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Base Rate Cut To All-Time Low Of 1.5%

Cliff D'Arcy
by Lovemoney Staff Cliff D'Arcy on 08 January 2009  |  Comments 73 comments

The Bank of England has cut its base rate by 0.5%, the fourth monthly cut in a row. It now stands at a record low of 1.5%.

At noon today, the Monetary Policy Committee of the Bank of England cut the Bank's base rate by half a percentage point to just 1.5% a year. Thus, for the first time in its 315-year history, the Bank has a base rate below 2%. The Bank of England was founded in 1694, during the reign of William and Mary, so this is truly an historic and unprecedented decision!

A bonanza for borrowers?

The base rate stood at 5% before the rate cut on 9 October, so it's fallen a long way in a short time. More than anything else, this indicates the Bank's desperation to avoid a long and deep recession taking hold in the UK. By cutting its base rate, the Bank hopes to lower borrowing costs for companies and consumers, helping them to weather the coming economic storm.

The Bank's decision will be welcomed by Britain's 11.8 million mortgage borrowers, many of whom will see yet another reduction in their main housing expense. However, roughly half of all borrowers have a fixed-rate mortgage, so these folk will not benefit. Furthermore, several lenders have indicated that they will not pass on this and any more rate cuts to customers on trackers with collars, leaving more borrowers disappointed.

Not all borrowers will be winners

However, most homeowners with tracker mortgages will be cracking open the Champagne, as most will benefit immediately from this latest rate cut. Indeed, those with interest-only mortgages may have seen their monthly mortgage repayments halve in just four months! In some cases, borrowers will be hundreds of pounds a month -- or thousands of pounds a year -- better off. The government hopes that this disposable income will be spent, helping to prop up our ailing economy.

Alas, the cost of unsecured (non-mortgage) borrowing is unlikely to be much affected by this latest cut. Credit cards and store cards will continue to charge double-digit interest rates, plus the cost of overdrafts is likely to remain largely unchanged. Then again, businesses large and small will welcome any reduction in their borrowing cost, no matter how small. However, it remains to be seen whether cash-strapped lenders will pass on the base-rate cut in the form of lower loan and overdraft rates.

A slap in the face for savers

The yearly interest rate paid by some savings accounts has tumbled from over 5% to below 2%, more than halving the return on cash. Thus, the UK's prudent savers will suffer in order to bail out feckless and reckless borrowers. Many savers will see their cash pots shrivel as they are forced to dip into their capital in order to subsidise daily living.

As a group, pensioners will be worse off, as most have savings but few have large debts. Indeed, many retired people rely on their savings interest to top up their pension and pay everyday bills. For some pensioners, their main source of income comes from savings. Thus, the over-sixties will be worst hit by the collapse in the base rate. Hence, it's vital that pensioners (and all savers) shop around to find a first-class rate of interest on their nest egg, otherwise their cash will start to crumble.

To me, this demonstrates everything that has gone wrong during the huge borrowing and housing binge which began when Gordon Brown became Chancellor in 1997. Since then, personal debt has tripled and the savings ratio has fallen to a near fifty-year low. Crikey!

A mixed blessing

As a saver with neither interest-bearing debts nor mortgage, these rate cuts hit me in the wallet. However, I can understand the thinking behind them, as UK borrowing far outweighs our savings. We consumers owe close to £1,500 billion in mortgages and other debts. However, our savings are about £400 billion less, at £1,100 billion.

Thus, in theory at least, cutting interest rates should make us better off as a whole. However, banks and building societies need to rebuild their battered balance sheets, so they are passing on rate cuts in full to savers, while only dropping rates modestly for borrowers. This increases their `net interest margin', enabling them to boost their profits and strengthen their capital position.

Lastly, if this news leaves you feeling optimistic, then think again. The UK is in the grip of the worst financial crisis since World War Two -- and it's not over yet. In the past four months, our currency has collapsed against the euro and the US dollar, making exports cheaper but imports more expensive. As interest rates head towards zero, this could cause sterling to fall further.

Although the government's biggest worry at present is deflation -- falling prices -- rising import costs would lead to a rise in inflation. This would worsen if the Treasury decided to implement `quantitative easing' -- printing more money in order to pump up spending. In the next five years, our national debt could triple, forcing future governments to raise taxes. Thus, in the near future, the UK could once again resemble the `sick man of Europe' in the eyes of the rest of the world...

More: Search out first-rate savings accounts | Nationwide Shows Its Ugly Side | A Horrible Year For House Prices

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Comments (73)

  • DonaldTramp
    Love rating 0
    DonaldTramp said

    Yup just what we need. Lets pour petrol on the fire that is the UK's personal debt situation. Anything to keep Browns debt bubble going.

    Is there an election coming up?

    With the desperate state that we are sinking into Brown should do the honourable thing and resign. He has controlled the economy for more than 10 years and the public should be given the choice of someone else to take the country forward.

    I have a sinking feeling that this is not going to happen. I predict even more wasteful and fruitless spending in the public sector(for which we will have to pay) which will cause the UK to be even less competitive long term.

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  • Chorlton1
    Love rating 61
    Chorlton1 said

    Well I have already had a letter from Leek United Building Society stating that the collar on their tracker mortgage is set at 2% so I won't see any further falls. I haven't checked the paperwork yet to see if the collar was in the KFI issued with their tracker mortgage. I'm sure quite a few others will have hit the collar now so there won't be many gaining from this latest rate cut.

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  • Chorlton1
    Love rating 61
    Chorlton1 said

    DonaldTramp perhaps if they had a cull in the public sector perhaps the money could be put to better use instead of paying for 'bean counters'. The drains don't get cleaned causing floods, very few roads get gritted, we get fined for leaving our bins open. The quality of life in this country has gone downhill even though the amount we pay out in taxes is higher than ever.

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  • Cliff D'Arcy
    Love rating 26
    Cliff D'Arcy said

    One point I would make is that there are 11.4m pensioners in the UK, most of whom will be a lot worst off since the base rate was cut from 5% to today's 1.5%.

    Since pensioners account for almost one in four adults and are more likely to vote than younger adults, I predict a 'pensioner voting backlash' in the 2010 election.

    Goodbye, Gordon Brown and Alistair Darling. You are the weakest links! ;0)

    Cliff

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  • DonaldTramp
    Love rating 0
    DonaldTramp said

    Chorlton,

    I agree with you wholeheartedly. A cull in the public sector is EXACTLY what is required.

