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Crisis Update: More Good News Than Bad

Ed Bowsher
by Lovemoney Staff Ed Bowsher on 14 October 2008  |  Comments 33 comments

The banking crisis may be past its worst point. But we still live in troubled times.

It looks like Gordon Brown's bank bailout is beginning to restore confidence. As I write London's FTSE-100 index is up more than 5% at 4,500 points following an 8% jump yesterday.

What's more, the US government has announced a plan to invest up to $250bn (£145bn) in US banks. The New York Times reported that half of that sum will be put into nine large banks including Citigroup, Bank of America and Goldman Sachs. The US will also guarantee new debt issued by banks for three years.

There are some small signs of improvement in the credit markets. The overnight sterling Libor rate has fallen from 5.6% to 5.43% which is a welcome fall. These interbank rates are still at unusually high levels, but if we are seeing an easing in the credit market, banks may start to feel confident enough to lend to each other and also to their customers. Then we can avoid a slump and `just' have a recession instead.

Bad news, too

But it's not all good news today. Consumer inflation has risen to 5.2%, way higher than the government's 2% target. In normal times, that would mean a rise in the Bank of England's base rate was on the cards.

However, falling commodity prices and a weak economy probably mean the rate of inflation will start falling soon. So I'd be surprised to see a base rate rise in the near future. Further cuts are still possible.

On the housing front, the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors (RICS) published some pretty negative data. During the three months to September, the average surveyor completed 11.5 sales which is a new low for a series that started in 1978.

Of course, falling house prices are welcome for many people, but they won't encourage consumers to spend and boost demand in the economy.

The outlook from here

Given everything we've been through in recent weeks, it's perhaps rash to make predictions, but I can't resist.

I suspect that the banking crisis is beginning to end. But it's not party time. Economies across the world have been hit and I reckon a recession is almost certain. But a full-blown depression looks less likely than it did at the end of last week.

More: The Stock Market Week From Hell

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Comments (33)

  • Wolfgang39
    Love rating 0
    Wolfgang39 said

    Why have you removed ING Direct from your list of recommended savings accounts?

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  • carlyboy2008
    Love rating 0
    carlyboy2008 said

    I note Barclays have stayed out of the the bail out, but please beware! last month I had 5k of cleared funds in my account, i have no direct debits, no standing orders, no debts and no loans, si I payed a bill of 1k, this would leave me +4k in my account, and guess what happened, Barclays bounced my payment as insufficient funds, to say I was angry was an under statement, so I contacted my branch, bless them they said we are very very sorry but we didnt mean you had insufficient funds, we meant we didnt have the funds at the time you wanted to pay your bill, consider it like this, the money in your account is just numbers, when you spend it, it becomes real and we pay what you spend (if we have got it) and at that very moment we didnt have 1k, but your bill is paid now so whats your problem you sad little customer, so I asked around the town where I live and it seems its happened quite a lot. Fool have my contact details if they want to get in touch.

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  • LadyAnglesey
    Love rating 0
    LadyAnglesey said

    Egads, carlyboy2008! That certainly is food for thought.

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  • peepobaby
    Love rating 49
    peepobaby said

    earlyboy2008, I can believe it. Two large UK banks have also been blocking transfers into NS&I under the claim that they could be fraudulent.

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  • SydMel
    Love rating 0
    SydMel said

    carlyboy2008 that is shocking news. Perhaps I should immediately withdraw all of my money from my Barclays account?

    Moving on, and being admittedly pedantic, have you ever heard of punctuation? It makes text readable, rather than a long and incomprehensible stream of consciousness.

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  • palexgood
    Love rating 0
    palexgood said

    Ed Bowsher quote: "Given everything we've been through in recent weeks, it’s perhaps rash to make predictions, but I can't resist…

    I suspect that the banking crisis is beginning to end. But it’s not party time. Economies across the world have been hit and I reckon a recession is almost certain. But a full-blown depression looks less likely than it did at the end of last week."

    As an Engineer I tend to see things rather differently compared to economists and financial experts. The increasingly vast positive and negative changes in the stock markets are similar to the increasing oscillations in an engineering system running out of control. I pray that I'm wrong but I suspect that the financial system will self destruct unless it can be brought thoroughly under control very quickly.

