Follow this topicFollow this topic Knowledge » House prices

Why we should let house prices fall

Harvey Jones
by Lovemoney Staff Harvey Jones on 24 April 2009  |  Comments 63 comments

Harvey Jones explains why the Chancellor shouldn't attempt to reverse the trend of falling house prices.

A chorus of mortgage and housing specialists has been lamenting Chancellor Alistair Darling's lacklustre Budget Day attempts to revive the property market.

"Disappointing", is the common refrain, while others sing of "missed opportunities" and "largely ineffectual" measures. They all believe he should have done much more to prop up the housing market, and get the economy moving again.

While I'm in harmony with their complaint that Darling is fiddling while the housing market burns, after that I strike a bum note.

Because I don't think he should have done anything at all to reverse the fall in property prices.

He should simply let them slide.

Half measures

As we have come to expect from this Government, Darling's attempts to coax first-time buyers into the property market are more about appearing to be doing something, rather than actually achieving anything.

So, we see the stamp duty holiday for properties up to £175,000 extended until the end of the year.

An £80 million extension to Homebuy Direct, the Government-backed shared equity scheme for wannabe homeowners.

And a £500 million injection to help housebuilders to finish mothballed newbuild projects.

These measures may attract a few vaguely positive headlines, but the real impact will be minimal.

It ain't all gravy

First, the £175,000 stamp duty threshold is to be extended for a paltry three months, and its subsequent withdrawal could spark further volatility at the lower end of the market. It will also do little for first-time buyers in pricier areas such as London and the south.

Second, £80 million ain't all that much.

And frankly, nor is £500 million. It is enough to complete around 2,500 average-sized homes, a mere 1% of the Government's target of 240,000 homes a year until 2016.

In any case, it isn't the shortage of homes that is the problem, but the shortage of mortgage finance.

Finally, none of these measures will help first-time buyers who can't scrape together the 25% deposit most lenders now demand.

Liquidity lunch

Darling is attempting to increase the supply of finance to first-time buyers, by guaranteeing £50 billion in mortgage-backed securities.

This may improve liquidity a little, but even £50 billion won't replace the collapsed securitisation market.

And critics claim that most of the support will go to 60% or even 80% LTV mortgages, which very few first-timers will be able to access.

Please, sir, can we have some more?

Lenders, brokers, housebuilders, estate agents and chartered surveyors have all been singing the same tune, that Darling should have done (they mean spent) so much more. And of course they do. They all want a share of the taxpayer cash that has been so liberally sprayed over the banks.

But they're wrong. The nation's coffers are hardly flush with cash, so it seems a shame to squander what little we do have on schemes that will have such a marginal impact.

And the last thing we need is to lavish scarce public money on trying to prop up an unaffordable and unsustainable housing market.

High tax, low growth economy

The market may have fallen 21%, but I still think prices need to fall further, for the good of us all.

And they will.

The nation's finances have all but collapsed. Hauling us out of this mess will take years, and involve startingly higher taxes and depressingly lower economic growth than politicians will admit.

First-time buyers of the future will be desperately struggling to clear student debts, find halfway-decent jobs and pay austerity taxes on the money they do earn. We can hardly expect them to borrow five or six times their income to keep house prices buoyant as well.

Why estate agents think it's a good thing

As a homeowner myself, I take no pleasure in the prospect of further house price falls, but neither do I reap any joy from the thought of first-time buyers taking on a mountain of debt to buy a molehill of a property.

And I definitely don't believe that they should be given financial incentives to climb on the property ladder at the moment, while the market is still overpriced.

That's what the National Association of Estate Agents is calling for, claiming it will get the entire market moving again. In other words, use the younger generation to shore up the overvalued properties of their parents and grandparents (and fund estate agents' bonuses into the bargain).

Down, down, down

Perhaps I'm being too brutal. After all, the taxpayer had to bail out the banks, why not the housing market?

The nation feels happier when house prices are rising, sadder when they are falling. Propping them up would put a smile back on the face of UK PLC.

It would also defer a lot of human misery, including my own, something I'm normally in favour of.

But I still believe it would be the wrong decision. I would like to see house prices fall below their long-term average of four times average income, to reflect the new economic reality. They aren't there yet.

The sooner that happens, the better. Only once the bubble has been conclusively pricked can the housing market, and the economy, begin the slow process of rebuilding.

Until that day, any first-time buyer suckered into the property market will rightly feel they have been cheated.

More: Lies, damned lies and statistics | Why house prices have further to fall

Enjoyed this? Show it some love

Twitter
General

Comments (63)

  • stu531
    Love rating 9
    stu531 said

    Absolutely spot on.

    For too long the apparent growth in house prices has made the country into haves- and have-nots. If you're reasonably young, on a reasonable wage, but without a house, you've no chance of ownership - unless you rent from someone who, wasn't previously a landlord, but decided to jump on the bandwagon of buy-to-let.

    Since when did we turn from house-livers into house-greeders?

    Like anything else, the market is cyclical, and the massive greed poured onto the market is now coming to haunt. It's a repeat of every other boom-and-bust, only this time, there is no legacy.

    Once it sorts out, as HJ says, we should be in a more equitable climate, where families can buy their own place - as it always should have been.

    Don't invest in houses - live in them.

    Report on 24 April 2009  |  Love thisLove  1 love
  • Gilo1979
    Love rating 0
    Gilo1979 said

    Agreed, great article. All common sense really but it's refreshing to read such an objective take on the subject.

    Whilst I am tired of the propaganda of the vested interests talking about getting "back to normal", I am increasingly saddened by the proportion of people looking forward to a crash with a sense of glee.

    In my opinion the correction should be about getting houses back to the levels where they are things we live in and they are neither a huge asset (except if and when you have paid off your debt) nor a huge liability.

    That seems common sense, but I can sympathise with existing homeowners. Getting to that point will punish people who were greedy or negligent but it will also punish people who were scared (of never affording a home for their family), unlucky (to have saved/earned enough and been at the right stage in their life to buy, pre-crash) or financially naive ("low interest rates will last forever", "supply and demand means prices will only go up").

    I will take no pleasure seeing these people suffer and I can understand that there is the temptation to help them (and not just politically speaking). But it is clearly wrong to sustain prices just to achieve this. Here's hoping....

    Report on 24 April 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • ben
    Love rating 32
    ben said

    Agree with both of the above. All markets go up and down in cycles and should surely be allowed to behave as such. I can see no reason to spend money to re-establish the massively over-inflated state that the housing market was in before. I'd guess this time around it'll take more than the perceived wealth of high house prices to make people happy with the economic situation.

    Report on 24 April 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Yorkstyke
    Love rating 89
    Yorkstyke said

    Best article you've ever written Harvey!

    Report on 24 April 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • rajkanwarbatra
    Love rating 1
    rajkanwarbatra said

    I just bought a flat so I got to argue for Government to pump money into housing market:) so I can sell it at a higher price later on.

    Their is not much of substance in the article. It is essentially a rehash of what is known by every one.

    However one thing I am perplexed about is this notion that house prices have to be on an average of four times average earnings. I think in making this argument people forget:

    - The thinking of general population in terms of interest rates has moved. While previously interest rates of 10% would be considered normal now no body reasonably expects the mortgage rates to be above 6% over the long term. What would be helpfull if some " expert" could share with us what the long term mortgage interest rate is say over last 50-60 years.

    - The ratio has to inexorably creep upwards for simple reason that while land is the same population is increasing. In addition the raw material to make homes is also getting relatively scarce and expense.

    - Government continues to intervene in the market with creates an upward distrotion effect.

    - Average earnings effect on the property has to be considered carefully. A whole lot of housing stock in the country is held by councils which is made available to people on low or no earnings for free. There are more people on the dole now and have free housing available to them. A correct comparision would be to consider the house price excluding council housing and compare with average earnings for the people who actually are or have been in the running for purchasing a housing in the first place.

    On the above basis I cant see house prices falling any further by more than 7.5% in an extreme case. Now I believe is the last opportuanity to get a good deal.