    Brown spending Billions expanding it (can you believe that?) to get us out of this is absolutely crazy.

    All this constant borrowing and borrowing, then some more borrowing and living on the never-never is getting the UK absolutely nowhere.

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  • VioletsAreBlue
    Love rating 0
    VioletsAreBlue said

    The base rate is down to 1.5% - so what! does it equate recovery, wealth, more jobs, motivating people to save, will it encourage people to apply for mortgages, will it increase spending - I dont think so. Hold on to your purse strings the worst is not over yet.

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  • Bean0
    Love rating 0
    Bean0 said

    Like Chorlton I also have a mortgage with the Leek and the 2% collar was clearly stated in the illustrations they supplied. So I'm now in the happy position of being £450 a month better off than I was in September, all of which is helping me to pay the mortgage off early - no point saving it at todays interest rates!!!

    But I can't see that any further cuts will help consumers - as savings rates are so low and few of those with mortgages will see further benefit due to collars and refusal to lower SVRs. What's more unless the banks pass the savings on industry's not going to be helped either.

    How about a 2.5% reduction in VAT? Now that really would kick start the economy :D

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  • jerryrc
    Love rating 0
    jerryrc said

    A base rate cut is welcome for some people but overall, it is not generating extra cash to be spent in the ecomony i.e the supply of cash stays the same, especially as banks are simultaneously being asked to hold more capital against future lending (i.e they are at the same time being forced to lend less money !).

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  • supasap
    Love rating 19
    supasap said

    "sick man of Europe"..... public sector borrowing way out of control...... if you look at the thread of the article of lessons in debt management of last week there are some links which illustrate clearly that the current level of national debt as a proportion of GDP is quite normal, we have had much worse before and survived and other countries have it at much higher rates than ours..... look at the facts please. If as some of the posts above suggest, we "culled" the public sector then we would be just reducing the level of effective demand for goods and services in the economy thus adding to the vicious circle... we need public sector first time buyers to get the housing market going (not increasing necessarily but activity again) .... after all with the paranoia of the banks at the moment then they are more likely to lend large sums of money to people who are in a job for a very long time... to state that the public sector is a drain on resources misses the point of Keynsian economics whereby paying someone to do something is always better than paying them less to do nothing in terms of the level of demand in the economy goes

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  • DonaldTramp
    Love rating 0
    DonaldTramp said

    Supasap,

    I'm sick of hearing this excuse of "keynsian economics" being bandied about as an excuse to sell all of our futures.

    The public sector is a massive drain on our competitiveness. The never ending layers of bureaucracy is strangling our country with jobs for life, strikes and our government want to expand it? Are they having a laugh? Oh and don't even get me started on the Pension liabilities!

    The national debt you mention takes no notice of Britains private debt. Brown has been relying on the man in the street to borrow and keep Britain ticking over. Now he is going even further by getting everyone collectively in massive debt.

    When you add the man on the streets debts to our GDP you get a totally different figure, we are by far the WORST out of our comparable neighbours.

    Have a read at this spectator article, have a look at the graphs, then get back to me....

    http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/3078296/the-true-extent-of-britains-debt.thtml

    Lets just hope we are saved from the embarrassment of the IMF bailing us out.

    Britain is entering the downturn in a worse condition than most of its competitors because, for 11 years, the Government has been squeezing the productive part of the economy in order to expand the unproductive part. That is no longer an option: the money has run out. The public sector must feel the consequences of the crunch.

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  • Clitheroekid
    Love rating 1
    Clitheroekid said

    So more rewards for the spendthrift and reckless and further punishment for the sensible and prudent.

    They should make a documentary about the Brown government entitled `Carry on binging'.

    They're a bloody disgrace.

    And if I hear another debt junkie whingeing about the collar having stopped their damn mortgage rate having sunk to zero I shall not be responsible for my actions!

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  • castath
    Love rating 0
    castath said

    Cliff, don't forget that with mortgage rates being cut this has relatively increased the value of our homes.

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  • VioletsAreBlue
    Love rating 0
    VioletsAreBlue said

    Gordon Brown must face reality - his government and policies are not working taking this country deeper into recession. During the 2nd world war Sir Wiston Churchill was the right Leader, a worthy Prime Minister that the whole country respected and supported, those years were really tough, painful hardship, a true recession. Moving on some 70 years later into the 21st century [minus the war] the economy is far worse than the 1940's due to the greed of financial institutions, careless investments, more borrowing and the incompetence of high profile individuals taking on the role as Prime Minister.

    Time to go to the polls - a government shakeup is overdue.

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  • spica1
    Love rating 0
    spica1 said

    The banks are controlling again but they are missing out on one important point, Savers supply them the money they need to trade and if we could galvanise their support like the French seem to be able to do and threaten to withdraw our cash unless the rate went up, I wonder what would happen

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  • GN100
    Love rating 0
    GN100 said

    Unfortunately it appears that Gordon Brown is not thinking about an election in 2009, see the recent Andrew Marr interview.So we are stuck with his 'more debt' policies for the near future. Meanwhile the country plunges further in to the debt mire. Having fought for so long to get the job he is not going to give it up that easily.

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  • saverman99
    Love rating 0
    saverman99 said

    This government has to go , before they put us any further in the mire.

    Rescue our economy how did it get in this shape in the first place Gordon ,

    well let me tell you reckless lending and over borrowing and what are you proposing to get us out of it. Oh Yes i remember more borrowing please go i never voted for you and i don't want your miserable face on my tv either!!!

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  • Accountantsmum
    Love rating 0
    Accountantsmum said

    Violets, remember that Winston Churchill was respected because his leadership helped us win the war. It wasn't for his economic prowess! As soon as the war was over, the electorate threw him out and elected the Attlee labour government to preside over the austerity years. I wish I believed David Cameron would do any better, but so far I see little evidence. What was the Tory plan, again, for getting us out of recession? Er....

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  • Nickipenaluna
    Love rating 1
    Nickipenaluna said

    An interesting thought Spica1 and one that I have seriously thought about for lots of people. As a pensioner living in France I inherited some money from my father which I left in my UK bank. I have seen the interest fall from a tidy amount which topped up my pension next to nothing. My pension value has dropped by over 940€ a month because of the falling value of the pound. No benefits for me though - even if I was still living in the UK. I am unable to shop around for a new account as I dont have a UK address, but as soon as I get the opportunity I will move the money to somewhere else. As for Gordon Brown - he wasn't the electorates choice, as far as I my opinion goes he forced his way into No 10 - perhaps it is time we forced him out!!