    So far, politicians have responded insufficiently and too slowly. This is really worrying because experience has taught me that rapid and over-the-top control is the only way to minimise damage and avoid disaster.

    I've emailed my MP and various quality newspapers and broadcasters to try and promote this view but I've not yet heard the comparison mentioned.

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  • PrinceoftheHi11s
    Love rating 0
    PrinceoftheHi11s said

    Ah palexgood!! Remember Nero who,we are told, fiddled and played while Rome burned.
    Our reactive Government members only really care about their very deep pockets overflowing with our money.They don't care about the real people of this World.The money keeps flowing in their World--Bank leaders resigning with real handsome pay checks and pensions, Disgraced former ministers being reintroduced into the Government. All at our expense.
    It looks like crap, it smells like crap,and to be quite honest it is all crap!!

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  • PrinceoftheHi11s
    Love rating 0
    PrinceoftheHi11s said

    Wolfgang39.
    I think you will find that ING Bank is on the endangered species list in the Netherlands. That is probably why it has been withdrawn.

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  • DIODES
    Love rating 0
    DIODES said

    ref carlyboy2008 story : forgive me for being niave but if i read this right if a bank has not got the money ( ours ) to pay a bill (even if it is our own bill) surely that means they are insolvent? Any other company would be put into the hands of a receiver?

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  • Swarbs
    Love rating 273
    Swarbs said

    DIODES, very good point - maybe carlyboy 2008 should call in the baliffs. Would be a very poetic kind of justice!

    Although it does raise a very serious point. According to a friend of mine who's a senior manager for one of the banks, if house prices fall by another 10-20%, all the banks will face the same situation. They will have to write down their asset values, meaning they have to hold more capital under the Basel II agreement. Banks will then have to stop paying direct debits, standing orders and payment requests as a matter of course, otherwise they actually will all go bankrupt! Kind of adds a different complexion to Neil's comment that "falling house prices are welcome for many people", doesn't it! The house price may be affordable, but you can't get a mortgage or even withdraw your savings to buy it...

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  • Funkyalfa
    Love rating 0
    Funkyalfa said

    There are real people out there with real money, some of them (polititions and hedge fund managers et all) have lots of real money. To a degree they are the ones that needing courting and looking after. The rest, well, perhaps they should be allowed to 'market correct' themselves really. It is mostly them, and of course the Americans fault in the first place.

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  • 5753225
    Love rating 0
    5753225 said

    Palexgood, the reason why no one in politics or the press takes up your analogy is because they are unable to understand it. They haven't studied either science or engineering and they have no idea of what positive feedback is. [I even read an account of the banking crisis in one quality broadsheet where it was referred to as "negative feedback"!]

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  • 5753225
    Love rating 0
    5753225 said

    Whatever happened to Banks' secret reserves? As I recall banks used to be able to keep secret reserves to counter exactly the eventuality we've just experienced.

    As no one could know how close to the edge they were, no one would short their shares or remove their funds in the expectation of a bank collapse... thereby causing the bank to collapse.

    No doubt the regulators in their infinite wisdom at some time in the past removed this provision as archaic and unnecessary for modern banking.

    When my mother inherited some Midland Bank shares from her grandmother in 1951, she discovered to her horror that they were £12 shares, £4 paid up. She had inherited a potential liability of £8 per share! She was assured that the Midland Bank would never call up this capital, and, indeed, sometime in the 1960s the shares were re-organised and made fully paid up. But clearly the board of the Midland Bank knew what it was doing when it issued partly paid shares. How simple would it be for our banks to raise extra capital they need at this time of crisis if their shares followed this simple expedient?

    In the past bankers knew what they were doing. The present lot, judging by the size of their salaries, know better.

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  • AdAstra100
    Love rating 26
    AdAstra100 said

    Hi 5753225,
    I read that to and did blog to explain that they were using an incorrect analogy as negative feedback should prevent the system going unstable. Sadly though, positive feedback does seem very appropriate Viz;

    The Government offers capital and to buy new shares.
    Private investors know this is the kiss of death because of dilution and because they (Brown) want to control dividends but still take back a usurious share in preference dividends. So moreinvestors sell and the price goes down further.

