evening.

    in 1976 inflation hit 26% and the UK had to be baled out by the IMF.

    Things could get worse...

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  • trufflestu
    Love rating 1
    trufflestu said

    LateDeveloper.

    WRONG I have and hated being labelled as a sponger by morons that had never been unemployed or tried to live on the pittance that this government gives as a living amount, despite me paying huge amounts into the social fund.

    there is a big difference between unemployed and looking for work, and sponging. A world of difference.

    You missed one important ingredient it seems.

    You should have got your self some children, and then got down the council office and get yourself a house, and all the other perks, our nation of the great unwashed seemed to think there entitled to.

    Labour won't bring an end to this as its its core vote when it comes to elections. Its going to take a governement to take drastic steps to steer this around and make it less desirable to sit on your bottoms not doing anything rather than going out and getting work. They can't rely on the goodwilled strong people anymore who pride themselves in working regardless of the hardship it puts some in.

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  • pm67
    Love rating 1
    pm67 said

    This is my (personal?) "reality check" if someone is interested: I always live within my means. I was unemployed twice. I didn't go on the dole since I would have felt ashamed and perhaps also because that way I was a lot more motivated to find a job again.

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  • prodigy9
    Love rating 0
    prodigy9 said

    "An end to boom and bust." Gordon Brown must be rueing the day he let that one slip from his lips. He should have known, as most sensible people did (especially with hindsight) that these things are cyclical and the higher the up the deeper the down.

    To address the article, can this credit crunch be good for us? Hell no. What is good about scrimping and saving for no return? What is good about uncertainty in the job and housing market? What is good about the few earning mega bucks? Trickle down? Don't make me laugh!

    And to prove how cyclical this is, how long before the banks and mortgage lenders who are so contrite (yeah right) at the moment are offering 125%, 150%, hell why not 200% mortgages again? (I give it 18 mths into the recovery.) I definitely remember them saying never again after the proprty crash of the early 90s highlighted their shoddy lending practices then.

    "An end to boom and bust". Things that should not have been said #1.

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  • Looking4ajob
    Love rating 0
    Looking4ajob said

    Firstly, jk33 & Rownlystravel should take heed from the saying 'Those that live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones!' as at this time we all live in one big glass house.

    Secondly, I think the media needs to get real and stop talking everything down, I believe they talked the housing market up! remember comments like 'if you don't buy now you'll never get on the housing ladder!'? Think about it this way, if you want to be happy you listen to happy music, if you want to be sad you listen to melancholic music! So come on media do what you do best INFLUENCE THE UK! but please be positive. There are new jobs listed every day! I know I'm looking every day and applying, can't remember hearing that in the last month!

    My employer took heed of the impending media prophersized doom and give notice on 4 employees and made me redundant after 5 years loyal and hard working service. Even though the company makes obscene amounts of money and is very profitable.

    Also the banks need to flex up more! The Government has, and it seems the banks are doing there hardest, to hang onto the difference!

    Maybe if the B of E put base rates back up and Gordon Brown gave it to the tax paying workers in terms of income tax reductions (effectively taking it off the banks and giving to the public)we might get the economy moving up, no matter how slowly.

    I'm now a jobseeking sponger (according to jk33) who has lost his home, car then made redundant on New Years Day! My Christmas was spent on the internet searching for work and uploading CV's to all of the job sites I can find. I spent 40 hours solid sending out speculative CV's and filling out applications last week.(Job Centre said I'd excessivly filled out my work search diary!) I've gone from £8.50 / hr to £1.51/ hr with Job seekers (40hrs/60.50) somewhere I'd rather not be! Would you jk33 and rowlystravel?

    Good luck to fellow fools who have found themselves out of work through no fault of there own and hope those who are working don't join us

    but come on Banks, flex up and give us half a chance and Media you have the power to help us all!

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  • EvilRobotTed
    Love rating 0
    EvilRobotTed said

    Whilst much of this article I agree with, I simply have to take issue with the following:

    " don’t see too many younger people cheering on the recession...Most have played little or no part in the consumer-fest of the last 11 years, but they will have to pick up the tab."

    Absolute RUBBISH! You're out of touch old chap. Have you seen the amounts of money kids today (well, now yesterday I suppose) expect to be lavished upon them by their parents for unnecessary "premium brand" clothing and the like? And how many parents cave in, buy this stuff and simply fuel the playground brand-name arms race?

    I see friends paying more to clothe their kids than I can justify spending on myself, and I don't grow out of my clothes every few months. Sheer lunacy, and aside from the damaging effect on lower-income family's kids (the ones at the bottom of the playground pecking order due to their perfectly acceptable but un-branded clothes) it simply teaches excessive consumerism at an early age.

    So these kids who happily jumped on the consumer bandwagon are now being taught a valuable lesson. Maybe it will make them wiser than their parents - and hopefully infinitely wiser than the idiots who could see no end-of-the-line for the house-price-fuelled gravy train.

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  • bigdogfan
    Love rating 0
    bigdogfan said

    Harvey Jones is right -when this recession ends it will be heralded by a massive rush to spend on plastic unless something is done to control not only the amount of credit in the system but also the basis on which it is lent. We definately need serious structural change but I'm not convinced it will be in a form that is universally good and that there will always be groups who will gain far more than their share at the expense of others.

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  • Yorkstyke
    Love rating 89
    Yorkstyke said

    The credit crunch / recession won't make one iota of difference. Most people will still be as self serving and greedy as they always have been.

    The writer refers to some communities, particularly in the north of England, never recovering.

    A major difference this time will be that London and the South East will take most of the hit and feel the pain of unemployment.

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  • elainesteed
    Love rating 0
    elainesteed said

    No one can answer my question where was the FSA ( Finacial Services ) when the banks were buying toxic debt ?