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  • ArtemisFowl
    Love rating 0
    ArtemisFowl said

    I agree with the majority view in this thread (which is opposite to that of just about every Government) that "cause and effect" should take its course and the economy shouldn't be artificially re-inflated. Of course this policy of re-inflation has been going on for sometime and according to common sense / Austrian model the bad debt/unproductive capital must be liquidated/redeployed at some point (although in Japan it still hasn't been = 20yr depression).

    One problem this time around is that there is just so much debt, if the Govt had allowed/allows natural processes to happen, the very fabric of the financial system would probably collapse; maybe that is what is required - but few are likely to vote for anyone with the policy "you must face the consequences of your actions".

    So maybe a precondition to sorting this mess out is to disenfranchise the ignorant and the selfish (get rid of democracy) and prepare the way for "The Return of the King" - i.e. someone wise and altruistic - maybe Dumbledore? - or Christ!(strangely enough that just about what many religious folk think is about to happen).

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  • onemarcus
    Love rating 0
    onemarcus said

    Accountantams on the plan for getting us out of recession there isn't one Governments can't alone, despite what Brown says get us out of recession.

    Governments can instead help to make Britaian more comepetitive by not drastically pouring fuel on the fire by massively increasing the National debt, which will lead to higher debt that we then all have to pay for with higher taxes.

    But whoever is in power they will not stop the recession it is here and it will be tough and nasty. What we want is a government that doesn't damage the economy with their ridicolous plans for Socialist intervention in the economy ala Brown and Obama and what we didn't want is the fueling of more debt into the economy and an attack on savers by stupid measures liike yesterdays base rut cut.

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  • IMHO55
    Love rating 0
    IMHO55 said

    A few (possibly naïve) thoughts:-

    Gordon should go – agreed, but who is the alternative?

    Less interest earned on Savings = less tax/income available for the Revenue.

    If it isn’t worth saving, then spend BUT no sensible person currently working will do that if they are concerned about redundancy.

    As for Banks lending to each other – towards the end of last year, several were not doing this to preserve their year end deposits. Now this has passed, could things easy up?

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  • onemarcus
    Love rating 0
    onemarcus said

    The alternative is a party that doesn't think you should massively increase the National debt that leads to higher taxes in the future thus spoiling our economy's competiviness. Their party name begins in C.

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  • carloswhizz
    Love rating 0
    carloswhizz said

    Why are you lot moaning about Brown not being elected by us? Neither was Major and he d*cked over the UK economy as much as Brown with high interest rates, the ERM, Norman Clueless Lamont vs George Soros, etc. This is nothing new. Obama has just unveiled a massive programme of public works and huge government spending to almost universal UK media acclaim but Brown is slated for it. Is that because we the UK public will actually have to pay for Brown's ideas and not Obama's?!

    I am no fan of Labour but what are the Tory and indeed Lib Dem plans to get us out of the mire? Tax cuts alone, however welcome and necessary, will not do it. Where are all the highly paid economists and management consultants that were visible in the 90s and 00s now that the REALLY hard work has to be done?!

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  • shepherd2008
    Love rating 0
    shepherd2008 said

    As usual we are given a poultry carrot that doesnt work and is about 2 years too late anyway!

    It may help the few for a little while but in the scheme of things is nothing more than food for Rudolph.

    File it away with the useless 2.5% VAT cut.

    The threat of voting them out is a time honoured speach given during every single run up and always falls on deaf ears.

    Nobody in government ever really looks any better and they all have us by the fairy bits. It is why i should imagine the black market if flurrishing.

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  • bigdogfan
    Love rating 0
    bigdogfan said

    DonaldTramp. You say: "The public sector is a massive drain on our competitiveness. The never ending layers of bureaucracy is strangling our country with jobs for life, strikes and our government want to expand it? Are they having a laugh?"

    The never ending layers of bureaucracy as you put it started during the Thatcher years. Layers of bureaucracy to assess performance ... I worked at that time in education and the other half was a manager in the NHS. Both of us saw and experienced at first hand the massive increase in bureaucracy and the shift away from time spent on actually doing the job to spending hours on frequently pointless paper exercises. Then all the bureaucratic layers established to monitor those endless bits of paper. I'm very cynical now about all of this. Campaigned against SAT testing of kids at the time and now years later and after massive costs (economic and social) within education lots of tests are being abandoned for exactly the reasons I and others gave at the time! As for your other comments re strikes etc - are you in some kind of time warp? There's nothing wrong with jobs for life if people do a good job and contrary to opinion people do get chucked out if they are useless although as in all walks of life some remarkably incompetent people do seem to manage to hang on in there! Anyone who has had poor service in the private sector or has seen a poor manager who got their post through connections will know what I'm referring to.Increasing public expenditure doesnt automatically equate to increased bureaucracy. I agree with Supasap "paying someone to do something is always better than paying them less to do nothing in terms of the level of demand in the economy goes". A lot of people are losing their jobs at the moment. Let's give them something useful to do which will provide them with the income they need in order to live, retain their self respect and actually benefit society as well as maintaining valuable demand. These are people who are fresh from the work force, They have skills and a work ethic. Unemployment demoralises and deskills to no one's benefit. My other half and I dont work in the public sector any more but between us we put in over 50 years on the front line with all the attendant problems. I spent years teaching the sorts of kids most people would run a mile from.

    These kids are the self same ones who cause havoc on our streets and rack up up our taxes as solutions are sought. To cut back expenditure in these sectors just because it's so called public expenditure is gross negligence. A bit like not fixing a leaking roof until the ceiling falls in!!

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  • debtwagon
    Love rating 6
    debtwagon said

    I agree with GN100, I can't see Gordon Brown calling an election in the present circumstances. Contrary to most of the opinion on this thread, he seems to be generally more trusted than the alternatives, with his poll rating improving in recent months. And who wants to take over at the moment? The Conservatives are being pretty quiet and there is no internal Labour dissent. The only way Brown can be properly removed before the end of the parliamentary term is via a Commons vote of no confidence and that looks unlikely. BTW, to those saying they never voted for him - no, you didn't - unless you lived in his constituency - you voted for your own MP. That's the way we do it here.