    As the price goes down so the Government's capital buys more shares and gets more control, so more investors bail out. This cycle continues until the dirty deed is finally done with the share value at Marconi levels and the Government has fully nationalised the banks at a very low cost and secured a revenue stream to keep public expenditure up. Look at the RBS share price!

    The media make any feedback into positive feedback by going over the top and raising investor angst without really knowing what the Government deal is. Not that anyone knows anyway.

    Say goodbye to your pensions people!

    Regards

    AdAstra

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  • ogram23
    Love rating 6
    ogram23 said

    Adastra I have been thinking the same. Who wants to buy shares in a bank with no dividend and assets falling (ie besides toxic good investments are also dropping which includes property). It seems to me as you said bank shares are on a downward spiral and could be a couple of large banks in government's hands.

    This may not be such a bad thing as long as good practices are put in place. The one thing I would not like to see is the boards being filled with vacuous civil servants (or city buddies).

    Sucggest they are recruited from the real world ie business people who have had the necessity of financing their company and finding money for wages. Maybe a good start would be young business person of the year or of that ilk.

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  • Varstar
    Love rating 0
    Varstar said

    carlyboy2008, having worked for several banks over many years, I can honestly say the cashier/manage is talking rubbish (as many new-ish public facing staff do because they don't really know what's happening in the back office). I guess you paid the bill via a DD or ATM transfer, these are dealt with at a central site by a big computer, which (in simple terms) comes up with a grand total at the end of each day, Barclays paid £500M to Lloyds, Lloyds paid £450M to Barclays, therefore Barclays owe Lloyds £50M. I'm not sure if the settlement takes place daily or weekly, but it involves gold bricks/cash moving around the basement of the Bank of England. Now it may be that Barclays delayed your transfer to smooth out their settlement payments (but I doubt it), it would certainly be the first time I've ever heard it done, it's more likely a 'computer blunder' as the press like to call it... They happen with alarming regularity, but most are covered up and most customers don't notice...

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  • Debdarling
    Love rating 0
    Debdarling said

    Hi
    Can I suggest to Carlyboy2008 that he checks out the penaly charges his bank charges customers for bouncing a payment for insufficent funds + those nasty daily overdrawn penatly rates (Oh and the charge for sending out a letter).
    And sends them a letter informing them that he is charging THEM at their rates.
    Suggest that they can pay up or see them in court. Should be an interesting one. LOL
    Deb

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  • sandybod
    Love rating 0
    sandybod said

    Dear Carlyboy2008 & all other Motley Fool members - my husband also has been declined using his cash card - switch/maestro, we bank with Natwest, had problems at first whilst in East Africa 2 weeks ago and now also in the UK so he was a bit stranded, luckily he had his works VISA card which he had to use whilst in Africa. Now back in UK but still has problems - getting declined, unfortunately at the moment due to being on a training course has not had the time to contact the bank about it so until he has time he's stuck, I have to keep giving him cash every day, it's a bit like rationing though! Yet our bank balance is about £3K + with a £5K overdraft facility - yet cannot even go to the cash machine as that declines giving any cash, yet returns his card back rather than swallowing it?

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  • keith1942
    Love rating 0
    keith1942 said

    ogram23 can we really rely on CEO in many companies? The number of times we see bosses of quoted companies produce massive losses blaming market forces for the loss only when some large investor complains does the board point out he(or she)must accept responsibility they resign with a six figure payoff plus share options and a pension much greater than 99.9% of people receive. Other employee of the company who making a relatively minor error would be dismissed with out compensation no share options and only their own pension contributions returned.
    Until ALL buisness leaders accept that high salaries demand outstanding performances paticularily in the banking industry which is the hub of all buisness we will always be at the risk of the ongoing problems we have now. No poitician whatever their party can do anything but pick up the pieces when dissaster occurs as whatever regulation is brought in will be circumvented by one means or another by the city manipulators

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  • Hardtruth
    Love rating 66
    Hardtruth said

    Had the same problem at Barclays over three recent payments one of which the payee then charged me a penalty for missing the DD payment. So I let Barclays have both barrels and they have sheepishly offered to reimburse the fees and compensate for the time I wasted sorting their mistakes out.