    Why do we have a FSA when fraud has become worse the more sinse this government employ more people to do more paperwork

    I have lived through 4 recession here and overseas this one is worse than the 70's

    Due to Red tape I have had to make all my employees redundant and am winding up my company

    not due to lack of business but do to increasing red tape that I cannot keep up with

    There is no profit in my business anymore

    Oh1 I forgot thinks government thinks profit is a dirty word

    I will hav get a non job as a civil servant ticking boxes all day they serve no purpose and my pay will come from the remaining tax payers

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  • Albanach41
    Love rating 0
    Albanach41 said

    Oops! Fired another blank.

    On the matter of aportioning blame: is it youth or short memory that accounts for the attributing of blame for all this on Gordon Brown? Surely it all began with Thatcher and Reagan and Greed-is-Good. It was they who introduced the gloves off, anything'll-do-as-long-as-it-makes-money philosophy. Blair was a deciple of Thatcher, and Brown as Chanceller went along with it because it seemed to be working. I can remember when Banks and insurance companies were run on something like ethical principles. Thatcher put paid to all that.

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  • Hardtruth
    Love rating 66
    Hardtruth said

    The whole situation would be a lot better if government limited itself to the things that really add the right value, specifically recapitalisation of the banks (a necessary evil) or putting in place proper financial regulation and reform (which they still haven't).

    But no they have to tinker, mess and interfere with everything using their big levers of central control over people's lives and free markets. This prolongs the pain, confuses and ultimately screws it up more by introducing unnatural elements. They should leave well alone and let it find its natural level quickly, bottom out and then rebuild.

    It is a bit like treatment at the dentist - there is no pleasure in it, you know pain is unavoidable and you just want it over and done with as quickly as possible so you can get beyond it and move on, hopefully better than you were before.

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  • beams123
    Love rating 0
    beams123 said

    ...and I thought Harvey left us a year ago!!

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  • CaptainConfident
    Love rating 0
    CaptainConfident said

    I'm living in Amsterdam at the moment, and I'd have to say that there are fewer signs of recession here than back in Blighty. I think people over here have in general lived within their means, and so don't feel any immediate effect from the banking crisis. Credit cards are available but uncommon, and house buying is done by older people who have saved the money to buy one. Same goes for Belgium, Germany.

    I'm afraid us Brits have to wait for all the debt to be unwound and for the banks to fully admit their losses on their unwise lending. They fed the worst instincts of the public, pumping in cheap money which the public threw at the housing market. This gave the illusion that houses were some kind of super return investment schemes, but it wasn't real money that was chasing the prices higher. How many times did you hear the term "get on the property ladder"? This was a British phenomenon, a British Tulip mania.

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  • HK33UK
    Love rating 0
    HK33UK said

    I well remember 1973 and the 3 day week that followed. I had a small manufacturing business and one of the products sold at the rate of 60 a month. In early 74 we went for 6 weeks without a single order. Needless to say we did not survive, it was a newly established company. I was left with less than £1000. However having seen a bit of hardship during WW2, I was too young to serve but did my bit in Korea, I just got on with it. It has been hard work but by working around 60 hours a week we now have a family business and at the age of 75 I work 6 days a week. I have never had a mortgage more than 3 times joint earnings and do not use credit cards. I do not draw any money from the business at present and the interest on the little bit I have been able to put by is down to around half. So what, tough, just get on with it.

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  • PaulKN
    Love rating 0
    PaulKN said

    John Harvey as usual gets to the heart of it. When "big bang" happened it became clear the banks could come up with any old product and the regulators would never keep up with them all or truly understand what asset backing such products had (many none, just debt). Similarly on the domestic front as soon as the personal relationship between borrower and lender became packaged and sold on - lenders categprise loans as just so many faceless widgets. Calling a loan or overdraft (especially at the moment where overdrafts are being called when the company is not exceeding its present facility) is so much easier to do when you don't have to business with that person or community in the future! I agree with JH those who pontificate are the ones who have jobs paid for by government or similar. The lady who lost her job at Woolworth's last week has 2 kids to feed and rent to pay. Governments and regulators are supposed to protect these individuals, lets hope that's the lesson learnt from this Crunch.

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  • OPeterO
    Love rating 0
    OPeterO said

    There are complex inter-related factors at play here. That said, I can’t agree with the basic thrust of this article that some greater moral good will come from our currently still un-folding issues and that therefore somehow makes the mess we are in more acceptable or worthwhile. It doesn’t. Lots of well meaning fairly ordinary people are being and will continue to be impacted and the affects will be felt for generations.

    It is almost inevitable that at some future time there will be a return to the excesses of recent times that have undoubtedly contributed to the current situation. In fact, I argue that current government policy is already indulging in spending excess to prop up financial institutions that were themselves a significant contributor in creating the conditions that required the government(s) to step in. This is a singularly daft strategy for everyone but the banks. At all times, and definitely in times of uncertainty, banks will do what’s in their best interest. At this time holding onto any capital they have is in the banks best interest. Why it should be a surprise to anyone that if you give a bank a dollop of capital now they choose to hold onto it rather then lend it simply beggers belief in my opinion.

    One of the other significant contributors in creating these problems are government(s) and the regulatory bodies they appoint. It is somewhat ironic that the collapse of Equitable Life is once again in the news today. It is now becoming very clear that successive regulatory maladministration throughout the 1990’s was a significant contributory factor in the collapse of Equitable Life. Yes, the directors of the company are culpable too. However, in plain English, what the collapse of Equitable Life shows is how ineffective the regulatory controls were at the time. In short, the regulator didn’t have a clue what was going on and I suspect that some of Equitable Life’s senior management were at best ignorant of what was being done.

    I sincerely doubt that the regulatory environment has significantly improved since the collapse of Equitable Life, yes its changed I agree. However, I suspect that history will show continued regulatory maladministration post 2000 to have been a significant factor in facilitating the mess that financial institutions have got themselves into. While the collapse of the banking system is clearly an unacceptable outcome I find it hard to accept that there isn’t an unholy alliance between financial institutions and government(s). With the latter trying desperately to ensure no one looks too closely at their appalling regulatory record.