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  • sharewatcher
    Love rating 0
    sharewatcher said

    Of course the government can accuse the Conservatives of 'doing nothing' what can they 'do'? They are not in government! However their proposals of removing the taxing of interest on savings and increasing the pensioner tax allowance are good proposals, for more than just proposals they cannot be, they are not in government. Previous other proposals have also been sensible.

    The government on the oher hand have removed 2.5% of VAT which has had no effect whatsoever. In fact small businesses who are able to claim back the VAT on fuel are not able to claim back the increase in duty which has replaced the VAT.

    This cut in the interest rate will harm far more than it will help. The number on mortgages that it will help is minimal. Savers (the prudent - if you remember) will suffer. Banks are still being tight with their money and are not lending more, or on better terms, just because the Bank of England has reduced rates to 1.5%.

    Like most governments that have been in power for a long time this government is in cloud cuckoo land and needs to go. How do go about kicking them out? Oh dear, we have to wait until they tell us when the election is!

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  • tomatosoup
    Love rating 0
    tomatosoup said

    If I take advantage of lower rates to increase my mortgage repayments, does it mean that the bank then has more money to lend out? Or am I harming them (poor souls!) by not paying them as much interest over the long term?

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  • bigdogfan
    Love rating 0
    bigdogfan said

    I think if we had an election now Labour would win as he's seen by the general public as the best to deal with the current crisis. Most people recognise that we are in the midst of a global situation and so dont lay the blame at the feet of UK politicians. People on this site can rant all they like about this but this is the reality. Maybe if Government plans dont work and the press keep up their campaign the weight of public opinion will shift. At the end of the day it will be those who can sell the best deal to most people who will win through

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  • advent7
    Love rating 0
    advent7 said

    DonaldTramp, get a life mate ! There is only reason for the mess we are in and it is the greed of the banking and investment sectors as a whole.

    GREED GREED GREED !!! That is what the capitalist system is all about.. simple really ... "rob from the poor and give to the rich" ... Nice balance sheets for banks which are not worth the paper they're printed on !! And wasn't it Thatcher who set this whole house of cards in motion in 1979?

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  • bigdogfan
    Love rating 0
    bigdogfan said

    Well advent7 it was certainly Mrs T who sold the idea of property owning democracy - first by selling off council housing and then by convincing the masses that they could have what the better off had - which of course they could if they borrowed and borrowed for it ......

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  • DrewJD
    Love rating 0
    DrewJD said

    What I see are banks starting to make super profits out of us again. Saver rates are rock bottom, LIBOR has eased, most debt (more than half at least) is being charged way above base. And we know where the difference is going! The only good thing is that we should see a nice return on the national investment in rescuing the banks last year. I just hope they don’t blow it all on bonuses or worse!

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  • gordonbanks42
    Love rating 11
    gordonbanks42 said

    I have to agree with DebtWagon's point of information. In this country, no-one elects the head of Government as such. The PM is elected as an MP (by convention, but in theory the PM could even be a peer) and that's it.

    The choice of PM is nominally down to HM The Queen but in fact is determined by our parliamentary party system.

    Anyone who thinks the PM is elected to that office needs to wise up. And anyone who wants to live in a country where the head of Govt is directly elected should move to the USA, France, etc. (and stay there long enough to become a voter). Even in those countries you get vice-Presidents taking Presidential office without having been elected as President and governing for significant periods of time - LBJ, for instance.

    Did anyone voting for (or even against) "Tony Blair as PM" last time round not know that Gordon Brown was the de-facto Deputy PM?

    Personally I believe that HM The Queen could do us all a favour by being a bit more coy about recognising the outcomes of party machinations and bringing about a return to a more fluid parliamentary system where MPs have more power and party whips and patronage have less. We have been there in the past, and Britain was arguably greater then than it is now.

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  • onemarcus
    Love rating 0
    onemarcus said

    As I come from a family who was probably one of the so called masses that sold their council house and moved to a nicer area I can only applaud Mrs T. And no we never funded it with massive debt.

    We are in a recession because the Banks who were unregulated screwed up. This Labour Government set in motion the suppossed regulatory power the FSA and gave the Bank of England its suppossed independence, (do we really believe they are never leaned on by the Government?) Yes the roots of the recession may be not in this country, but the extent of its effect on this country is this governments fault. And what is their solution a useless 2.5 Vat decrease that did nothing but add 12.5 Billion more to National debt and Socilaist intervention into the economy on the scale of the 1960 and 1970's. This will dragg us down further and mean that we are again the sick man of Europe and undo all of the good done by Mrs T and her Conservative government.

    It is not inevetitable that Labour will be re-elected, the latest opinion poll are 41% for the Conservatives and 34% for Labour support for Brown and Darling's policies amongst business leaders went from 42% to 28% in another poll.

    As we go deeper into this recession what we don't need is Government waving a magic wand, but a Government that ensures the economy is the most competively placed to be able to take advantage of the upturn when it does come.

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  • gordonbanks42
    Love rating 11
    gordonbanks42 said

    Making debt more affordable in the short run is a good thing if it helps to avoid crashing the economy while we all get our houses in order (with an appropriate nod to those who have been good boys and girls all along). But it will turn out to have been a bad thing if it merely allows those who are over-borrowed to remain over-borrowed or borrow even more.

    So we are missing a piece of policy. Where is the carrot (or the stick) to get people to cut their borrowing back to affordable levels?

    Until that gets sorted out, potential lenders will be right to see potential borrowers principally as potential defaulters and will focus on repairing their balance sheets instead (which is a high-priority job anyway). And until the borrowing public as a whole looks and feels creditworthy, spending will be curtailed, demand goes down, job losses mount etc. You know how that one goes and we don't want to go there.

    Stimulating demand on is own is a fools errand (small "f") without something to improve personal creditworthiness as well.

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  • bigdogfan
    Love rating 0
    bigdogfan said

    I was in a council house when the right to buy legislation came into play. We were offered our house - in a nice

    / non coucil estate area at a 40% market discount with very favourable borrowing terms. Some one else had to pay for our massive subsidy ie tax payer. We decined the offer and moved out. We had needed that house for our family at a time when we were struggling. We wanted it to go to someone else who needed it. It certainly wasnt a sound financial decision for us to turn down the offer but from our point of view it was the correct decision ethically. We made our own way without gaining at the expense of someone in need. Thanks to the current crisis we're massively better off due to our mortgage going down. I'm not rubbing my hands in glee as that would be in bad taste!?