    Report on 24 April 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Gilo1979
    Love rating 0
    Gilo1979 said

    @rajkanwarbatra

    While I can't claim to be an expert and you may be right, I have to debate a few points

    > The thinking of general population in terms of interest rates has moved. While previously interest rates of 10% would be considered normal now no body reasonably expects the mortgage rates to be above 6% over the long term.

    I certainly know people who expect rates to be higher than 6%. Maybe not in the long term (what's that, over 10 years? 20 years?) but in the medium term and long enough to do massive damage to the ability to pay. However, the problem is not what I or anyone else expects, it's what actually happens. I'm guessing no-one in Iceland expected their current situation either. The general expectation for low interest rates comes entirely from the experience of the past 20 years. I think recent evidence suggests this might not be the best benchmark for "normal".

    >What would be helpfull if some " expert" could share with us what the long term mortgage interest rate is say over last 50-60 years.

    I'd also like to know this. I'm not sure what time period I would choose but post-war seems reasonable. Does anyone know or care to estimate?

    - The ratio has to inexorably creep upwards for simple reason that while land is the same population is increasing. In addition the raw material to make homes is also getting relatively scarce and expense.

    Good old supply and demand. I agree with the "creep", say in line with population growth (0.279% for 2009 according to an estimate here ttps://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/print/uk.html). Immigration at current rates would take that up (2.16 migrants/1,000 population - same source) although I'd expect the net rate to fall or go negative at some point.

    Not sure how the maths works but that's still less than 1% isn't it?

    I also understand that land and materials actually make up a smaller proportion than most people appreciate. It's the planning permission and developer profit elements that make up the rest of the figure. 

    - Government continues to intervene in the market with creates an upward distrotion effect.

    Sadly true. Let's assume they would do this forever. Thankfully they can't.

    >Average earnings effect on the property has to be considered carefully. A whole lot of housing stock in the country is held by councils which is made available to people on low or no earnings for free. There are more people on the dole now and have free housing available to them.

    I don't have the numbers or time sadly but I'm sure someone else will pick this up. The reply could be an essay though!

    > A correct comparision would be to consider the house price excluding council housing and compare with average earnings for the people who actually are or have been in the running for purchasing a housing in the first place.

    Good point. Much more sensible to measure "demand" based on the number of people who can afford property than population itself. But your "dole" comment suggests this is decreasing so surely that supports falls, not rises.

    However, it's not just people on the dole that can't buy at current prices. I'm lucky enough to earn a multiple of the average wage, hold a sizeable deposit and am pretty risk-neutral. On my reckoning (and the banks for now, long may that continue) I can't sensibly afford a 2 bed flat in South London. I suspect demand at current prices has been somewhat overstated by credit and speculation ..... 

    Report on 24 April 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Johnny5
    Love rating 11
    Johnny5 said

    Best article Harvey has ever written ? Pass me the bottle of whatever you are drinking !

    This is a poor article and doesn;t really say much we don't already know already.

    If property falls much more(and I doubt it) because people like Harvery have already forgotten to add the 30 percent devaluation of sterling into the equation....and possible high inflation and further falls of sterling in the future. If this quantative easing goes wrong, you watch everyone rush into a long term tangible aset like property, because property will self adjust to the future because it is a long term desirable asset.

    Wheelbarrows of devalued sterling will not.

    Report on 25 April 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Johnny5
    Love rating 11
    Johnny5 said

    oh and Gilo don;t you overcomplicate things. Why on earth would it be helpful to know the average of interest rates over the last 50 plus years ?

    If you ever bought a house you'd know that a few years of high interest rates is painful as as low ones makes it easy. Knowing the average is irrelevant.

    In addition aka what's happening now, not everybody pays the same rate, it depends on their deposit, equity et etc.

    Some are currently paying 0.01, some 1% some 2.5, some 6 percent or more. Are you studing economics ? because studying something doesn't prepare you for the reality of it.

    Report on 25 April 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • polyphemus
    Love rating 8
    polyphemus said

    Over-inflated prices were a result of the reckless over-supply of debt with which they were bought. Repeating that to 'get the market moving' is self evidently stupid. Without that fuel, prices must fall and stay lower.

    The question then is how to deal with negative equity and all the 'home owners' who can't move without a large cash injection. Should they (or their lenders) be bailed out at all? After all, they bought something and it fell in value - why should more prudent taxpayers bail them out?

    In my opinion they shouldn't - the reduction in interest rates should mean that the borrowers can make accelerated capital repayments, and the lenders should be advising them on that basis.

    There's no magic bullet - we should be reconciled to a period of austerity, and that doesn't mean subsidising people to pay inflated prices for property which will only perpetuate the problems.

    Report on 26 April 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Gilo1979
    Love rating 0
    Gilo1979 said

    @Johnny5 x2

    It sounds like we disagree. I suppose that's the thing about opinions.

    Interesting that you talk about investors rushing into property not owner-occupiers. This is exactly what I believe got us into this position. While I am sure there are people ready to do just this, I wonder if the yields and finance are available to make this worthwhile under the new reality we are facing.

    You mention the devaluation of sterling but doesn't this only make housing more affordable to overseas investors or a clever few in the UK? I agree we need to look at real falls not just nominal ones but I believe we should save that debate for inflation - and if wages do not keep pace with prices we'll have a whole different problem by then.

    My reason for taking an interest in average interest rates is that history tends to repeat itself. I agree this will not be what most people will actually pay. However, my point is that human nature means we tend to remember the good times (low interest rates) rather than the bad.  Combined with the financially naivety I see all around me I am concerned that there are too many people (investors and homeowners) who could not cope with even a relatively small rise in long term interest rates.

    Finally, since you asked, a little about me. I have previously owned a house. I am lucky enough to have sold it in Jan 08 and rented since for lifestyle reasons. In other circumstances I could easily be a homeowner now - maybe that's why I sympathise. And yes, I did study economics 10 years ago but have been living the "reality" ever since. It just turns out it wasn't so real...

     

    Report on 26 April 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Johnny5
    Love rating 11
    Johnny5 said

    Polywhatsit speaks of how to deal with helping with negative equity,  well if what some are talking of come to pass we could be looking at many who bought in the last 5 years owing twice what their property is worth. What exactly do you think many in this situation would do ? I'll tell you what they'll do ,give up the keys and file for insolvency because they;ll be clear in 5 years albeit not prob able to get another mortgage again even if they wanted one. Better to start again abroad methinks..

    In this scenario with no more bailouts possible the banks will take the hit and it could be enough to drive half the high street to the wall ! Mr Aren't I brilliant Harvery Jones misses this completely...

    Poly also mentions it was cheap credit that drove the market then forgets that actually now is a time of cheap credit if you can get it and it's getteing more available as the pattern for the cash coming on song is there. Even this govt knows not to let this happen which is why they have been leaning on the banks. The banks are their own worst enemy and would have brought about this scenario if they hadn't been forced.

    Gilo I can't believe you ? how can the devaluation of sterling not make housing here more attractive. We have gone from being one of the most expensive places to being nowhere ! Have you looked at prices in the Eurozone or OZ recently ? I don't mean new builds in Spain or Greece either, I am talking about proper town houses.It makes us look cheap now.

    History often repeats itself but I still can see no use for the median of interest rates over 50 years. What matters to homeowners is current affordability and an idea within a 5 to 10 year span of affordability. Anything more is just classroom stuff.

    Lastly although i didnt mention it most investors in property(residential) are owner occupiers myself included. These are  mostly in it for a home as it's alwyas the best way to put a roof over the head in the UK. To let the market fall apart as Harvey suggests will rob these people of their home and drive this country even further to ruin.

    Fortunately my opinion is bottom has been reached thanks to low rates making affordability swing back in.(any muppets with the 3 times income mantra please zip it, worst predictor of affordability and a 2 dimensioanl formula in a multi dimensional world).

    I agree Gilo many couldn't cope with substantial increase in rates, but rates unless inflation rears are likely to remain real low. If inflation rears actually property will in spite of this be a better bet as it will always be what it is and adjust to a value in the future(prvided you can hang on to it) as I said wheel barrows of devalued inflation affected sterling will not. AKA Weimar republic.