    And so I can’t agree that the current issues are going to be somehow worth the pain. Not because I have no faith that we won’t by and large survive it with our health and that of our loved ones intact but because I have little faith that future government and regulatory controls will limit the excesses that have contributed to the current mess. Any more than I have faith that they will limit the impacts of the current issues on ordinary folks.

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  • UptheKyber
    Love rating 0
    UptheKyber said

    Strange how people in position of priviledge pass judgement on the masses and blame them for being exploited by them in the first place. Having opinions is good if they are backed up with actions. Sadly this is seldom the case.

    Clearly the current Banking and Investment industries are out of control and are allowed to run riot in better times and run and hide in bad times. Government could take this oportunity to reform the current system but I feel it does not want to and has no intention of doing so. The reason they do not do anything to restructure is because it suits them to have an system which is ambiguous. This way you really can fool most of the people nearly all the time. Conspiracy theorist could have a field day on this one!

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  • matchmade
    Love rating 38
    matchmade said

    As usual in Britain there is a huge amount of schadenfreude going on - there's nothing a lot of people like better than a full recession so they can moralise about the world. In normal times they just watch Eastenders, but now the professional miserabalists are saying, ad nauseum, "I told you so" about the housing market, credit cards, houses are to live in and not investments, debt is sinful, young people have it too easy nowadays, bankers don't earn their bonuses, all politicians are liars, Thatcher was evil, Blair was hypocritical, Brown is incompetent, and so on and so on.

    The fact is that recessions are a normal part of the business cycle, and the unusual severity of this one reflects the unusually long period of growth that preceded it. I think we are being much too hard on ourselves: in the benign, low-inflation, reasonable-growth era we had up to 2007, it made sense to take on debt to gear one's capital and enhance one's business and personal investments. Yes, some people took on too much credit card debt for personal consumption and got into trouble, but that's always true, even in a recession, and they will duly be punished for it. However I can remember thinking in 2007 that as regards the mortgage market, there was some froth, but in fact the average loan-to-value ratio was the lowest it has ever been - the vast majority of people were being prudent. The 125% mortgage thing is massively overblown - hardly *anyone* got those mortgages, and as I undersand it, they were people with very good jobs who'd been credit-checked for affordability.

    In my view this recession is almost entirely caused by financial mismanagement by the banks, not because of personal irresponsibility by the average citizen. Yes, some idiots over-extended themselves, but that will always be the case. The problems were caused by hugely irresponsible mortgage lending in the US and the subsequent repackaging of the risky debt with good debt in financial instruments to be sold on around the world, without highly inadequate supervision by the credit agencies and government regulators. In August 2007 the owners of these debts suddenly realised, in a collective heart attack whose trigger no-one may ever understand, that they didn't trust the value of these packages of debt any more, and they all suddenly panicked and stopped lending to each other. Everything we have seen since is an unwinding of that situation: the new markets of debt investment that drove so much of the global economy and its associated risk management have simply broken down. With the banks not lending to each other or us, a recession has inevitably followed around the world. It's a pure liquidity crisis of epic proportions, just like 1929-30. We will probably avoid many of the mistakes made then, but will make some new ones of our own - for example I think the Government charging 12% on its loans to the bank and preventing them from issuing normal dividends, whilst also expecting them to loan at 2007 levels is a massive mistake. Understandably the banks want to pay off this 12% loan as soon as possible, just as most people pay off expensive credit card debt first, and the banks will seek to avoid making loans until that happens. The 2.5% VAT reduction also seems to be an error.

    However I'm not sure there's any solution to the fundamental problem: we live in a global economy, and until people with investment money have confidence in the assets they are buying, and until banks have rebuilt their balance sheets, the rest of us are just going to have to suffer and so our best to survive and be innovative and try to rebuild.

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  • lovehoney588
    Love rating 0
    lovehoney588 said

    Lets all sit up and face the truth, our government is screwed, they're on a sinking ship and dragging us down with them, fobbing us off with they're bull sh*t and making us pay for their mistakes and lack of money management. If I'm honest, I wander if tony blair set gorden brown up for a fall, with their back handed ideals, it wouldnt suprise me in the slightest.

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  • guykguard
    Love rating 0
    guykguard said

    Hear, hear! CaptainConfident. The parallel between the Dutch bulb story in the late 16th and early 17th centuries is dead scary.

    And what too many people seem not yet to realize is that, as in the case of the bulbs, prises of property will not return to their former crazy levels. No way! Also, in future average property prices will increase in lien with increases in average earnings. If not, another credit crunch is only a matter of time.

    May I add an answer to Mr Jackson's question. Yes, the credit crunch stands a good chance of making the world a better place. It will help many people realize just what risky institutions all, yes all, businesses really are. They're a huge risk for shareholders, employees, customers, suppliers, and the community at large. Any of them who thinks they're safe from business failure is just deluding themselves. The "life" of the average company is about 50 years. Size or age afford businesses little protection from failure. It takes years to build successful businesses: nanoseconds to destroy it. The line between success and failure is extremely fine. This lesson from the credit crunch would absolutely make the world of many people a much better place.

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  • JonEBehr
    Love rating 0
    JonEBehr said

    Surely it all began with Thatcher and Reagan and Greed-is-Good.

    That's also my perception. I'm amazed that I don't find the observation being made everywhere and don't recollect seeing it on TMF boards I frequent. I suspect that many who blame only the political party that happens to form the Government of the day (even though they're the spawn of Thatcher in so many ways) may not be old enough to have participated in the Poll Tax Riots.

    To give an idea of my perspective, I'm another who worked the 3-day week and has also been unemployed from time to time - though I haven't received any benefits since UB became JSA.

    Cheers!