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  • bigdogfan
    Love rating 0
    bigdogfan said

    gordonbanks42 - poor old HM could be as coy as she liked but the bottom line is that she would be kicked into touch due to legislation which can bypass her. Anyone who has ever been involved in politics will tell you it's always been about machinations and factions. Always has been - always will be. Part of the human condition I guess. Our system is far from perfect - in lots of ways downright undemocratic - and definately needs updating / reforming but relying on an unelected power is definately not the way to go.

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  • bigdogfan
    Love rating 0
    bigdogfan said

    gordonbanks42 you say: "Stimulating demand on is own is a fools errand (small "f") without something to improve personal creditworthiness as well." Totally agree - well said!!

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  • onemarcus
    Love rating 0
    onemarcus said

    So what you saying Bigdogfan my family should have stayed in the hole of a council estste that the state had built for us in inner city London on the grounds that it would have been ethicall. The Socilaist way you are working class stay there in that hell hole don't try and better yourself we will look after you. You can keep your ethics bigdogfan. Good to hear you now have a mortgage and were able to get out, without the right to buy and the massive discount we would have had to stay in that hell hole.

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  • onemarcus
    Love rating 0
    onemarcus said

    So what you saying Bigdogfan my family should have stayed in the hole of a council estste that the state had built for us in inner city London on the grounds that it would have been ethicall. The Socilaist way you are working class stay there in that hell hole don't try and better yourself we will look after you. You can keep your ethics bigdogfan. Good to hear you now have a mortgage and were able to get out, without the right to buy and the massive discount we would have had to stay in that hell hole.

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  • john8pies
    Love rating 0
    john8pies said

    "Thus, the UK’s prudent savers will suffer in order to bail out feckless and reckless borrowers."

    This one sentence in the above article says it ALL really, all those who failed to take risks with their borrowing are apparently well and truly penalised to pay for those who were reckless!

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  • debtwagon
    Love rating 6
    debtwagon said

    onemarcus: Do you also applaud Mrs. T for the fact that all our energy and water companies are now foreign-owned?

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  • DonaldTramp
    Love rating 0
    DonaldTramp said

    bigdogfan

    "I think if we had an election now Labour would win as he's seen by the general public as the best to deal with the current crisis."

    "we are in the midst of a global situation"

    HA HA HA!

    Do you read the papers and the polls? Which way do you think the opinion polls are going to go when 100s of thousands join the dole?

    I think we have found the person who falls for Gordons diversionary tactics that it is "a global situation". I never thought I'd actually hear for someone was suckered but there you go.

    advent7

    "There is only reason for the mess we are in and it is the greed of the banking and investment sectors as a whole.

    GREED GREED GREED !!!"

    I totally agree that Greed has played a huge part in it, but who was the chancellor in charge throughout the last 10 years?

    Who was suckered into believing that we had a new paradigm and that we didn't need to produce anything as a country anymore? Who fell for the idea of the "new financial hub" that London was to become?

    Nope he's blown it and it will be proved at the next election. Go on Gordon call it. The sooner the better.

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  • bigdogfan
    Love rating 0
    bigdogfan said

    onemarcus - I wasnt knocking your family. At the time I supported policies that would have enabled people like your family the right to buy -but in the private section - not in social housing - which was created for people in need. If your family had been offered a good deal to move out and buy a decent house somewhere else would they have turned it down? I think not. That would have been a more ethical way of giving people more choice. Unfortunately Thatcher was obsessed with selling off virtually everything that was collectively owned. Yes some did need to be sold but others were valuable public assets. We needed balance not a dogmatic pursuit of an ideology irrespective of the consequences for humanity.

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  • bigdogfan
    Love rating 0
    bigdogfan said

    DonaldTramp : P

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  • bigdogfan
    Love rating 0
    bigdogfan said

    DonaldTramp : P

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  • bigdogfan
    Love rating 0
    bigdogfan said

    DonaldTramp : P

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  • bigdogfan
    Love rating 0
    bigdogfan said

    DonaldTramp : P

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  • bigdogfan
    Love rating 0
    bigdogfan said

    DonaldTramp : P

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  • jameshg
    Love rating 0
    jameshg said

    Dear god, this country is run by a bunch of ****ing idiots.

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  • mer2k
    Love rating 0
    mer2k said

    Lower interest rates can be better for savers: Inflation tracks interest rates (which moves first is debatable, but they do follow each other).

    You are better off as a saver with 2% interest and 2% inflation than you are with 7% interest and 10% inflation.

    Some other things to blame Gordon for:

    Banks failing to loan is due to government policy requiring them to have better capitalisation (to reduce risk of this happening again) and to pay back gov loans with 12% interest. Would you loan money at 4% if you were paying 12% on loans? The gov should delay the recapitalisation requirement while still providing bank security to get lending moving.

    Devaluing money - means testing results in you being better off not having money or earning less. This has contributed to the spend not save culture, is hugely inefficient and invasive. It should be scrapped.

    Paying someone to do something better than not paying to do nothing - this only works if its a small percentage and temporary, unfortunately this government has almost doubled the public sector for no benefit I see, and regularly see adverts for government initiative pointless jobs.

    The reason he went round the world persuading everyone else to do the same 'rescue package' was to share the responsibility and add weight to the idea, and to prevent our recapitolisation money supporting other countries. I see the Tories coming up with better ideas than Labour, but somehow Labour are making the idea that 'Tories would do nothing' stick when they are cluelessly doing anything and spending everything.

    Government needs to be more accountable for the long term - I suggest their pension is related to the state of the country when they leave power, compared to when they enter.

    You can blame the Tories for not being competent enough to make the public see that the person and his policies who got us into this mess and unable to deal with an issue is not the right person or policies to get us out if it.

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  • bigdogfan
    Love rating 0
    bigdogfan said

    Sorry everyone blimp on the computer!!

    DonaldTramp - personally I cant stand Gordon Brown but that's not the point here. The truth is the general public will be led by what they hear on the news and read in the papers. There have been reports of serious economic problems in the States and elsewhere. Are you saying these are fictional creations, part of some super plan to sucker us into believing there is some kind of global crisis? We can debate for ages as to whether Labour will win an election. These are not normal times and so what is normal anymore?

    Advent7 was right about greed but you are wrong as to who is to blame. The current greed culture started back in 1980's. No use landing it at the feet of Gordon Brown. Our economic system thrives on it until - without proper controls and regulation - it spirals out of control as it has at the moment.

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  • BigScaryHaynet
    Love rating 0
    BigScaryHaynet said

    Good article Cliff.

    Now for my two penny’s worth.

    Is no-one, except me and Private Eye, aware of Gordon’s “off-balance-sheet” borrowings through funding public sector expenditure via Private Venture Initiatives? (Private companies, usually foreign or off-shore based, provide facilities, workforce and management now in return for huge contracts, which will provide them with multibillions of pounds, paid by the government of the day, and huge profits on their investments, over the next ten/twenty/thirty years.)

    I have no connection with Private Eye, other than being a reader, but I would suggest a visit to your local library to read a copy, and see what is going on. They are more eloquent than me.

    Seems to me Gordon does everything he can to support his moneyed friends, at the expense of the great British unwashed public. Now he is bleeding savers so that the big banks can be bailed out. Presumably he thinks the UK will be on an “up” from a very low “low” just at the time he has to call the next election. He will know that the public has a very short memory, and with only David Cameron, and that LibDem guy whose name I cannot even recall, to contend with……..

    How will the financially clueless new borrowers, attracted to borrow even more by low interest rates, fare when interest rates go up again?

    Should banks NEED to borrow at LIBOR rates? For every borrower bank there is a lender bank, so doesn’t it all level out? Prudent banks surely would not need to borrow from other banks at all; they could trade purely within the limits set by their deposits from savers. Unless of course they wanted to make ever higher profits by borrowing from the private money markets.

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  • um5000
    Love rating 1
    um5000 said

    must say I'm unimpressed with the slating of the public sector in general - some of you are relating borrowing to the performance of the public sector - but borrowing (as per GB's rules) can only be for capital expenditure, not revenue. In real terms due to inflation the public sector revenue spending has been taking a real bashing over the past few years, that and so called efficiency drives.

    As for the economy - the problem derives largely from high gearing (debt to equity) - the resulting recession could be viewed as a necessary correction to the value of the £ / businesses in the UK / World. The government pumping money into the economy via reducing interest rates merely compounds the problem leaving the inevitable correction to later years (after the next election?!). Why (apart from inflation) should we expect the price of shares / value of companies to keep increasing forever? The banks are not passing on their margins because the shareholders expect the values to increase continually. Companies reported in the media are 'in serious trouble' and laying off workers because of e.g. 5% reductions in profits e.g. M&S, but reported increases in previous years - so what, this seems marginal to me? Why should the only way be up?

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  • fee2705
    Love rating 0
    fee2705 said

    Bigdogfan - You are one lone sensible voice in a sea of blinkered "lets knock labour cos everyone else is" whingeing.

    And no, I'm not a Gordon Brown fan either, but lets stop all the whining and moaning - he's in charge because we voted in Labour. Such is democracy. So can we just get on with the job in hand? Keeping our heads above water and hopefully below the redundancy parapet? There's much sense in his way of working...more money in our pockets equals more spending (hopefully not at the levels of the past few years, but enough to keep the economy moving). and more spending equals recovery. It's not rocket science. Regardless of who's to blame (and to think it's all Gordon Brown's fault is frankly ridiculous!), the fact of the matter remains. We are in recession and our Government is trying to get us out of it. It can't all be done at once and we must all take responsibility.

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  • LateDeveloper
    Love rating 22
    LateDeveloper said

    Bank of England was independant of the Government since 1997 last I heard. What has Gordon Brown got to do with it ?

    It is the BofE that sets the interest rates, not the Government, although I do believe the Government could actually do more by bringing in legislation that will force lenders to lower interest rates.

    Not all lenders as in mortgage lenders have reduced their interest rates in line with the BofE cuts, and other lenders still charge extortionately high rates for current borrowers. These rates need to be cut to free up money within the economy. By all means charge higher rates to new borrowers, to act as a deterrent to public sector borrowers.

    Making sure loans are cheaper at this time is not just for the public, but for business sectors where huge amounts of cash are needed to cover not only bad debts but late payments by other businesses.

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  • fullmast22
    Love rating 0
    fullmast22 said

    Gordon and Alastair have inflated the economy by ensuring those who borrow and spend had easy access to unlimited supplies of money. Unfortunately for them the credit crunch has put a stop to that folly. So they have adopted plan B, which is to reduce the interest rates to such low levels that the savers will no longer see the point in putting a little aside and will go forth and spend. In a years time the borrowers will have paid off some of their debts whilst the savers, by going on their spending spree, will have stoked up some inflation which will effectively reduce debt levels even further. Inflation will ensure that interest rates will need to be raised and we'll have gone a full circle where borrowers will no doubt start borrowing and spending again whilst savers will be encouraged to save again. All in time for the next election.

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  • fenemore
    Love rating 205
    fenemore said

    Dependancy on the State is THE classic way of buying votes. Be they non-jobs in local government, to career-choice single mums, the State feeds them and they in turn are NOT going to vote for hunger.

    If Brown thinks he has invented something new in this, then he was clearly reaing the wrong books for his History degree.

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  • bigdogfan
    Love rating 0
    bigdogfan said

    Fenemore - is that why Thatcher was popular for a time????

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  • supasap
    Love rating 19
    supasap said

    donaldtramp - I was talking about national or goverment debt not being particularly high not personal debt, I didn't think Gordon Brown could be held responsible for how much individuals spend on credit, the system itself promotes this, your irrational rant on the public sector is just that,,, irrational.... all modern states have large public sectors not only because of market failures (as bigdogfan says who would look after underpriveleged damaged souls, who would ensure waste is managed ok) but it feeds back positively into the economy through higher spend

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  • vurrister
    Love rating 0
    vurrister said

    Your out of shape Bigdogfan. - The Wilson gov. created the buorocratic bandwagon following the Poulson scandal - from there on fine print took prescedent over common sense (for good it would seem) ask your grandmother if your too young to remember. Delve into that era a little deeper and you should begin to understand why the education system went wrong as well (Shirley Williams was education minister then) Perhaps the long term solution to today's trouble is to repair the link between Common Sense and Education??

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  • bigdogfan
    Love rating 0
    bigdogfan said

    Not out of shape Vurrister. Started teaching in 1976 for my sins. Teaching then was really enjoyable. Most of my time outside the classroom was spent preparing and marking. Yes we had paperwork but nothing like the the deluge in the 1980's. Introduced by Ken Baker in 1988. I know because I worked through it!! The same haooened in health. Cant blame the pipe smoker or the Poulson scandal for that.