    These are uncertain times, but you have to live somewhere and where else is a good investment, GILTS, Stock, Pension funds.

    Brits love affair with property is not over by a long chalk

    Report on 26 April 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Karada_uk
    Love rating 1
    Karada_uk said

    The problem with letting house prices slide is that it is still devaluing the Toxic assets that have caused the problem in the first place. What value that is left in them is being lost in the decrease in value of the secured property and the devaluation of the currency.  Until that is stabilised the credit problems will continue.

    The other problem is that the Banks have to get back to doing KYC - Know Your Customer. The root of the problem is the marvellous system of Fortune-Telling that the banks rely on for everything and which has caused this mess and created the Toxic Debt in the first place.  This situation must be a clear indication that Credit Scoring does not work and is merely computerised Fortune-Telling.  It is time to ditch Gypsy Rose Experian at al. except for anti-fraud checking.

    Report on 26 April 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • wab-pcs
    Love rating 1
    wab-pcs said

    Fortunately I have paid off my house. However the value of a house is not of much concern to an owner who does not need to move and can afford ot pay the mortgage.

    Currently morgage rates are pretty good even if you are not on a variable rate. When we were paying off our mortgage during the seventies, eighties and nineties the best rate we ever had was 8% at the beginning. For the rest of the time it was higher and even reached 15%. Luckily inflation helped to as wages rose more or less in line with inflation so we could afford our payments.

    However it is now harder to get onto the ladder as house prices are much higher inrelation to salaries and as HJ says prices do need to fall.

    For new houses it is difficult toget costs down as new regulations each year push up building costs and these are not helped by the devaluing pound which raises import costs for quite a lot of the materials used in the build. Currently to get a reasonable buld quality complying with government ecotargets the price is is in the region of £1000 per square metre of usable space, then there is the cost of land and often other fees.

    Report on 26 April 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • andrewnight
    Love rating 0
    andrewnight said

    Not an expert but I have lived long enough to have some memory of interest rates over the last 50 years. 6% is not unusually cheap. 10% is very dear. Interest rates for savers are unusually low but rates for borrowers are on trend. The difference in borrowing 50 years ago and 5 years ago is not that it was dearer long ago - it was cheaper if anything. It is that it was much more difficult. We've gone back to that now to some extent. Mortgage suppliers and Bank managers (yes you would actually talk to the manager about a loan) would ask searching questions and demand real evidence of income. They would not have dreamt of lending more than 3-4 times income nor more that 75% of the value of the house.

    Report on 26 April 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • devallon
    Love rating 2
    devallon said

    Surprising how easy it is to want the market to fall further when you are renting ! The key surely to a future that doesn't make laods of money for one sector and bankrupt another is to manage the economy for a 'soft landing'. 

    Some government cash to free up the economy will help, some relaxation of credit scoring will help too. What we all have to learn to live with is no more accelerating house prices to fund lifestyles beyond our means.

    The bit that sticks in my throat though is the Banks having been bailed out are only lending to gold plated clients at extortionate rates - their margins are 3 or 4 times what they were 2 years ago - why should they expect to recover their balance sheets in 12 months ? They screwed up with reckless lending - they should be hurting along with the rest of us. Maintaining margins as before would not penalise the average person, and likewise the government should not penalise the Banks with lending rates that cripple them.

    Batten down the hatches by all means but pendulum politics and lending policy is playground stuff, not grown up economics. 

    The most important thing to do is get rid of Brown and his cronies and get some sense back into economic management.

    Report on 26 April 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • polyphemus
    Love rating 8
    polyphemus said

    @Johnny5 -

    I agree with much of what you say - property will come good and interest rate risk aside, is a good inflation hedge. It still needs to find its own level though.

    I did consider the possibility that some negative equity owners will just walk, but hopefully not in sufficient numbers to hurt the lenders materially beyond the scale we have already seen; and many who don't need to move can sit tight with manageable repayments and wait for things to come good.

    As to half the high street going bust - do you mean the banks? I don't think we should be bailing out any more banks in the way that we have - the depositors yes, and clearly some consideration needs to be given to the knock on effects if bondholders are to be dumped, but they have so far got off largely scot free and I hope somebody is working out how they can take some of the pain if it comes round again.

    Report on 26 April 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • matchmade
    Love rating 38
    matchmade said

    Harvey - I don't understand why you are obsessed with this "four times salary" (or is it three or 3.5x? Everyone has their favourite figure). Before 1914 90% of the population rented, and in many European countries, the majority of people rent for their whole lives. What makes the UK so special, ro this 4x figure so inevitable? It all depends on your base point of reference and a whole myriad of issues like the tax treatment of inheritances. the interest rate environment, the general availablility of investment capital on top of a salary multiple, and so on.

    Also, why do you say nothing about the supply side of the equation? With the Government now taking 1/3 of all houses at cost price off builders for "affordable homes", and with Section 106 council taxes now at £20,000 per 4-bedroom house, and with low house prices and ever-increasing building regulations on top of sky-high construction costs, it's simply not affordable for builders to build at the moment, unless they have a massive site where the land is a cheap proportion of the overall costs.

    Report on 26 April 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • jw2003
    Love rating 0
    jw2003 said

    I'm a first time buyer, in fact we managed to obtain a now extinct 90% mortgage through a major high street lender in February, so all this talk of the market sliding further does make for depressing reading but what does make me feel optimistic is that our mortgage is affordable even at it's current rate of 6.7%, in fact our mortgage is cheaper than our rent has been for the last 3 years so in that respect i do feel rather smug. I also have no intention of moving on quick and even if the market does slide further we paid on average 35% less than today's market value (it needs renovating which we are doing on a cash basis and have not borrowed further funds)

    If affording a home of your own is unachievable for so many now then perhaps time, resources and money could be spent on making private rentals a more secure and stable home for people thus relieving some of the demands on social housing.

    Report on 26 April 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Chancer9
    Love rating 2
    Chancer9 said

    Sounds right HJ. Pity some of the other contributors don't appear to have been living the same last 18 months.

    Comments about terrible bankers, who got members of the public overstretched. What did they do, go out and whey ley people and then force then to sign up for an over priced mortgage under pain of death. It is convenient to blame the bankers, but no-one mentions the fact that everyone has a choice. They can choose to over extend themselves or to do something different. Bankers do have a share of the blame but it's not " A big banker did it and ran away".

    The 3 - 4 times earnings ratios were there to help protect people and stop them from becoming overstretched. If this wasn't a factor the housing market would still be functioning normally. It is a factor becasue the point has been reached where increases in house prices were unsustainable. If this wasn't the case good old demand would keep them floating into the stratosphere.

    Unfortunately the correction needs to continued. While house prices may look cheap relative to last year or 2007, and interest rates are at a very low point, prices are still over valued. If they weren't over valued we would have the people who have been excluded from the housing market for the past two years piling in now, taking up the slack. Housing demand is still slack, could it be because prices are still too high. The problem is do we get a sharp short correction now or a gentle longer one. I am inclined to think a long one, as no-one wants to drop the price. The downside I fear is that property prices will go nowhere for the next five years until equilibrium takes place, ie earnings catch up with prices.

    The only ones wanting prices to resume their upward trend are investors, surveyors, estate agents and builders, vested interests. I can't see anyone shut out of the market due to affordability wishing prices to start climbing again. I recall visting an estate agent a few years ago to enquire what a particular house with offers over might fetch (as I was interested in buying as a home, not investment) only to be told he couldn't say, I would just have to throw money at it and hope for the best. Since then estate agents have made some decent money, but as with all things it come to an end. I am not enjoying the crash with glee, but have little sympathy for certain areas that have milked all they can from the past housing boom. A re-adjustment is taking place and as with the housing boom there are winners and loosers.

    Report on 26 April 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Johnny5
    Love rating 11
    Johnny5 said

    I must correct Karada_uk. The toxic assets are not linked to UK Housing stock. These are linked to derivatives that were linked to the NINJA mortgages in the US that were parcelled up and sold around the globe. Hence falls in UK housing are not affecting the valuation of these "assets"

    The Uk housing market is very different to the US in terms of space, supply etc etc. While repossesions here have risen this has been nothing thus far by comparision.