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  • Brim81
    Love rating 0
    Brim81 said

    I am fed up of people blaming everyone else for the recession, particularly the banks. YOU are in control of your life and your finances and have the power to seriously reduce if not eliminate the impact of the current economical climate.

    A bank is a commercial operation thats prime objective is to make money - why are people so surprised when that is what happens?

    Yes I do believe that there needs to be better regulation of the banks and the Government should do more to protect people but it is individuals that need to be educated about finance and take responsibility for themselves!

    I'm in debt - who's fault is it? mine, who's responsibility is it to pay it back? mine. Not the banks, not the Government not the salesperson who pursuaded me to by the car.

    I class myself as a young person (20s) and unlike most, I welcome the recession. True, its mostly for selfish reasons: a reduced mortgage which allows me to pay off my debt faster. And with a lower housing market, I know there will be opportunities in the near future but it does focus peoples mind on finance - even if this only lasts until the upturn.

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  • potblack
    Love rating 0
    potblack said

    Are we entering a dark age? Post WW2 recessions were not slumps. 1929 was. But even then paper money held up. Go back to Weimar, rescued by German right wing oportunists. Go back to Charles Dickens and Little Dorrit. Go back to the South Sea Bubble. In fact go back to the 13th century when the Venicians invented the banking system of borrowing and lending and paper money. Before that ... barter. The Banks have enjoyed a 700 year bonanza. This is the sort of time frame that many empires have enjoyed. Are we at the end of paper money? The banks have lost their will. The function of Government is to follow public opinion not lead unless there is a national crisis. But we are told it is a global crisis ... there is no sign of a world government. Enjoy.

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  • Hardtruth
    Love rating 66
    Hardtruth said

    "Brown as Chanceller (sic) went along with it because it seemed to be working"

    Who you kidding Hooukidn? Are you implying that Brown has been an innocent bystander or unwilling accomplice in all of this. For sure he has gun shot residue on his hands and his fingerprints all over it.

    Also you need to go pre-Thatcher to paint the picture fully. The 70s band of Wilson, Heath, Callaghan and Healey royally screwed it up as supersol42 highlighted.

    Whilst people either adored or despised Thatcher there is no doubting she cleared up this bankrupt mess of the 70s and all people's improved markedly whether you like it or not.

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  • Phlopp
    Love rating 0
    Phlopp said

    In 1969 my first house cost £4200 and the £3800 max. mortgage was based on 2.5 x my salary + 1.0 x wife. A couple of years later I was interviewed by the bank manager and had to deposit life policies as collateral for a £500 car loan. No risks there for the bank, and not a reglator in sight! Now we rely on a whole host of different toothless "regulators" to ensure privatised monopolies can fleece us legitimately. We live in a capitalist society with a social conscience. Proper regulation is essential to balance greed & need.

    IMHO HMG has another agenda - to weight the balance towards need. As private pensions are destroyed so state pensions become more important. As a 60 year old I have a bus pass. And a winter fuel allowance. I can pay for these things but Brown can't control us if we insist on maintaining ourselves. And a nice meaty recession will help tip the balance further towards need.

    Conspiracy Theory? Well, we'll see as baby boomers with their (our!) salary based pensions die off in 20 or 30 years time.

    What will be left for the next generation, eh?

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  • OPeterO
    Love rating 0
    OPeterO said

    There are some wonderful isolationist comments being posted today. Yes, we all can and should take responsibility for our own personal circumstances. That said there are external factors beyond our control that will impact us however diligent we have been in our personal finances.

    Had the banking system been allowed to collapse pretty much everyone bar an extremely wealthy minority would have been seriously impacted. Not that the wealthy minority would have escaped unscathed.

    Baling the banks out is/was necessary medicine. The cost of which will impact pretty much all of us, and our children, for years to come. Though I still maintain that expecting banks to part with their new found capital injection in the form of loans to businesses and people is dumb in the extreme.

    What irritates about the banks is that they played a large part in getting economies into this mess, aided and abetted by inadequate or ineffective regulatory controls. This same self interested cabal of incompetents are now presiding over decisions about the homes and livelihood of largely innocent people and their families who maybe now find themselves on the wrong end of a redundancy notice.

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  • lovehoney588
    Love rating 0
    lovehoney588 said

    I wasnt trying to say he was an innocent by stander, just that tony blair began the crippling of the country and then bailed out before he ended up being the one shouldered with the whole mess.

    Ok some people are right it is good for us in our 20's because now we've got an oppertunity to actually afford to get onto the housing ladder. But as a friend duly said, the best bet is to wait until prices steady up a bit.

    I also want to say, those who are saying we shouldnt blame everyone else for the mess we are in, I am only 20 years old, I've struggled from the very beggining to build a life for myself, find work and accomidation.

    I've hardly borrowed any money, steered clear of credit cards because I know I'd be too tempted to blow the lot and kept a respectable 100 pound overdraft on my account, watched my spending and been so carefull with my money.

    But still now, I'm one of the millions of people, who find themseleves struggling to afford even my rent never mind extra little perks that you talk about.

    I'd have loved to able to afford them but it just never seemed to happen!and now I doubt it will.

    You might like to point the finger and tell us that we can blame ourselves for this mess, but if anything we're the ones (the younger ones) who are suffering and paying for our elders mistakes

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  • everybear
    Love rating 0
    everybear said

    It seems the situation before the credit crunch has been forgotten. Many of us on lower incomes had to borrow to buy now because, if we waited, the item could go by anything up to 50%. They rarely went up by the rate of inflation. It must also be remembered that prices are not falling only not rising so fast. It has also been forgotten that the price of essentials is still really high which hits us really hard. Some of us do eventually want to save little bit so that we can enjoy our old age. Fat chance of that in this country.