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  • bigdogfan
    Love rating 0
    bigdogfan said

    Vurrister - the link between Common Sense and Education has started with the scrapping of some of the SAT tests. It's going to take a long time before the sheer weight of bureaucratic nonsense is removed. Thankyou for thinking I might be young enough to still have a grandmother. Sadly lost my dad a few months ago aged 93 and have been a grandparent myself for some time.

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  • twohoots1
    Love rating 0
    twohoots1 said

    There seems to be some confusion as to what JohnMaynard kenyes actually proposed.His idea was that in recession you spent mainly on infrastructure projects .This puts jobs and money into construction and facilitates economic growth.

    This is very different from expanding bureucracy.

    In 1944 Adolph Speer cut out all the parer work in German arms production .The effect was remarkable and almost certainly prevented germany's collapse in october of that year .Not a laudable outcome but a demonstration of how much paperwork can strangle an economy.

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  • bigdogfan
    Love rating 0
    bigdogfan said

    Twohoots1 - absolutely right! Policy followed by Roosevelt in the 1930's in his New Deal - tackling infrastructure amongst other things eg building dams etc and of course the Nazis also put effort into infrastructure too eg the autobahns as well as war preparation. Now I'm watching with interest as Obama plans a 21st Century version to get America out of the current crisis. He's defined it as investment for the future. Time will tell. I know a lot of people are totally opposed to this as the financial costs will be a burden for future generations. The reality is if nothing is done future generations will end up paying for the social costs and in the long run these could become embedded in society at a far greater cost than any financial burden.

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  • mervynvictor
    Love rating 0
    mervynvictor said

    now heres the problem -we are never satistfied

    every body is talking doom and gloom lets try and be positive-not many in this country have starved to death or died cos we have no water-be thankful for what we have freedom of speech and the many blessings of living here -we could be elsewhere and oppressed.

    we have it good -come on think back to when we were kids -most living in run down council properties -most did not even have washing machines or colour tvs .

    the credit crunch will come to an end soon-things will get better.

    we had it double good before those times will return

    have we forgot already what happenned under the last goverment (im not a fan of most goverments but g brown and blair have not been all bad )

    did not interst rate go up to 16%-i mean i was only 25 with a mortgage that was only £175 it doubled-ouch

    ok lucky me had 2 jobs could support it then -imagin that happnning now -double ouch-

    i heard a lot of you say the pound has devalued so the cost of buying more from adroad is more expensive ( have you not remembered market forces -if we buy less prices will come down to just look at gas and oil-they have had to drop prices as people were buying less -so again may be a good thing (also oil droping in price means thngs will get cheaper to produce)

    lets start thinking positive

    the pound against the euro or dollar-does anybody not think like me we are europes biggest consumer so if pricves are not cheap enough in one country we just go to another for our product -pleany of emergining nations out there want our money -we just have to start looking around

    so what happens if we stop spending in europe their money now devalues and we return to where we were as their economy struggles and the euro devalues-

    i see this a bit like going to the gym a sort of cycle eg in the winter we put on fat and the summer we start going to the gym to lose it just see our economy as that way -positive

    so under gordon brown -i felt confident and did the bricks and mortor investment thing-remortgaged and borrowed and bought more and more-rather than put my money away in a bank and save

    best thing i ever did -now have 6 properties- 4 rented out -1 for my mother and one for me- i won't tell u how much more i am better off

    now had mr brown done nothing about something he did not cause (bear in mind we did not have a bad ecconomy over here its just the fallout from the states -don't forget the saying the usa sneezes and the rest of the world catches a cold.

    so what would we now have him do leave everything as it was with interest rates for the average person at 6-7 %-no hes done the right thing hoping to kick start the economy into normality by droping interest rates -thankyou very much -cos my mortgages are all dropping as they come to the end of their fixed terms -some into tracker rates some to standard variable rates but all dropping . ok so i cannot raise much more to buy ( but i still can buy more as i bought all below market value with good equity) -rents are the same but my cost of borrowing is far reduced eg can now buy a 3 bed around london for less than 250k (a lot of research and searching for this but thats what i do now )-wow as opposed to 350 k last year-and a rate of 4.5% as oposed to 5.5% buy to let - more so i am happy with the rentals from my properties -rates going down mean i my personal mortages are covered by the extra rent i achieve.

    ok i know this is only tempoary and is short term .

    so what shoud mr brown do

    try his best is all we can ask -there is no way he or any goverment in the uk wants to see us normal people suffer-does not make for good politics for any party does it .

    my only advise is spend more on education as this is the key to the whole thing-knowledge is power-mopre money on investment into developing uk industry-we were the forefront of the world now not so much as we taught them how to do it all-so lets invent more -keep the pateints and earn more.

    invest in uk compnies so they can spead their wings in emerging markets

    pride in our uk businesses look at virgin now a worldwide force to be reconed with .great on u mr branson -u are a wonderful role model -ethical business the way forward .

    help more to start the own businesses-it works for most people-you earn more working for yourself-a fact.

    invest in ways to make our dependancy on oil a thing of the past-free and much cjheaper energy sources

    sounds simple yes it is just that simple ( and thanks for raising the age of children leaving school to 18 -fantastic idea -ok its going to cost me more to help them out till they are earning thier own money but they are going to come out with better educations what more can i ask )

    one more little suggestion how about a morals class in schools to talk about what is wrong and right-good and bad -the carrot not the stick method of getting accross to young people how to have standards to live by.

    come on england pull together we can work this out make our lives and that of every one around us better.

    POSITIVE THINKING ITS NOT THAT BAD IT WILL GET BETTER WE JUST HAVE TO WORK AT IT THAT LITTLE BIT HARDER.

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  • bigdogfan
    Love rating 0
    bigdogfan said

    thanks for that mervyn! Oh and by the way they do teach citizenship these days for what it's worth! However most of us learn our lessons in life from parents - God help us all when you see what a mess some make of it!

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  • kindredclive
    Love rating 0
    kindredclive said

    Crikey guys after reading through that lot not only had I forgotten my post but forgotten what the article was about in the first place!!

    It seems to me that people are not thinking about the LTV percentage they have when it comes to renewing there mortgage and like several people I know have just opted for a tracker to pay lower rates then fix a deal when rates start to climb again. This is fine if you have a low LTV up to 60% at the time of fixing a deal,not so bad if you are up to 75% LTV but good deals are very rare upwads of this and currently I think there are only 2 lenders that will actually lend above 90% LTV right now. In May last year my house was worth £270,00 giving me an LTV of around 45% the current value of my house is £220,000 giving me around 68% LTV so I have still managed to secure a pretty good fixed rate deal but i six months I have no doubt that my LTV will be above 75% therefore putting me out of the "good fixed rate deal" bracket. Friends of mine have been lucky and just secured a tracker at 74%LTV but in 6 months this is likey to be around 85% or even higher so the risk they may not be able to fix a decent rate or have to pay huge booking fees for a decent mortgage rate therefore wiping out the savings they have made on their payments. Of course this is all ifs and buts and the needs of each family or individual are always different.A word to the wise is to be careful when chasing these low rate tracker deals as they will not be around forever, you may at the time when B of E starts putting rates up, find yourself with very high LTV or even negative equity and be unable to secure a fixed rate deal as lenders will not lend to you. As a result your tracker will go up and up and the likely outcome is they will go as high as 7 or 8 % and you will be left paying the price. There are not many financial advisors that will advise of this risk at the moment and it was advised to me by L & C (a partner of moneyfool) when I myself started off chasing a low rate tracker deal to make huge savings.

    Just beware of your LTV and if it starts to get around the 75% mark my advise would to be fix a deal then and dont wait for any further reductions as you will end up paying the price in the long run!!

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  • leslie48
    Love rating 0
    leslie48 said

    The Anti-Brownites are at it again living in some Thacherite time warp- ranting about public spending whatever and wanting to reduce it like the Baroness did back in the early 80s and thereby create a host of further economic & socual problems. Get wise guys and get beyond on your Daily Mail or daily dExpress mentality.

    1) Most of the enlightened commentators ( including the FT) & leading UK economists are taking the Keynesian approach which is as a nation we HAVE to spend & spend to save the UK from entering an even worse recession otherwise higher unemployment & plunging property prices will follow. The Government has to spend ...

    2) Just like America - the home of Free Markets

    3) Germany , Japan, France and America are all following the UK pattern of government spending/ borrowing and bail outs

    4) The crisis originates in the globalised Banking systems not in the policies of a successful New Labour Ecomomy

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  • Hardtruth
    Love rating 66
    Hardtruth said

    Wow leslie48 that's an apologist's diatribe if ever I saw it. Let's just correct a few of your rose tinted truths shall we...

    0. Go back pre-80s to paint your picture properly - 1976 a cap-in-hand Healey trots off to the IMF to plead poverty for a bankrupt UK amidst virtual social breakdown, strikes everywhere, rubbish piled in the streets, public services in meltdown.

    1. Wrong on two counts: Some (not most) commentators (e.g. Anatoly Kaletsky of the Times) are supporting a general spending medicine, largely consumer driven, but this is different from Keynes' prescription which broadly is centred on public works expenditure. For sure this has become the dogma-of-the-day for Brown but you need to read your history. Keynes was regarded as a maverick in the 30s and his ideas were never actually put into practice by anyone. If (god help us) Brown continues down this track it will be the first run out of the stables for Keynesian policies.

    2. America is a free market in so far as it suits America. You need to read more on GATT to begin to understand how "free" America's market really is. And what is America spending on - clapped out institutions (Freddie, Fanny, AIG) and deadbeat car companies whose death knell is nigh.

    3. Germany was recently deeply critical of Brown's economic policies and is taking a forensic and scalpel approach to supporting its institutions rather than the blunt instrument and bosh approach in the UK. If the UK is the leader in all of this then how do you explain the collapse of sterling ? Markets have a habit of reflecting the truth of the matter.

    4. The "New Labour Economy", as you call it, is the house that Blair built on Thatcher's foundation but what a cost, all presided over by Uncle Gordo of course. Where are the UK's gold reserves? Where are the surplus cash mountains generated in the bubble years? Yep that's right bare cupboard and not much to show for it.

    Bottom line Leslie you give every impression of a Labour luvvie - heavy on bluster and rhetoric, low on balance, facts and substance.

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  • bigdogfan
    Love rating 0
    bigdogfan said

    Hardtruth - Perhaps given your assertion that no one has ever tried the Keynesian model (or a version of it) - you need to check out Roosevelt's New Deal in the 1930's which had massive expenditure on US infrastructure (as well as other more social policies). The model of spending / investing to get out of a depression was also adopted by the Nazis in rebuilding Germany and preparing for war in the 1930's. Please dont tell people to read their history when you clearly dont know yours!!! ..and please dont insult me by calling me a Labour luvvie either. I just dont appreciate the rewriting of history just to suit an argument.

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  • onemarcus
    Love rating 0
    onemarcus said

    In America and Nazi Germaany it was massive spending on the war machine that finally brought them out of depression.

    In Army manavoures in 1936 the US Army had to borrow transsport trucks because they did not have enough, their Army was as small as Portugals. By 1945 there were the most powerful and well equipped army the world had ever seen.

    The point is Keynesian economics and spending on public works did not bring the world out of recession World War II and the emrgence of new industries such as the car and aircraft industry did.

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  • bigdogfan
    Love rating 0
    bigdogfan said

    You are right of course onemarcus - it was the war that finally ended the great depression but Keynesian style expenditure under the New Deal kick started the US economy. The car industry per se wouldnt have rescued the US economy if there werent people in jobs able to buy cars.(US unemployment at 25%!!) We will never know what the Keynsian approach on its own would have achieved because of the war but we do know that the war itself generated massive government expenditure.

    Here is a quote from an American Economic Historian:

    "Keynes provided the theoretical basis for Roosevelt’s New Deal, during which the government funded countless public projects and social programs, including Social Security."

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NatWest Platinum MasterCard

0% for 26 months (2.65% fee) Representative 18.9% APR (variable) Apply
Representative example: assumed borrowing of £1,200, representative 18.9% APR (variable). Purchase rate 18.95% PA (variable).

Royal Bank of Scotland Platinum MasterCard

0% for 26 months (2.65% fee) Representative 18.9% APR (variable) Apply
Representative example: assumed borrowing of £1,200, representative 18.9% APR (variable). Purchase rate 18.95% PA (variable).
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