    If good old Harvey has his way and UK prices(i doubt it) really go down the plughole then as I said we would have our own toxic debt that would slit the throat of many lenders with no more bailouts possible or a virtual nationalisation of UK Banking.

    The banks( and I have 20 years experience selling to them) don't lend then they could bring about this Armageddon scenario. It's self fulfilling, fortunately lending is coming on song and it must for everybody's sake.

    Report on 27 April 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Johnny5
    Love rating 11
    Johnny5 said

    Oh and to quote my myself "The banks( and I have 20 years experience selling to them) don't lend then they could bring about this Armageddon scenario. It's self fulfilling, fortunately lending is coming on song and it must for everybody's sake"

    Please beware any articles on lovemoney or TMF by Cliff D'Arcy , serial renter who is a regular trying to talk property down with all the objectivity of a hyena. He wants your house for a fiver, no joke !

    Report on 27 April 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • russpw100
    Love rating 2
    russpw100 said

    Chancer9

    Investors, Estate Agents, Surveyors and Builders are NOT the only ones who want/need the housing market to recover! How about those thousands of older people who have bought family houses, have seen the family grow up and leave and are HOPING that the equity in their houses can be used to prop up the dreadful pension deficits we have! They are not greedy investors, just prudent people who would look forward to moving to a smaller property and then live out their twilight years using whatever cash difference they were previously hoping for. They have been hit THREE ways (Savings income had gone, Property Equity has gone and the State Pension is a joke!) - They also have a major problem finding a job to keep them going in this increasingly scarce job market when employers can be very choosy over who they select and invest in (and are not keen on taking anyone over 50)

    Report on 27 April 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • notsogreatbritain
    Love rating 2
    notsogreatbritain said

    I think Britain have an unhealthy obsession with money and property.

    Look around yourself, UK is full of obese, unhappy, stressed and agressive people. Most my collegues have grey hair before they reach their 30's.

    Is it really worth your health and happiness to be so money and property orientated?

    Scandinavians, with 55% tax have the highest level of lifequality and longevity in Europe, still their Economy is quite bad, but the people are not obsessed with money and property.

    Time to rethink

    Report on 27 April 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Johnny5
    Love rating 11
    Johnny5 said

    notsogreatbritain does have a point . However for the average Joe in this country he can only rely on himself to put a roof over his and his family's head. This country does not look after it's own people and will happily leave you to rot while scroungers who know the system claim everything they can and new scroungers queue up at Sangatte with possible criminal histories and prepare to claim whatever they can from a country they have made zilch contribution to.

    In Scandinavia, people are happy to contribute a great proportion of their salary in high tax because they get a decent social system, pension, schools and healthcare. Unlike the main Anglo Saxon 's the UK and US they are not so capitalist. It's a more commune style economy.

    Even Germany and France put their own people first with far superior social support, healthcare and pensions.

    Just stand by for the biggest outflux of the best of this country within the next 5 years. UK Plc I am not sure will ever recover... It's only because so many in the Uk are useless at languages it hasn't already happened and why so many want to go to Canada, Oz etc. As my German is proficient, (one of my best investments in myself), Germany is always an option for me because it's the only place apart from an english speaking country i can go to get a job and earn a living.

    As someone once said(who was a nurse) they feared growing old in this country ! and as notsogreatbritain pointed out, I don;t see the stress or worry in many foreigners that many in this country have to live with. Although I think it's vital for the housing market to recover in the Uk as it's the backbone of the economy. It would have been better had our market remained as the germans, however they have lovely tenant protection and a properly regulated renting sector. Here we make it up on the back of Gordon Brown's handkerchief which is why we want to own our own homes.

    First decent offer i get abroad and I'm off.

    Report on 27 April 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • ChrisH
    Love rating 0
    ChrisH said

    I totally agree with Harvey Jones. Our generation need to take the debt on board and not our children. The sooner house prices come down to sensible multiples of income and the sooner building societies go back to making mortgages more difficult to get, the better we will be. It is all about responsibility. We may be too late to return to old fashioned British values, but we need to instil similar values in all our younger generations and our newly immigrant populations.

    Cameron was talking about "thrift". I think he is going along the right lines here. I don't think we will ever recover from this labour overspend. They have left us virtually bankrupt and the sooner they are out the better.

    Report on 27 April 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Rufsaid
    Love rating 1
    Rufsaid said

    Harvey,

    I'd just like to question your maths a bit for the £500m scheme to support builders for mothballed part built houses.

    As I see it, the 2500 houses you suggest this will affect is based on each one getting £200k. This seems very high. My view is that the cost of houses is usually based on the land prices and the planning system. The actual cost of building is less than half the total cost.

    From this you could say that the government will fund 1/3 of total cost of building and get this to roughly £30k (If the cost of building is £90k based on 55% of your £200k is required for land and planning elements) per house and this then adds up to around 16.5k homes that could be affected or roughly 7%

    This does seem more realistic.

    Report on 27 April 2009  |  Love thisLove  1 love
  • supersol
    Love rating 1
    supersol said

    As I recall, motrgage rates were arond 4% in 1959, and started creeping up in 1964, rising to double figures by 1970. In the 1970s the rate fluctuated between about 10% and 17%, peaking in the middle of the decade. Mortgages were very hard to come by throughout all this period, and this remained the case in the early 1980s. In that decade, rates again peaked at 17% in 1981, but rapidly fell to around 10% to 12%, but then rising again to 15% by the beginning of 1990. On entry to the ERM rates fell to 14%, falling by half percent changes through the 1991/1992 recession to 10% as at 15/9/92. The next day base rate was raised to 12%, and again briefly to 15%, but the game was up on the ERM, and with one bound we were free. Base rate fell rapidly to 6%, and has never been higher than that ever since. Mortgages became very easy to get, and started to be at significantly higher rates than base rate.

    Report on 27 April 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • DAS
    Love rating 1
    DAS said

    All the key points ahe been aired, so I should just like to add the following.

    Many years ago I saw a graph (published by some 'pukka' UK source) of GDP per head v degree of home ownership.

    The trend was clear. The richer the country, the lower the degree ow ownership, so Switzerland was at or near the top end (wealthy, high percentage of rental), and the UK was near the bottom, I think 'undercut' only by Portugal at the time.

    I think the post-war problem in Britain for most people, the 'middle classes', was that there was practically no place to put one's savings and obtain a return to beat inflation. Property was the main way to protect one's capital.

    Personally I think that rapidly rising property prices are socially corrosive and divisive, trapping people geographically and socially.

    Report on 27 April 2009  |  Love thisLove  1 love
  • gjm
    Love rating 10
    gjm said

    It's easy to say "let prices fall". We bought our house 5 years ago - fixed rate, around 5% - and have worked and spent money on it since. In the interim period I have had one below inflation pay rises - 2%, and 2.2%. I don't earn a fortune, and while the cost of living has escaleted we've had to 'make do'.

    Obviously changing employer should be at the top of my to-do list, but this involves moving to a more expensive part of the country. The prospect of selling our house for less than we paid for it, despite spending £0000s on it, is not attractive. Lower house prices will certainly not help me in any way at all, either now or in the next few years.

    Selfish? Yes. But as has previously been noted here, the government aren't looking out for us so it's up to me.

    The country may benefit - eventually - but individuals will suffer.

    Report on 27 April 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • DAS
    Love rating 1
    DAS said

    I agree that rapidly falling prices in the present circumstances present their own probems.

    My personal solution would be to let prices get nearer to each other nationally (difficult with London with its international buyer base and large collection of exceptionally rich individuals) and let them 'tread water' till wages have caught up.

    I wish...