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  • lovehoney588
    Love rating 0
    lovehoney588 said

    How much I definetly agree everybear!! People who've had the chance to stash cash away are not exactly well off now, but they are a lot more comfortable than the ones who were never given that oppertunity

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  • keith1942
    Love rating 0
    keith1942 said

    when I looked to obtain a motgage 3 1/2 years ago i was amazed at the money that banks and building societies would let me have, repayments much greater than i would want to pay. how many people have fallen into the trap that if finacial institutions are prepared to lend you it must be alright to have that much credit comitting themselves to excess commitments with the banks. it was said in my youth that a bank worked like a organisation that would lend you an umberella in the sunshine and take it back in the rain perhaps if the banks had reverted to this approach when the problems over sub-prime loans and then Northern Rock appeared the down turn might not be as severe as it is now

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  • billyboy121
    Love rating 18
    billyboy121 said

    It’s really interesting how this particular topic has created such emotive postings. I suppose that anyone can emote upon the credit crunch after reading a few headlines and watching the news a bit, whereas a lot of the other topics on this site require a bit knowledge and thought. I didn’t vote Labour in but I can understand why people support the principle of social security – anyone with a glimmer of knowledge about the slums and grinding poverty in this nation’s history would generally agree. I also understand why people get upset about ‘spongers’ taking money from the public purse and never doing anything in return, because it’s inherently unfair to the rest of us who get taxed every time they move. As always, things are not as simple as you’d like. Cut benefits and have people who genuinely struggle to find work suffering along with the spongers. The opposite is also true, offer more benefits and you’ll get people taking advantage. The real savings can be made in government I think, particularly in London, where a whole new layer has been created without offering any tangible benefit. The issue is, how can we get the politicians to reduce their own numbers. These days to even generate a resignation or sacking seems to require grotesque mismanagement or fraud, so getting rid of all these unnecessary people along with the endless consultants that they employ seems very difficult. Any ideas?

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  • msinclair9981
    Love rating 0
    msinclair9981 said

    The Government, the banks and the public are all at fault. We buy into the easy credit and borrow more than we can afford. We are grown adults who know what we can honestly borrow and spend without going into the red (and further into the red).

    If everyone had stopped buying properties at inflated prices, they would have surely had to come down of their own accord.

    I purchased a flat just over 2 years ago. Half my income went on the mortgage. I accepted that. Now Im surely in negative equity but I took the risk of borrowing - on the understanding the value could rise OR fall.

    All I can say is Im dissappointed that the banks do not reduce rates inline with the BoE. Everyone is financially worse off and I susect banks are aiming to maintain similar profit margins to those pre "credit crunch".

    Going off on a tangent - I have been made redundant twice in the last year. I have also managed to get jobs since those redundancies through effort and determination. Not everyone will get jobs immeditately after redundancies but I do believe there are a large number of spongers who do live off us tax players and have no intention of applying for any job. I am a firm believer that if people do not apply for jobs then your benefits should be reduced/withdrawn. Those who are refusing jobs as they do not meet their ambitions / standards have a lot to answer for. They achieve nothing and contribute nothing and expect constant handouts. Granted there are a minority who are genuinely unable to work for various reasons.

    I feel sorry for those willing to work and contribute who have been made redundant - now or at any time. But I feel given the current hard times people may need to lower their expectations in order to continue earning a living.

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  • billyboy121
    Love rating 18
    billyboy121 said

    ps I hold an offset fixed rate mortgage - now that savings rates have dropped, I'm pulling my cash out of deposit and piling it into the mortgage account to offset my interest - anyone else who can do this (or set up a similar arrangement) should look into it as it is more effective and tax efficient also.

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  • Mark0768
    Love rating 0
    Mark0768 said

    Baroness Shriti Vadera was shot down by the Conservatives yesterday for mentioning there were the first green shoots of recovery.

    She was interviewed by ITV and all interviews seem to aspire to be like David Frost, just waiting for that out of context statement, so they can bring down a politician, and show how clever they are, well their not! Their objective is to get the information in context, are report on reality and not the self indulgent, fantasy world that they love to live in.

    The Conservative then piped up, I think it was Vince Cable and accused her of living in a parallel universe, and described her remarks as a work of fiction. What do the Conservatives want, would they like us all to continue to be miserable, do they think that the more miserable, we are the more likely we will vote for them ?

    She was telling the interview what she had seen, which was fact, but chose to use the wrong words to describe it, now be will never know the facts, all we will ever know is she described it in the wrong way – Is this madness ?

    This gagging of information, which is what is happening here is wrong! And it askes the question if the possibility of an upturn is being gagged even if it is insignificant, were the signs of a downturn gagged!

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  • mart123
    Love rating 0
    mart123 said

    The only way for the ideal world to exist is to dispose of everyone in government and all senior management and start over.

    This will never happen, so let's face it, there will always be regular recessions and huge amounts of wealth going to those who don't deserve it spoiling it for the majority of hard-working folks. The corrupt fatcats and politicians will still get their huge payments for their own benefits, so that they can make their world better by any means possible.

    In short, by own self-discipline and a few changes, can people ride out this credit crunch when we get another period of the "good times".

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  • lovehoney588
    Love rating 0
    lovehoney588 said

    Personally I'm of the opinion that the government shove too much money into schemes that just wont work.They tend to focus on different people all the time, the drunks, the smokers, the overweight, now children with dyslexia. Sorry about this tangent but they really have peed me off this time. They waste moneya and recourses!!!!

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  • Phlopp
    Love rating 0
    Phlopp said

    Yes Matchmade 11.59 - I agree:

    "The fact is that recessions are a normal part of the business cycle, and the unusual severity of this one reflects the unusually long period of growth that preceded it. I think we are being much too hard on ourselves:...."

    But we employ HMG to smooth out the effects of the cycle. The depth of this recession is a consequence of the profligacy of the government because they spent when they had plenty to save. There's nothing left in the pot to sustain us through winter until spring arrives.

    Another Winter of Discontent!