    Suggest you similarly affected 'fools' do likewise. It's the only way these arrogant people learn.

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  • carlyboy2008
    Love rating 0
    carlyboy2008 said

    Hi the payment was made by online banking and took a full 24 hours to bounce, a cold, hard and calculating chain of events planned by a bank, and now my printed bank statemnet has vanished in the post, well they have to cover there tracks, but its no problem I have screen pulls from online banking all printed here, you can kid the majority of people most of the time barclays but you wont kid me! The annoying thing is that it must take someone on at least 250k a year to figure out this scam and how to hide it.

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  • realist2008
    Love rating 0
    realist2008 said

    Hi y'all.

    At a well-attended banking seminar, given today by Trevor Williams (Lloyds TSB director of economic research) I learned that 10 years ago the average UK citizen had a debt of 60% of household income (HHI). This is now 170% of HHI - an amount of £1.8T. By comparison UK GDP is £1.4T.

    He also reminded us that the economic slowdown, and the credit crunch, whilst related, are operating separately.

    It's remarkable how little impact either has yet had outside the stock markets. It says a lot for blind optimism, and the resiliance of the UK economy.

    However do expect:
    - interest rates of 4%
    - Forex £1= $1.5, €1.2
    - 2 years 0% growth
    - continued government spending, (at least until election, and later, Olympics)
    - tax increases and reducing retail sales
    - gently rising defaults in every sector.
    - slight increase in unemployed, but slowing as immigrant labour leaves the country for better paid Europe.

    For each family it's payback time, as we unpick that 1£T of excess HHI debt. Over 10 years - that's around 5% of inflation-adjusted GDP.

    Time to watch the pennies. Which is just what the banks are doing with these delays in payments.

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  • TONYRINSE
    Love rating 0
    TONYRINSE said

    Whats going on with ING ? some funny comments obove today! hmmm i have yet to here there not safe?

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  • ogram23
    Love rating 6
    ogram23 said

    Have been trying over the last week trying to get my mind round how we are now in this position. Getting some idea but although billions are being bandied around needed to sort the problem, there seems to be no definitive figure of exactly how much default is happenning and likely to happen. Also how much each institution is at risk.

    There is a killing to be made and I am trying to identify where. I am sure there are some clever gurus who know. Please tell. Problem is it may start another bubble!

    Keith of course the fat cats have benefitted and will continue to do so unless we put some restriction in place (not only CEOs etc but also mps and their like).The thinking behind this is they have made money and so should be rewarded. BUT the money was made not so much by their abilities but by following the herd and benefiting by the greed fostered in all of us. The continuing argument is that if we do not pay these high salaries/bonuses we will lose good executives. I have said this is nonsense for years and now we see just how good these executives in industry and government really are!

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  • Accountantsmum
    Love rating 0
    Accountantsmum said

    Two points. First, in response to palexgood, I used to teach control engineering. The way to deal with an unstable oscillatory system is simple: drastically reduce the gain! If the fat cats of banking had genuinely performance related pay, they'd be paying to keep their jobs right now. Cut the cream-off and we'd be on the way to restoring sense.
    Second, re. Ing: I read recently on TMF that Ing were among the still-safe banks, along with HSBC (sheer size and share of asian market keeping it relatively immune from what is mainly a Western problem). I was hoping this was still the case... but haven't yet got cash there. I'm looking for a good home for an inheritance, though: any suggestions?

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  • harepath
    Love rating 0
    harepath said

    Palexgood is right about applying scientific/engineering principles to economic management. The system needs some friction to introduce damping to slow down the oscillations. Transaction charges (or a small tax) help, but the rush to deregulation ruled that out. The 'masters of the universe' didn't want any restrictions on their fantastically (I think I may mean that literally) complicated operations.

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  • angelic14
    Love rating 0
    angelic14 said

    Please can you tell us if you know anything about ING as my KE money has gone there and I also have savings with them. Please tell us why they have been taken off the list of safe savings???

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  • veronice
    Love rating 0
    veronice said

    wow carlyboy2008, Barclays did this to me too, except the "mistake" was for £25,000!!

    They double-debted me, I noticed on Saturday when I could not withdraw funds even though I am £2000 in credit, I contacted them immediately, have since spent over 20 hours on the phone but the buck is still being passed and my account is still minus £25,000.

    By Monday my cheques started bouncing (I had never bounced a cheque in my life before this), next my direct debits. And of course as well as adversely affecting my reputation by bouncing cheques, the bank is charging me for it.

    I have a business account with Barclays too and pay for a Business Account Manager, who refuses to take or return my calls.

    Since Saturday I have been put through to many departments, who all saw the error made by the branch but could not do anything about it.

    I have had promise after promise that I will be called back, but nothing. The branch manager was to have phoned first thing this morning, nothing, I obtained his mobile phone number (from debit services!) and phoned repeatedly and left messages, nothing.

    I phoned the assistant branch manager's mobile phone, no answer.

    Out of desperation I tried the mobile phone of another branch's assistant manager, I asked for the assistant manager of my branch... lo and behold she was sitting next to him, but still refused to take my call.

    I've phoned them over 20 times today... one chap was going to phone me back in 15 minutes... around 4 hours ago. Nothing.

    I finally got the manager, he is going to type up a fax and call me back... still waiting.

    I phoned my business account manager's manager, he is going to try to find my business account manager and make sure she calls me back by 4pm.

    Its now 4:06... nothing...

    I am so upset with Barclays, not so much for the £25,000 "mistake" they made, but for refusing to rectify it, and treating me like a huge inconvenience when this is all their fault.

    I am closing my accounts as soon as I get the "missing" £25,000.

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  • MarsExpress0
    Love rating 0
    MarsExpress0 said


    angelic14
    15 Oct 2008, 2:55pm
    Please can you tell us if you know anything about ING as my KE money has gone there and I also have savings with them. Please tell us why they have been taken off the list of safe savings???


    ING have NOT been removed from the Motley Fool's list.

    See: http://www.fool.co.uk/savings/compare-savings-accounts.aspx

    Wolfgang39 and PrinceoftheHi11s are mistaken.

    Why is it so difficult to check the facts for yourselves? It is always wise to remember that some people like to sow mischief, especially to fools.

    Cheers,

    keith

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  • jackhosana
    Love rating 0
    jackhosana said

    mm Interesting, enough money to keep paying the big boys, enough money to pay solicitors to tie up our stolen monies, but not enough to pay our money to bills or honour their own banking codes, ten days to clear cheques, that's what Lloyds-TSB have been doing with my business account. not the only ones, Clydesdale taking seven days, OH I should say working days. That's right up to ten days on personal account and 14 days on Business. That means if any of my bills go out in between times I get whacked for at least £60. what a scam to be a poor banker today eh.. bail me out please!!!

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  • brian5312
    Love rating 0
    brian5312 said

    palexgood

    "I've emailed my MP and various quality newspapers and broadcasters"

    Futile.. they dont understand Engineering concepts like most of the media.Take the example of the latest reporting of the Halon Collider.All that nonsense about the end of the world.I think thats been more likely in the last week.

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  • notdeadfred
    Love rating 0
    notdeadfred said

    Regarding blocking of transfers to NS and I, this has just happened to me. I successfully applied on-line for index linked certificates last week, only to learn (from NS andI) yesterday that Cahoot have blocked the transfer of my funds.
    I immediately phoned Cahoot customer services to complain, only to be told that all of their systems are down and to call back later. That was yesterday. Tried again today and they are still out of action (their website is down), blaming a huge power cut.
    Surely an on-line bank must have robust power backup facilities to keep them operating? Is this just an excuse? Am I being paranoid or is another bank in trouble??

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  • poppleton
    Love rating 0
    poppleton said

    I can add RBS to those banks refusing to honour switches when a more than adequate balance is in the account (transfer from RBS to NS&I).
    Is a credit union a sensible alternative to using the 'normal' banks?

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