    Report on 27 April 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • nosbort
    Love rating 130
    nosbort said

    I think that in the short term Harvey is right and prices must and will fall considerably but as the money supply is being engineered by Darling/Brown to cause inflation (so that HM Govt. can afford to pay off what IT is borrowing), inflation will cause high interest rates and massive pay increases withing 3-5 years. The result of this will be that prices (though not values in real-terms) will increase again soon after that. Sadly, by that time everyone will have forgotten the current crash and as inflation and interest rates drop (after peaking at 15-20% again?) the same old bubble, boom and bust will start again.

    Report on 27 April 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • bimber
    Love rating 44
    bimber said

    Johnny5, are you Stainrider (from TMF) in disguise? You make the same mistakes as him and you "both" have no understanding of what Cliff D'Arcy writes about.

    One thing you say makes some sense but your analysis is all wrong: "UK Plc I am not sure will ever recover." How expensive are houses in Manhattan compared with Mali? Why do you think that is? As the UK gets poorer relative to other countries will its housing stock tend towards Mali or Manhattan?

    Personally I think prices have a way to go down and will not regain current earnings multiples for many years, and those earnings will be lower by international standards. The only way UK property is a good investment is if inflation wipes out the debt whilst interest payments rise more slowly than wages. Even if this happens (and it won't) there are better places for your money.

    Cheaper houses are a prerequisite for long-term prosperity in the UK. How can we compete with India if it takes 3 Indian wages just to pay 1 UK mortgage? We cannot continue with housing as expensive as it is, and if something cannot go on forever it will stop.

    Report on 27 April 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Johnny5
    Love rating 11
    Johnny5 said

    It's only wrong according to your perspective Bimber. You strike me as one of those not interested in debate as you are so sure of your your own opinion, never a good trait.

    At least Harvey is sharing his honest opinions. Many on TMF have noted as have I D'Arcy's lack of objectivity regarding property which is downright bad journalism and unprofessional. I have suggested to TMF that he is the single Fool writer who should avoid property discussion because of his bias.

    You say cheaper houses are a pre-requisite for long term prosperity in the UK,. This might once have been appropriate but no longer and you turn a blind eye to the carnage that would result from this and the damage to this country. We don't have to and can't compete with India we must do what we do best and they do what they do best. 3 indians to pay 1 uk mortgage is completely irrelevant and i can't see your point at all.

    There is also a difference between something stopping and something catapaulting 10 years back down the line. As opposed to most posters here I struggle to follow any of your views.

    As someone who has spent a lot of time in Europe and rented in Germany for extended periods I have noted the special relationship that Brits have with property in comparision with our european counterparts. You can rent quite happily in Germany and buy if you have the means. The lack of control and protection in the Uk versus Germany is extraordinary as is the complete reversal of Renting versus owner occupiers between tohe 2 countries. Germans never understand our obsession with buying but they do when it's explained that often in the Uk, ownership is the best course to be master of your own destiny. The situation that has reared it's head here recently of tenants being thrown out because the landlord didn't pay the mortgage wouldn't and couldn't happen in Deutschland.

    Bimber I think you are entrenched in your views of massive further falls in property and won't budge from this regardless of debate. I don't know what is going to happen for sure but I am sizing up the situation and trying to be as objective as I can in order that I can call it impartially.

    There are negative points that worry me but then there are positives regarding property. Positives are low interest rates currently, shortage of properties on the market in many areas as many won;t sell in this climate, high rental costs versus ownership. The possibility that investment wise cash may no longer be king if inflation returns and as i have mentioned property will adjust to future values while cash will not. Bimber himself alludes to this. The British love affair with property is not over as far as i can see by a long chalk.

    Concerns on my part are increasing unemploment and high interest rates in the future, that could be trouble...however i think the other factors indicate that actually we have levelled out. Forget those whose mantra i 3.5 times earning for property prices , most homeowners look at affordability i.e. what't the mortgage going to cost them, they only worry about earnings multiples to get mortgages and as many have substantial equity/deposits/inhertited money this has always distorted the prices picture versus earnings multiples. Earnings multiples is the poorest frmula to determine house prices i ever saw, but I'm sure Bimber disagrees, but i in this case am adamant he is wrong.

    Report on 27 April 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Concord UK
    Love rating 4
    Concord UK said

    One of the factors that has kept house prices high in the UK seems to me to be the relucatnce to build on greenfield sites for fear of losing our land heritage. In fact there is much more land in the UK than is generally imagined.

    Perhpas if the planning authorities backed by government allowed more building and the paranoid planning constraints on using a few percent more of the land were scrapped, there would be more and more affordable housing in all sectors of the market. We have the land, we just will not part with it. Hence people who do get new houses are condemned to paying a fortune or having small gardens and minimal parking space. Most have cars, most have children but the UK prefers to heavily restrict ladn usage. It makes no sense to me. It would not be humane to cull the population so why not accommodate them? Measures to reduce the birth rate using financial incentives could also be put to work to reduce demand instead of encouraging it.

    Report on 27 April 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Johnny5
    Love rating 11
    Johnny5 said

    Trouble is Concord it's not us Brits having too many kids it's immigration putting upward pressure on population. And there's too much of the population in the south and we really can't go building on what's left of our Greenbelt in the south.

    It's never that simple anyway, building lots of new houses puts pressure on infrastructure, roads, schools, etc etc. In addition with new building regs and the housing market lack of confidence and falls, builders have almost shut up shop and aren;t even building on the parcels of land that they permission for.

    A recent poster fighting back against the property doomsters explained the cost of building new homes and the fact they often have to give a third of a plot over to social housing. It's fast approaching the point where the value does not exceed build costs in some areas.

    Report on 27 April 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • HomerJay
    Love rating 0
    HomerJay said

    absolutely right that house prices need to fall. houses have become too much of an investment and buy to let people have supported a rental market where it costs too much to rent, and service is really bad, driving people to want their own house even more.

    the government should not have put all their money into the banks. for me it is like buying something off the internet and then having the seller come back and say there is a problem ...but if you send another £xxx we can put it right.

    we should let the housing market find its level, and encourage it by making it more difficult to buy to let.

    Report on 27 April 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • bimber
    Love rating 44
    bimber said

    Johny5,

    You say that I don't want a debate yet you ignore a direct a question I put to you. You single out Cliff D'Arcy as lacking objectivity yet anyone who lives in a building has a stake in the property market. Perhaps you don't like Cliff's articles because he's been right and you have been wrong? He made a good call in 2005, judging the housing market to be overvalued, so even though his timing was a little off his track record should earn him some respect. You suggest that he does not write his honest opinions, yet he put his own money where his mouth is. If people had listened to him instead of buying in the last 3 or 4 years they'd be in a better position now.

    If you can't see why lower costs result in a more productive economy then consider this: I have no mortgage to pay but the person who moved in down the road recently will have to pay about £600/month. This means that (including tax) I can charge about £1000/month less for my services and have the same quality of life. It doesn't matter that my neighbour is doing what he does best if I can do it cheaper - he'll not get the work. The theory of comparative advantage suggests that we should all do what we do best, but that is measured by what we get paid for it. If someone undercuts us then we have to move down the chain. We in the West have wasted our capital on consumption and housing bubbles whereas in India and China they have built factories and invested capital in productive assets. This means that they can do the high added value work which we used to do in the west, whilst undercutting westerners. As they take more of this work their capital base will increase and they will take even more of it, whilst we will have to make do with the lower-value work. This process will make them richer and us poorer, so the Mali/Manhattan comparison stands - the higher the income, the higher the house price that can be supported. House prices in Mali are lower than in Manhattan because the link with earnings is not a myth.

    Whilst the UK gets relatively poorer, property here is a bad investment. Foreigners will not jump into the UK property market just because sterling falls, because the returns will be measured in sterling too. They'd be better off investing in Asian REITS and forgetting the UK until our debt level and cost base are down to a level where the economy can outperform. UK residents should also be less keen property. If you want to live here then by all means get something you can afford and get a fixed rate. Traditionally though, people have stretched themselves to get on and move up the property ladder. The ladder in future will rise more slowly than foreign stock markets so the canny UK home buyer will no longer stretch themselves in the UK property market. They know that extra bedroom will not be out of reach next year so they will suffice with a property which meets their immediate needs and will save some of the extra mortgage cost and invest it overseas. This will leapfrog them over people who have a love affair with the property market.