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  • Nickipenaluna
    Love rating 1
    Nickipenaluna said

    Here in France personal debt is very difficult to fall into. Credit cards are a rarity, only bank debit cards, which remove money from your account within three days. Cheques MUST be signed with a corresponding balance in the bank, otherwise your account is shut down, and any other accounts you may have in other banks. No matter what their balance may be! Overdrafts are granted when the bank deems that you are suitably reliable!!! Mortgages are granted but only after you have shown that your income can sustain the repayments and you have provided a 20% deposit. Therefore the majority of the french people have no personal debt and do live happily within their means. Nevertheless the country is still sliding (or has slid) into recession. It doesn't, however, seem to be all doom and gloom as the UK appears to be, although many french have become unemployed and output is down. Maybe it is the more laid back approach to life of the french people. They will probably weather the storm by drinking one less Pastis, and growing a few more french beans in the potager!!

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  • spanmik
    Love rating 6
    spanmik said

    Now retired, thankfully, I borrowed a lot of capital many years ago for my business. The bank manager I had was from the old school and needed full accounts and half yearly accounts. He warned me to be careful and reminded that no profit meant no income. He offered much help and the bank installed two managers who were doing a management course to analise the business and offer advice.

    The people who replaced these good managers and led the country into recession would not have passed an interview.

    My manager, years ago? Put out to pasture at 52. What a loss.

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  • OhMichael
    Love rating 0
    OhMichael said

    Lets get it into perspective. If you did not have the money then you should not buy the product. The UK borrrowing against disposable income was 180% - yes 180%. If this wonderful government had left the regulation of banks with the BoE and not the hopeless FSA then this severity of this would be dramatically reduced. As it is we are in for a real deep recession with no green shoots this year, with some luck we may find a seed!! The demise of Leamans broke the system, if they had been saved the current position would have been so bad. Go on check with the good fund managers and they will confirm this. As for individuals borrowing money to get us out of a recession lets look at the position. You go to your bank ask for a loan when you are up top your ears in debt. Would anyone give you a loan to spend - fools paradise.

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  • Mark0768
    Love rating 0
    Mark0768 said

    Nickipenaluna the French seem to have the right idea, this was infact how the UK was during the last recession.

    There are people who have total over streached themselves with credit, but if I hear one more VOX POP interview asking people, spending the extra money they have from decreased VAT, Petrol and interest rate "How are you saving during the credit crunch', I'll make them eat their microphone. The media in the UK loves scaring us, and they have made sure that we feel it's all doom and gloom.

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  • CaptainConfident
    Love rating 0
    CaptainConfident said

    I do think the UK has a particular problem as the fall of house prices is due to the having become like a huge pyramid scheme. The new money suddenly dried up, and it crumbled. If you got in early, you'll be fine but if you got in late, you're stuffed. The banks have to unwind their bad debts from the defaulters, and I don't think that has fully been played out yet.

    I remember an interview with a German about the then prospering British economy. He said something like "But what is the British economy? I think they just buy and sell houses". Unless the banks start shovelling cheap money the way of public again, as guykguard says, prices will never recover to former levels until inflation eventually devalues the currency.

    We need to examine if the German was wrong, and there is something of substance to our economy.

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  • everybear
    Love rating 0
    everybear said

    I was born in 1958.

    I have seen 3 day weeks, did my homework by candlelight in the early 70s, was one of the "one in ten" unemployed in the early 80s, did not get on to the first housing boom in the late 80s, saw the slight recession in the early 90s, then the boom in the new millenium.

    I have been restructured twice over 10 years. I now have to work 5.5 years longer to receive my pension. My personal pension is under threat. All I have now is bills and no fun or holidays. All I want is security so that I can plan my finances and receive some reward for working my behind off for years. I am sick of people making money from property while I struggle. I say change is long overdue.

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  • dogstarJBS
    Love rating 0
    dogstarJBS said

    Oil price vs Petrol Price. Since the peak, Oil price has declined 67%. Petrol Price has declined 18%. Duty and VAT are fixed percentages. Who is pulling the wool over our eyes. The oil companies? The Government? I can't get a straight answer from either, so I blame both. How can we all be so gullible?

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  • jesterswife
    Love rating 0
    jesterswife said

    Is anybody else worried that an incompetent government is trying to run banks now? The banks listened to the government who told them to keep a certain ratio of capital to cover lending etc. Then later in that week, they gave an even higher percentage for banks to hold on to and, guess what, they changed their minds later in the same week and asked for an even higher capital ratio!!!!! So, all the money that they put into the banks has to be held on to by the banks and they can't lend it to businesses or the general public. How stupid can you be? It's like tying up an athlete and then criticising him for not winning the race. The government blames the banks for not lending..... time for a change of Government I say!

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  • alchemistlost
    Love rating 0
    alchemistlost said

    I have to agree with everyone who believes the current recession was caused by greed. I was a scientist working in the UK for nearly 40 years. I saw the country become a place of greed, introversion and corruption. During the 90's and early 2000's it became an unpleasant place tp work. The emphasis turned from producing quality output to ripping off the customer for as much as possible.

    Times will be hard for those that never had a lot but those that have a lot will be OK (where do you think the cash that is no longer in circulation went?). Sadly only the converse will bring real change. I left the UK 18 months ago and hope never to have to return.

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  • lovehoney588
    Love rating 0
    lovehoney588 said

    to be honest i havent a clue what would really solve our problems. On the face of it, our government seems clueless government who has no idea how to control the greedy banks who friviously lend money out.

    Something else I believe doesnt help, and lands people into debt is electric and gas companies charging the worse off people more because they pay on pre pay meters. Personally, I would have thought that they would be able to charge less because the electric is actually paid for, they wont get people not paying their bill.Get my point? Not only that the credit companies who charge astronomical interest on small loans for people with bad credit or low income, that lands them deeper in debt when they end up not being able to re pay the huge amounts of interest. I know they arent the main culprits, but at the end of the day they are some of the names that should be on a to do list to get this country turned around. As was said before the government needs to make cuts, to save more tax payers money and put it where its needed. They need to review where all this cash is going, and where its best spent. Also the banks so desperately need reigning in, and lastly, they should start teaching children in school how to manage their money, how to budget, save and avoid credit if at all possible. It would help back up any further teaching parents wanted to give. It might help us stop this happening again (which i know is unlikely) or soften the blow next time around.

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  • lovehoney588
    Love rating 0
    lovehoney588 said

    Ok, label it on the women, brilliant. Even better yet bring religion into it!Think what you like but not all women spend their money on face lifts and fancy cars. Not all women wait till their forties to have children. Mis informed isnt the word for it. I have nothing against the muslim culture but your women are put down a lot. Have you not considered the single batchelours who dont have a family, and squander their money. There are men out there who are house husbands and the women go to work, im in a relationship like that, I dont see anything wrong with it. If anything imigrants coming into this country, swallowing up our cheap housing, taking our benefits, sending money they earn home to families abroad. And you blame the women.

    Report on 15 January 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • PhilHornby
    Love rating 0
    PhilHornby said

    Brim81 says : "I'm in debt - who's fault is it? mine, who's responsibility is it to pay it back? mine. Not the banks, not the Government not the salesperson who pursuaded me to by the car".

    Such refreshing honesty! Bravo!

    The harsh truth is that the lessons of recent events will not be learned unless we all suffer for quite a bit longer yet. If we all have a lengthy taste of some really painful and prolonged financial stringency we may just remember the lesson for long enough to make sure we rein back a little. We have forgotten the boring , but sensible, facts of financial life - including that we should spend less than we earn and put aside something for that 'rainy day'.

    I have been that boring all my life and am now retired early and solvent, with no debt of any description. That makes me very, very lucky - but in the light of how boring I have been to myself, it is also a product of my commonsense, so I am not feeling unduly guilty.

    Try a bit of 'boring' yourself - and reap the benefits later. I can even have the heating on.....

    Report on 15 January 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • john8pies
    Love rating 0
    john8pies said

    "Most have played little or no part in the consumer-fest of the last 11 years, but they will have to pick up the tab."

    110% correct, that man! OF COURSE, the reckless banks, the feckless individuals and commission-obsessed brokers selling junk sub prime mortgages to those with little or no hope of repaying are the real guilty ones. But the big question is, how can we get them to pay for all this mess?

    (BTW, and I`m not stereotyping, just using empirical evidence obtained with my own eyes, I`ve just been to the local shops and the benefit recipients genuinely DON`T seem to be worrying about the credit crunch, they`re spending money on booze and fags as if there were no tomorrow - 1 of them even said to me in Sainsbury`s, "I might as well spend it as they won`t be able to get it back off me when I`ve drunk myself to death!" (sic.)

    Report on 15 January 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • TheGinger1
    Love rating 0
    TheGinger1 said

    Give it a rest! Mishimisan has got it spot on! I have trawlled through the comments and we are moaning about this in the last 10 years. And such and such went wrong ago 20 years ago and we didn't learn from it. We are human beings. Banks, investors all those people you would like to blame. They are fellow human beings. Granted we have royally messed up. But we are all to blame. You invested, you borrowed, you saved! Yes even the savers are to blame! Base rate is at 5% and you want 10% because you save! Capitalism is what you signed up to and thats what you got (get!). Blame no one but yourself!! Life goes on.

    Report on 15 January 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Lecrunch
    Love rating 0
    Lecrunch said

    A lot of comments have been made about Gordon Brown who lets face it has no qualifications to run a business (he's never had a job) never mind the UK economy. Whatever the govt comes up with it will not be enough to avoid a deep recession followed by hyperinflation.

    The western governments are now set on a path to reinflate the bubble at all costs which will result in the ruination of their currencies.

    For savers it's a double whammy, no interest followed by hyperinflation, the destruction of savings and pensions. Interest rates will go to zero and then we will start printing money just like the fed in the US. It will be the 1970's over again being bailed out by the IMF, bought over by sovereign wealth funds, interest rates in the 20's

    and massive tax hikes to pay down all the money that was wasted in trying to protect firms that should have gone bust.

    You can't have a free market economy and then interfere with it you only make things worse. The quickest way to get this over with is to let the debt unwinding take it's course not throw additional petrol on the fire in a vain attempt to prevent the inevitable.

    Report on 16 January 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • veritas106
    Love rating 0
    veritas106 said

    I have always thought it suited the Chancelor the Hon Mr Brown, he was on duty at the time, he allowed the banks/insitutions to keep funding peoples excessive borrowing.This helped fuel the British economy to a spending boom,this in turn generated millions in tax revenue for them to spend on granious projects.Anybody who believed that property would keep rising was living in a fools paradise, it is a very simple equation if people at the bottom, ie some of the lowest paid in our society can't afford to get on the housing ladder then it will eventually collapse which it has done.

    It was the greed of the banks, the Treasury and property developers that have to take some of the responsiblity, plus the man in the street who believed those who said it will be ok. The same thing will happen with house buyers taking out low cost mortgage deals at the moment @ 3% or 4%, what you need to do is ask what would it cost me if rates return to 7%,8% or more, them work out if you can still afford that loan, that way you may avoid a toxic debt time bomb in the future.

    Report on 16 January 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • BigJon3000
    Love rating 0
    BigJon3000 said

    Wow, so many comments. It seems unemployed spongers and Labour are to blame, by Tory voters with money. More sensible comments by those with memories, or having lived through hard times.

    Lets bring back Thatcher, Pinochet, Franco, and Castro, and see how the average persons wealth increases. (Assuming they suck-up enough to stay in favour.)

    I say we need a globally regulated free market. But getting all countries to put the same restrictions is unlikely, especially as it was the lack of regulations that poached money from abroad in the first place.