    Report on 27 April 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • spider589
    Love rating 4
    spider589 said

    A bit late for these comments, as I have only just opened this email, but I would like to add a couple of comments please,

    First, nothing is free in this world, and all this "magic porridge pot" house price inflation of the last few years, where people have been able to fund their holidays, home improvements, new cars etc out of the "profits" of buying their home was always going to come home to roost eventually.

    Second, I fail to understand how first time buyers on "normal" incomes, which in my area of the West Midlands means £300 a week if they are lucky, can possibly get on the house buying ladder unless there is at least something affordable for them - and that suggests we may have more price reductions to come yet, or is the housing market only to be accessible to those on executive salaries?

    third, to answer the question of historic interest rates, though it may seem preposterous now, when I bought in the 15.5% mortgage rate days of the mid-1980's, my mortgage was set at 11.2% on a level-payment plan, which was generally thought by the industry to be the level it could be reasonably expected to average out at over a 25-year period. This was based on the fact (at that time) that inflation historically was likely to average out at around 8%, and that mortgage rates were always likely to be around 3.5% above the rate of inflation. This of ourse explains why buying a house really used to be such a good idea, because if you start off with a 95% mortgage on the house you have to really stretch to afford, with an 8% pay rise every year, it didn't take many years before you could look at your mortgage outgoings as a much smaller proportion of your income, hence buying was a no-brainer compared with renting, if you could afford it!

    Finally, just a thought which may change the complexion of the property market altogether, if you were the government and had a debt which was so crippling you were going to have to tax people to kingdom come to even scratch the surface of it, what "enemy" would suddenly be the best friend you ever had? Just as a 95% mortgage went from crippling to piffling in a few years, a few hundred billion might not look so bad after a good dose of inflation!!

    Report on 27 April 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Hope
    Love rating 1
    Hope said

    One of the number of reasons property in England became subsequently over-valued was the ridiculous Conservative removal of any Tenancy protection when they repealed the main protective Rent Act protections in 1989.

    Like many other protections removed by the 1980s Conservative Governments. This let the market rip, with all and sundry wanting to make a fast buck at someone else's expense.

    And yes, since 1997 the Labour Government instead of repealing and turning back the worst of these Conservative excesses have been content to reap the tax revenues from inflated transactions.

    And no thank you - we do not want the Tory/Conservatives back in again causing even more damage than they did throughout the 1980s mainly and in the 1990s!!

    That's why everyone else in the world except the Brits, own our water, our electricity, our gas and every other one of our natural resources. Shame on you Labour for letting that state of affairs continue and so impoverishing the ordinary man and woman in the British street!!!

    Report on 28 April 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Chris2685
    Love rating 2
    Chris2685 said

    Wait, Harvey, You think it costs a builder £200,000 to build an average sized home? I doubt it.

    Report on 28 April 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Chris2685
    Love rating 2
    Chris2685 said

    Sorry, just noticed Rufsaid brought up the same point!

    Report on 28 April 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Concord UK
    Love rating 4
    Concord UK said

    Johny 5 makes some very good points. I agree that the 'social housing' imposition on builders is a nightmare of bureaucracy. I also agre that the infrastructure is sadly lacking in many areas.

    I agee in part on the availability of land. The South East is overdeveloped becasue of the unfathomable over-centralisation on London and the home counties. However, land is more readilty avaiiable in the South West but bureaucrats in local government want everything concentrated in towns. Planning permission for building outside of the small towns is hard to get. The consequence is that the same councils (transport lot) then cite congestion in towns as a problem and spend millions subsidising empty buses on the futile premise that this will stop people using their cars. It doesn't of course and why should it?

    Use of a few more percent of the masses of land outside the towns in the South West for housing and supermarkets, shopping malls etc would be no more than a dent in the vast open spaces but local government planners always seem to want to force people into towns to live and shop. Why overcrowd and gum up the towns when out of town homes and facilities are much easier for most people.

    I totally agree on the lack of incentive to build for the range of reasons discussed but low levels of building at one point in time only result in inflated house prices when the economy eventually picks up...after the demise of this disasterous government...the very ones who cause the local planners to behave as they do through the Planning and 'Sustainable' Transport' Laws and Guidelines.(read don't mend roads or build new ones and concentrate on overcrowding small towns to penalise the majorty of residents)

    Report on 29 April 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Concord UK
    Love rating 4
    Concord UK said

    Hope:

    The Conservatives allowed many people to buy their own homes, a point you ignore. The problems relate entirley to this socialist government who as you say wanted revenues from the housing market but failed to secure its medium term future for the people. As soon as this recession was a whiff on the horizon, stamp duty should have been abolished.

    Looney Green impositions on prices and direct taxes have just made things so much worse for the British people...but hey, whatever collects most revenue to waste and build more and more social housing and subsidise more public transport all around.

    Socialist aim: get everyone living in council houses and riding on public transport and bikes so we can be just like their failed Communist Bloc role models. As with the communist Bloc, everyone except the leaders...Two Jags Prescott does OK as do most of the hypocrites in Nu Labour.

    Report on 29 April 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Johnny5
    Love rating 11
    Johnny5 said

    Bimber, I think your logic is completely flawed, in fact I'm sorry (from my humble perspective)there isn't any logic whatsoever as far as I'm concerned. I'm not trying to be rude but i can't follow your thought process at all. You have a massive tendency to overcomplicate and bring in factors in this case cross-border that's are not useful in the slightest.

    As you are so convinced you know it all and nobody else who has a contrary opinion can be right just carry on.

    The problem with this type of approach is you don;t learn anything new. I look at these articles to learn and glean other's opinions. In many cases I see an opinion and see the logic and gain new knowledge. In other cases I see things that i disagree with and i state things as I see them. However I don;t have all the answers or a crystal ball. You seem to have so much conviction in the fact you "know" , the irritation of a counter viewpoint is almost palpable. You make statements such as " they know they will get an extra bedroom cheaper next year" uh wrong...noone can know as the future isn't set....you call it your way, i'll call it mine. It seems with you it's all definite statements "know" "will"

    I try to remain impartial but you are "right" and I am "wrong" before the result is in. That's not democracy or debate.

    Just because D'arcy got it right once doesn't mean he's right again or that his opinion can be trusted because of a hidden agenda that is all too apparent.

    If everybody had listened to him they'd be better of would they ? Was he as vocal about getting out of the market as he has been negative on property ever since. And anyway they wouldn't because a mass sell off is a "bear market" Plus why should everybody listen to him ? We don't have to.....

    Finally just because one man doen't have a mortgage to pay, doesnt mean he will charge less for the same job. He will likely sell his services at market rates. Many regardless of the outgoings will charge more/less for the same work. Some to get more work, some with the intention of making more from fewer jobs. If he's in India he can't come and do you patio full stop !

    Report on 29 April 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • 2ndtimebuyer
    Love rating 0
    2ndtimebuyer said

    I disagree.

    As someone looking to move into a bigger house to start a family our falling house price is making our move impossible.

    The equity in our house has dropped but at the same time the banks want us to raise bigger than ever deposits to secure a decent mortgage rate.

    Now if the banks start dishing out decent mortgage rates again at 90% LTV fair enough let house prices fall, but we can't continue to be squeezed from both sides.

    Report on 01 May 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • peepobaby
    Love rating 49
    peepobaby said

    The key word is greed.

    Report on 01 May 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • davidfree007
    Love rating 0
    davidfree007 said

    Sorry but I dont agree with the greed thing. For some yes, but most people just want a secure future, a most of us believe that a house will provide that.

    Problem we have also is that we are competing with each other. Renters not on the housing ladder want prices to fall so that they can afford somewhere to live. But as soon as they have somewhere, they no longer want prices to fall or stay the same, they want them to rise.

    So wont the cycle just end up repeating itself, even if prices do fall.