    Report on 16 January 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Luniversal
    Love rating 47
    Luniversal said

    The richest man is not he who has most but he who needs least.

    Let that be today's beautiful thought, my children.

    Report on 16 January 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • CaptainConfident
    Love rating 0
    CaptainConfident said

    I love you, Luniversal.

    Report on 16 January 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • laalaa41
    Love rating 3
    laalaa41 said

    I bought a sewing machine. When we were really poor - I was at home feeding the baby and he was at college, I used to make all our clothes. I might enjoy resurrecting this old hobby. I am lucky though, it seems my job is secure and the company I work for have a full order book. I feel desperately sorry for those who through no fault of their own have had to leave their family home.

    Might I suggest that the government could be busy financing a massive, countrywide social house-building programme that would keep the builders busy and give jobs for so many people around these projects????

    Report on 16 January 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • JonEBehr
    Love rating 0
    JonEBehr said

    marko768 said: "The Conservative then piped up, I think it was Vince Cable..."

    Point of information: Cable gained his Twickenham seat from the Conservatives and was Acting Leader of the Liberal Democrats before Nick Clegg was elected leader but he is currently the Liberal Democrats' Shadow Chancellor and Deputy Leader.

    He is not a Conservative. He was a Labour councillor before joining the Social Democrats (as was).

    It's bad enough reading some of the bizarre opinions expressed here without having falsehoods adding to the obvious confusion. The fact that this "mis-speaking" hasn't been challenged or corrected during the period when I couldn't access TMF says it all, really.

    I'll get my coat.

    Report on 17 January 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • petitemisschief
    Love rating 22
    petitemisschief said

    Why don't TMF do an article about what we think about the media............is it because they are part of the media????? Lets have a debate about whether we think the media has too much influence. The government (whatever you might think of them) is elected by us to run the country and we can boot them out every 5 years if we so desire - not so mr murdoch and co! Lets tax them for every news report they broadcast/publish that is supposition and not fact.

    Report on 17 January 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Najman
    Love rating 0
    Najman said

    One thing the 'credit crunch' highlights is how different everyones personal expectations are. Those of us working on minimum wage and just about clearing £10-20 a week more than we would on benefits have always had to be careful with what money we have, while living in our more than likely rented houses and if we are lucky enough to drive, its most likely a second hand job.

    Those in better paid jobs have a different expectancy of what constitutes a 'comfortable ' lifestyle and image - thier own home, new car, latest gadgets and clothing etc etc.

    If both sets of people suddenly lost thier jobs through no fault of thier own who fares the worst?

    Everything is relative to our own expectations, which we have been sold as a collective for decades - to be a success you must have certain possesions and be seen to have them. Maybe now its time to stop trying to keep up with the jones' and for the jones to try keeping up with the rest of us instead!

    Report on 18 January 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • KarlMarx2009
    Love rating 0
    KarlMarx2009 said

    In the 80s & 90s I was a committed Socialist and did not want to profit from Capitalism. I cleared my mortgage by the age of 27 as I did not want to suffer fom it either.

    Having bought 3 properties all on a mortgage during 2007-08. (my previous property was transferred to my ex wife) I also remortgaged a property bought in 1999. I also entered the stock market via shares ISAs and a Share trading account in April 2007 onwards!

    I bought shares in Woolworths for my sins!

    But I only lost money not my job. Although I'm travelling 549 miles tomorrow to take a contract position at far less than my previous contract.

    Karl Marx studied capitalism and came to some conclusions about the unpaid labour of the working classes and the over production of capitalism.

    Of course this might make many of you see red but I believe that Karl was a great analyst and came to his conclusions fairly.

    Well all I can say is although I'm going to work as hard as I can to keep my head above water which I believe I will. If the world economy plunges into a big slump either now or maybe it will be delayed for 5-7 years because of this current orgy of spending and debt if there finally comes a Socialist revolution we will all be better off!

    As people.

    Report on 18 January 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • KarlMarx2009
    Love rating 0
    KarlMarx2009 said

    In the 80s & 90s I was a committed Socialist and did not want to profit from Capitalism. I cleared my mortgage by the age of 27 as I did not want to suffer fom it either.

    Having bought 3 properties all on a mortgage during 2007-08. (my previous property was transferred to my ex wife) I also remortgaged a property bought in 1999. I also entered the stock market via shares ISAs and a Share trading account in April 2007 onwards!

    I bought shares in Woolworths for my sins!

    But I only lost money not my job. Although I'm travelling 549 miles tomorrow to take a contract position at far less than my previous contract.

    Karl Marx studied capitalism and came to some conclusions about the unpaid labour of the working classes and the over production of capitalism.

    Of course this might make many of you see red but I believe that Karl was a great analyst and came to his conclusions fairly.

    Well all I can say is although I'm going to work as hard as I can to keep my head above water which I believe I will. If the world economy plunges into a big slump either now or maybe it will be delayed for 5-7 years because of this current orgy of spending and debt if there finally comes a Socialist revolution we will all be better off!

    As people.

    Report on 18 January 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • PhilHornby
    Love rating 0
    PhilHornby said

    KarlMarx, KarlMarx - so good he posted twice....!

    :-)

    Report on 19 January 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Polospants
    Love rating 0
    Polospants said

    Quite right Petitemisschief. Yes, banks going down the tubes is very serious, but the main driver of the recession in my opinion is the media who are constantly beating us all in to submission with it. If they talk about anything for long enough it becomes true. And their motivation? A headline grabbing story that’s slightly more sensational than the last one.

    The other day my sister said that her job is completely safe and she is not short of money, yet she feels she ought to cut back on spending due to the credit crunch.

    The economy and the markets rely on people’s perception of it to make appropriate financial decisions, and I feel the media have well and truly scuppered any positive thoughts for a long time to come.

    Report on 19 January 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves

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