    I actually dont expect prices to fall that far. On the grape vine I have heard many solicitors are actually busier than ever. Why. People who are cash rich, but now wary of banks, buying up cheap properties to rent out in student towns as they feel their money is safer doing that 

    Report on 01 May 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Kalifornication
    Love rating 0
    Kalifornication said

    My fiancee and I have lost more than £22,000 we used as a deposit and our house is already worth less than it's mortgage.

    We are due to remortgage at the end of the year and I am very concerned that we will be unable to get a mortgage to cover the amount outstanding leaving us trapped.

    While a massive housing crash may benefit some of you, especially those of you who have the funding to invest, it will just make things worse for us. 

    Report on 01 May 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Fairy
    Love rating 17
    Fairy said

    I know I am being selfish, but I am always happy to hear house prices are falling, along with most of my firends and colleagues. At the age of 25 my parents were easily homeowners. Now at the same age myself I do not stand a chance. It is not that I do not have a good job. As a nurse i take home an average salery. However in my area (Surrey) I cannot even get a large enough mortgage to buy a studio flat, let alone put together the deposit. Even key worker schemes i could only just afford a one bedroomed flat - again if I could get together a deposit. Most of my friends are in the same position. Even if myself in my partner, who is in the police, bbought together we would still struggle to get a mortgage to buy a house, and of course at our age having savings of over £20,000 for a deposit is a laughable thought.

    Report on 01 May 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • MinxCat
    Love rating 6
    MinxCat said

    I too agree with all that has been said. We have been encouraged to become a nation of greedoids (made up word by me don't look up in dictionary). I left home at age 17 and with a modest salary purchased a flat. Since then I have become married with children and live on a modest salary in a modest size house even though at one point both my husband and me were raking in the cash. A realistic house price and a realistic mortgage back in 1998 has made us one of the lucky ones with loads of equity in our house - like it should be after all these years. When are people going to wise up and start learning a little about finance and how the economy works. Just because the bank says you can have £500K does'nt mean you can afford it, especially when the going gets tough. Forget about money and think about what really makes you happy. We need to educate our future generation. 

    Report on 01 May 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • chasbmw
    Love rating 5
    chasbmw said

    looked at in inflationary adjusted terms property may not be such a cast iron investment as people seem to think, the last property boom peaked in 1989, in inflation adjusted terms this value took until 2002 to be regained, given that average prices are heading towards 2004 levels, then we may soon see values back down to late 80s values. 

     If you treat property as an investment then you do have to get your timing right, but unfortunatly unlike shares you can't dispose of property quickly or easily if the market turns against you.

    People also need to remember that in an deflationary environment, debt is real debt and will have to be paid off in very real money.this is the downside of low interest rates..............................If inflation does take off then that is the time to load yourself with debt and to buy property, I just don't think that we are there yet!

    Report on 01 May 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • matchmade
    Love rating 38
    matchmade said

    There is a lot of misinformation in this thread about how much it costs to build new houses. A typical build cost is £1000/m2, so a modest three-bedroom detached house with an integral garage sized 110m2 (1166 sq ft) typically costs £110,000 to build. The next big cost is the land, which since 1945 has typically been around the same cost as the construction (one-third to build, one-third for the land, one-third for planning and all the other costs, plus some profit), so another £110,000 there. Obviously the land cost varies with demand, and will be less on average for a large development; however land is very scarce, even in a recession, because government policy refuses to allow green-field development. On top of this the local council's Section 106 "roof tax" for local infrastructure will be about £12,000 (£20K for a four-bed house). Then there are the cost for planning, architect, estate agents, arboriculturalist (trees), maybe a bat survey, a consultant to test the "leakniess" of the build, and so on - probably at least £20K for those.

    If the builder is building more than 15 houses, he has to sell 1/3 of those as "affordable homes" to a housing association, who will only pay the construction cost. The "affordable" land and other costs have therefore to be covered by the remaining 2/3 of the houses for private sale, so this increases the cost of the land and other costs for them by 50%. Net price for a private sale on a small- to medium-size development that has had to give away 1/3 of the site as affordable homes: £110K to build, £12K local tax, £30K fees (150% multipl), £165K for the land (ditto) gives a total of £317K.

    A large development will cost less because the builder has economies of scale to push down the construction cost and will probably get the land for less, especially if government rules oblige him to cram lots of houses onto the site (there are minimum figures so it's very difficult for builders to provide large gardens now, irrespective of the cost).

    Report on 01 May 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • chasbmw
    Love rating 5
    chasbmw said

    Matchmade,

    it is likely that in the current climate builders will be able to reduce both social housing targets and sec 106 costs by claiming that the developement is unviable. The land cost is the main variable, but has very substantially reduced since 2007.

    What builders really want is for house price to stabilise, they they can start to build houses again, they will pay less for the land, but really all they are looking for is a reasonable chance of getting their 20% return.

    Report on 01 May 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Bobski
    Love rating 20
    Bobski said

    Wondered why my post was pulled?

    Report on 01 May 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • qwert1
    Love rating 0
    qwert1 said

    Disagree - particularly with this stupid 4 x salary you mention - I am disappointed you have fallen into this stupid stupid idea. example: client 1 & 2 both employed by the same company doing the same job & on exactly the same wage (say £25000) - both can therefore borrow £100000....... however 1 of them pays "unofficial" child maintenance of £750 p/m - this SHOULD mean he can borrow less but under 4 x salary which YOU alude to enables both to borrow the same!!

    How do we put this right - everyone should be made to see an Independenrt Mortgage Adviser & they should ascertain "AFFORDABILITY"!!

    One other thing - prices have bottomed out & will rise quickly as soon as 95% mortgages return as there is a MASSIVE shortage of housing!!   

    Report on 01 May 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • adb
    Love rating 0
    adb said

    Houses are worth what people are willing and able to pay.

    People look at the house they think they should have and if they could not afford it, prices are too high.

    In the mean time they carry on living in a smaller house, or rent.

    There is no housing shortage - in that people are actually sleeping in streets, and that probably has not been the case since WW2

    The price of housing has risen.

    This is partly because we have been able to borrow more per pound of mortgage repayment (low interest rates).

    Another part is that we get paid more and relatively, the non-housing costs has not risen as fast, or fallen (clothes, food, cars take up less of our income than they did 10 years ago).

    I think the market is falling for three main reasons

    Problems getting as big a loan as the borrower would like

    Fear that the you (the borrower) will not have a job in a years time

    No-one wants to buy something that will be thousands cheaper in a year

    The really interesting question is

    Given that prices are fallng and people are spending less on the house, what are they spending more on?

    Holidays?

    Savings?

    Drink?

    Report on 01 May 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • matchmade
    Love rating 38
    matchmade said

    chasbmw - in my area, local councils and housing associations are refusing to accept claims by builders for reduced Section 106 contributions or social housing based on affordability: they say barefecedly that builders will just have to accept reduced profit margins and contest line by line a builder's estimate of costs. They are also demanding that S106 is paid up-front at the point of applying for planning, and the developer will lose the money if he or she gets planning permission but then can't get mortgage funding. This has happened to me three times now - and the one time I tried to contest my S106 based on affordability, I was treated like a criminal for having the cheek to do this - the bureaucracy and the insistence on justifying every penny of expenditure just becomes exhausting and debilitating. Developers are seen as cash cows and the scum of the earth at the same time - the council can take its own sweet time deciding its criteria and spendings months evaluating a proposal, while the developer is left nursing sites and trying to survive.

    Also, it's easy to say that the price of land has come down, but that's only for the few sites where someone needs to sell. Most of my sites with development potential are currently blocked because the landowner refuses to sell at reduced values - they still expect to get 2007 prices, and say "prices will always recover" and that they're prepared to wait until that happens. Landowners will always be advised by lazy surveyors that they should get 1/3 of the output value, and of course the S106 is a tax on development, isn't it, not something the landowner should expect to factor in when calculating a realistic price for their land. They treat it as a straight tax on developer's final profits, like corporation tax, when in fact it's part of the actual build package.

    Of course I don't have to accept the landowner's price, but when someone knows they have a good development site, with so few other alternatives available, landowners will hold on like grim death until prices "recover" to their expectations.

    Report on 02 May 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • chasbmw
    Love rating 5
    chasbmw said

    Where i Live there seems to be an acceptance that viability is an issue that needs to be considered when considereing sec 106 payments, I think even planning officers are getting the message that the market is really bad and that if the planners are going to meet their targets for house nos they will have to make some concessions.

    Landowners will just have to get used to lower prices for land, simple really , but as with many house owners in the current market It is only bankruptcy,death and divorce that will force thenm to sell.

    Chas

    Report on 02 May 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • jobloggs
    Love rating 0
    jobloggs said

    I too believe house-prices should never have gotton so inflated. I was expecting the bubble to burst about the same time as it did in Australia (about 5 years ago now).

    When it didn't, we decided to go for it and bought our house 3 and a half years ago. Prices (rather, valuations) in the area now indicate that, although we put approximately 30% down as a deposit, the property would only be marketed at around the current (lower) stamp duty threshold. After solicitors fees etc, we could not make a penny out of it (if indeed we actually found a buyer at this price).

    My fear is that if (when) interest rates rise, we will not be able to keep up with them, and ultimately we will lose our house! Needless to say we hang in there for the timebeing, but it does feel as though we might be hanging onto a sinking ship.

    From what I've read in the other posts, this doesn't seem to be anyone else's concern. You must all have loads of equity in your properties! So anyway, I'm just speaking up for anyone else out there who may be in a similar situation to us.

    Ultruistically, lower property prices ARE a good thing (there's hope that our little boy may be able to afford his own property one day - when his turn comes), but the reality is, we won't be able to move from our tiny little house for the indefinite future - if indeed we don't get repossessed at some time in the future!

    J-B

    Report on 02 May 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Hope
    Love rating 1
    Hope said

    Concord uk I do not ignore thefact that many people were empowered to purchase houses by the Conservative Governments of the 1980/90s. The point you have missed is that many of these people were unable to actually afford to go on and complete their purchases, with irregular and low paid employment many were repossessed, sold on to unscrupulous and often illegal immigrant buyers, leading to ghetto areas and residents ending up homeless or in the expensive private rented sector.

    And don't forget the revenues from the sales of these houses were scooped up by the Conservative Governments to give the wealthy more tax breaks and were not reinvested in more social housing. Hence the shortage of affordable housing, forcing more and more people needing to buy to be actually able to afford a roof over their and their family's heads.

    So there was no putting money away for rainy days for Local Councils and with no Government funds for social housing, Councils turned to the S106 agreements and the requirements for Developers to provide some social or affordable housing.

    And the Cons Govts having given away the money made from housing and our natural resources sales, left nothing for future Govts to turn back the tides of the Cons Govts' profligacies and nothing to invest in the infrastructure of this country. Possibly one of the reasons why the Labour Govts did not attempt to turn back the tide of waste with which you appear so comfortable causing housing prices to roar away. Still no excuse for the Labour Govts' subsequent failures to reverse the removals of Tenant protections!!

    Should such protections be reversed, investors would not be so keen on residential properties and prices would start to fall as the disinterest begins, when the jewel is not quite so flashy. Of course, recent genuine homeowner/buyers would also suffer from lack of mobility to larger homes for families or to move areas for jobs, that is if there are still any new jobs out there, for the middle classes.

    Report on 03 May 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Strat 60s
    Love rating 0
    Strat 60s said

     What an exellent article. Hello! all you smarter younger people who can see the bigger picture now in your lives? What has happened in the last few yrs should never have been allowed to get so out of hand.

     And besides Gordon Brown turning a blind eye to all what was going on in the city because all he his really interested in his own delusions of grandeur, there is another mayor factor that we need to sort out that people seem to have over looked and its the TV media.

     Why are we putting up with these same cheap and nasty housing programes everyday and night. These bloodyminded presenters and celebs alike who wont accept defeat are still unbeliebably trying to push the same old obesseion that they mainly created in the first place.

     Why does any one need to be shown round a house anyway? let alone by a couple of over excited adults who then press them to make their minds up. Where do they find these people? and even if some of them are plants we dont need this carry on because there are plenty of naive first timers out there who could very easily tip the balance into spoiling what needs to happen ie a proper correction of at least 40%

     Those who have got more sense and control need to get at these Tv people and complain like i have done. It needs many many more of you to make the noise they can hear aloud! I can't do any more. If they are unapossed and allowed to carry on they will take us all right back into another crazy stampede. If I had my way I would sack them all! 

     Fortunatly I have the cash to start making offers but only if I can knock another 20% off the the current price making a 40% overhaul offer.You younger people will never get another great chance like this again to keep your offers low. Once the media and Tv start spouting off about green shoots appearing the panickers and naive's will let us all down badly. Mark my words if you dont get your act together this will no doubt happen. Houses are for living in not to buy and sell like cars.

    Report on 03 May 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • FireBlade
    Love rating 25
    FireBlade said

    is peepobaby incapable of writing either-

    a) more that one sentence

    b) a half decent post?

    The evidence doesn't look good so far.

    Report on 03 May 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Hudges
    Love rating 5
    Hudges said

    As ever, this sort of discussion tends to be a disclosure of partisan views, with a few people debating the real issues in between. Thanks Matchmade for your input on building costs. They add real numbers to the debate.

    According to your figures a modest 3 bedroom detached house with garage would cost £317,000 at current market values. Presumably at the the builder makes a fair margin, as they should. If we also include property valuations on multiples of people's earnings suggested above of say 3.5, then this could be afforded by someone earning £81,500 (after including 10% deposit). To me this price still sounds on the high side, as my guess is that someone earning over £80k would expect a stightly bigger property. So my guess is that land prices, which are really the only true variable in the equation, still need to fall.

    What is also useful to this debate are average earnings and average property prices. However, caution must be taken as my guess is that the size of the 'average' property has reduced, as homes have become smaller, and the proprtion of flats has increased. So today's average property price multiple probably need to be inflated still further. Figures I have found today give UK average property price at £199,654 and UK average earnings of £24908 which I make a multiple of 8. Assuming that the above building costs are reasonable, then this would suggest that land prices are far higher than the figures suggested.

    You may have noticed from my other posts that I am a firm believer that house prices are still too high. I have yet to hear of an argument that supports high property prices being good for the economy. Low house prices however, will allow us to compete in a variety of industries where we have been previously priced out, and force lower housing costs alloing people to actually save for their retirement, rather than think that the value in their house will keep them.

    I do, however, believe that people should concentrate on affordability, though affordability of the amount you borrow, not the amount that you currently pay. I do not believe that people shoud be allowed to borrow more than 2.5 to 3 times earnings, because they will not be able to afford the interest when rates increase, and increase they will when the effects of quantitative easing begin to drive inflation.

    The Government should consider the future as well as the present. A good housing market is one where houses are selling at a good rate, not one where the prices are rising dramatically. Estate agents can earn more from selling lots of houses at affordable prices rather than a few at unsustainable prices. They may have to work harder for their commissions, but they might realinse that things have been a little easy in the past.

    Report on 05 May 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves

Post a comment

Sign in or register to post a reply.

Our top deals

Credit card
company
Balance transfers rate and period Representative
APR
Apply
now

Barclaycard 27Mth Platinum Visa

0% for 27 months (2.98% fee) Representative 18.9% APR (variable) Apply
Representative example: assumed borrowing of £1,200, representative 18.9% APR (variable). Purchase rate 18.9% PA (variable). BT fee reduced from 3.9% to 2.98% (T&Cs apply).

Barclaycard 26Mth Platinum Visa

0% for 26 months (2.47% fee) Representative 18.9% APR (variable) Apply
Representative example: assumed borrowing of £1,200, representative 18.9% APR (variable). Purchase rate 18.9% PA (variable). BT fee reduced from 3.5% to 2.47% (T&Cs apply)

NatWest Platinum MasterCard

0% for 26 months (2.65% fee) Representative 18.9% APR (variable) Apply
Representative example: assumed borrowing of £1,200, representative 18.9% APR (variable). Purchase rate 18.95% PA (variable).
W3C  Thank you for using The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse