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Get ready for the housing crash part II

Cliff D'Arcy
by Lovemoney Staff Cliff D'Arcy on 06 October 2009  |  Comments 71 comments

After the usual `spring bounce', what's next for property prices? Here are five reasons to fear the future...

According to the Halifax House Price Index (HHPI), the average price for a UK home peaked at just over £200,000 in the third quarter of 2007. Here's how sharply they've fallen since then:

House prices go down...

Quarter

House

price (£)

Quarterly

change (%)

Q3 2007

200,623

N/A

Q4 2007

196,002

-2.3

Q1 2008

191,852

-2.1

Q2 2008

186,958

-2.6

Q3 2008

175,764

-6.0

Q4 2008

164,225

-6.6

Q1 2009

158,359

-3.6

Q2 2009

158,892

0.3

Source: Halifax House Price Index; seasonally adjusted

As you can see, prices fell for six quarters in a row, before bottoming out in the first quarter of this year. The second half of last year was particularly brutal, with prices falling by 2% a month. In 18 months, the price of a home plunged by more than a fifth (21%), losing £42,264 on average.

...and then rebound

However, as happens almost every year (except in 2008), we've enjoyed a 'spring bounce', when prices move upwards as winter ends.

Halifax reported a climb of 0.8% in August -- the fourth monthly rise this year. Nevertheless, house prices in August 2009 remain a tenth (10%) lower than in August 2008.

This yearly rebound has led many relieved housing gurus to predict an imminent end to the crash which began two years ago with the credit crunch. However, I'm not convinced. After all, in the previous housing crash, house prices didn't hit a low for more than six years, with prices falling by more than a third in some regions.

Hence, in my view, we're not even halfway through our burst bubble, which is why I have no plans to buy a house before 2011 at the earliest.

Here are five reasons for my reluctance to climb back onto the property ladder:

1. Credit conditions

After being bailed out by taxpayers, our battered banks made a promise to the Prime Minister and Chancellor that they would lend more to homebuyers. Alas, the latest quarterly Credit Conditions Survey from the Bank of England shows quite the opposite.

In fact, credit conditions actually tightened in the three months to mid-September, with the cost of home loans rising and availability falling.

However, corporate credit (lending to businesses) is improving, with rates coming down and availability improving.

All this suggests that the banks are happier to lend to businesses than to homebuyers. Although lenders have failed to keep their promise, they do expect to loosen their mortgage-lending criteria in the final quarter of this year.

Let's see if this actually happens.

In summary, given that the availability of 'easy credit' is essential for a healthy housing market, recent credit trends suggest that we have a long way to go yet.

2. Interest rates

The one thing -- the single biggest prop -- providing support for homeowners and house prices is low interest rates. A year ago, the Bank of England base rate stood at 5%; for the past six months, it has been 0.5%. This is the steepest fall in the base rate in the Bank's 315-year history.

As the base rate has plunged, so too has the cost of variable-rate home loans, sending mortgage payments sharply lower. Sadly, mortgage rates haven't fallen as steeply as the base rate, because lenders have taken the opportunity to massively increase their profit margins.

Of course, low mortgage rates mean better affordability, which is a key factor influencing the property-buying decision. The big problem as I see it is that, for the base rate, the only way is up. After all, we're within two quarter-point cuts of a zero base rate, so there's not much left in the tank.

Hence, when the base rate eventually begins its upward climb (not expected before late 2010), millions of mortgage borrowers will suffer severe 'payment shock'. For me, this could be the trigger for another downward leg in property prices.

3. Personal debt

My other big worry is the massive increase in personal debt since house prices began to take off in 1995. As you can see from the following table, growth in personal debt has far outstripped rising personal income:

Year

Income

(£bn)

Debt

(£bn)

Debt/

Income (%)

1995

504

460

91

1996

537

489

91

1997

573

522

91

1998

599

562

94

1999

624

615

99

2000

657

671

102

2001

700

741

106

2002

725

843

116

2003

761

954

125

2004

783

1,074

137

2005

818

1,176

144

2006

845

1,290

153

2007

874

1,407

161

2008

919

1,457

159

Change

1995-2008

82%

217%

Source: Office for National Statistics; Bank of England

As you can see, over the 13 years from 1995 to 2008, our total disposable income rose by more than four-fifths (82%), from £504 billion to £919 billion. Incredibly, over the same period, our personal debt more than trebled, rising from £460 billion to £1,457 billion -- up £998 billion.

In other words, Britain now labours under an extra trillion pounds of debt that it didn't have at the start of the last housing boom. This burden will constrict consumer spending and house prices for years to come, especially when taxes rise and public-sector spending is cut.

4. Unemployment

As I explained in How job losses affect house prices, there is a strong link between unemployment and property prices.

This makes sense, because house prices and the number of people in work both go up during the good times, but fall when the economy goes into recession.

The latest figures from the Office for National Statistics show that in the 12 months to July 2009, the number of unemployed people increased by 743,000.

In other words, that's almost 2,000 jobs lost every single day of the year. To me, these are the real victims of the credit crunch.

Of course, when people lose their jobs and claim benefits, this hits the public finances twice, thanks to lower tax revenues and higher social-benefits payouts. Fear of unemployment also hits confidence, making workers less likely to pay high house prices. Unemployment also increases mortgage arrears and repossessions.

In the three months to July 2009, the unemployment rate hit 7.9% -- its highest level since November 1996. Alas, it is expected to continue rising into 2010 as companies reduce their expenses by cutting jobs.

All of which adds up to more bad news for property prices.

5. Weak recovery

In addition, I'm pessimistic about the strength of the UK's economic recovery.

From the second quarter of 2008 to the second quarter of 2009, the UK's gross domestic product (GDP, a measure of national output) fell by a whopping 5.5%.

Happily, the economy is expected to have bounced back in the third quarter, with a return to growth. Economists predict a 0.3% increase in GDP from Q2 to Q3, which makes a formal end to the recession which began last year.

The bad news is that, during our long credit-fuelled boom, we've grown used to the economy growing strongly, sometimes by more than 3% a year. Hence, with the coming recovery expected to be as weak as a kitten, it will feel like a continued recession to many of us.

Finally, I don't expect sceptical readers to buy my arguments. As former US President Lyndon B. Johnson once remarked, "[Quoting economic statistics] is a lot like peeing down your leg. It seems hot to you, but it never does to anyone else."

More: Find a cheaper mortgage | Nothing good comes of this recession | The joys of renting

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Comments (71)

  • peepobaby
    Love rating 49
    peepobaby said

    Q2 to Q3 increase? With or without QE? The fair measure, without QE, is likely to show another 2% q-on-q contraction (8% annualised). And as I work in it I'll suggest that business credit conditions hav enot really improved. Rates are marginally better, availability of funds has improved but there is not appetite to borrow because there's no believe in a recovery. its all refinancing of existing loans. As for capital investment (future job creation), the negative growth rates are the biggest we have on record.

    In any case, no-one will want to believe you.

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  • creative
    Love rating 7
    creative said

    As soon as I saw the headline, I thoiught 'Oh Cliff d'Arcy writing again'.

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  • Darling Darling
    Love rating 2
    Darling Darling said

    Hey creative - my thoughts too - this guy is too predictable and it's his own personal crusade as ever - yawn!

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  • supasap
    Love rating 19
    supasap said

    what does it matter, people buy houses to live in, and the longer they live in them the greater their chances are of having an asset that has appreciated in value, we're not talking about a house in the year 2034 being worth less than it was in 2009 are we? So it's only a problem for the forced sellers otherwise it is a stand off between would be sellers and buyers for a while, at same time banks standing on sidelines waiting to lend again then it will start all over again, modest then silly then correction ....... nothing to lose sleep about

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  • commodore
    Love rating 5
    commodore said

    Good article. The truth is painful, we could be in year one of our 'Lost Decade'- similar to the Japanese experience.

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  • marcusnf
    Love rating 0
    marcusnf said

    Yet again Cliff D'Arcy and his eternal crusade for the downturn in property prices, so he might one day be able to turn around to his family - years after getting rid of his home - after incorrectly predicting the top of the market (by several years no less).

    So your claims about how to spot the bottom of the market would certainly be best ignored - thankfully so many people know already of your continuous train of articles on the same thing, hence the comments on this article and other you have posted...

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  • ElectricMonk
    Love rating 1
    ElectricMonk said

    Beware the ides of October?

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  • gr8it
    Love rating 6
    gr8it said

    Dear Cliff, whilst there are many doom and gloom merchants, of which you are one of the most prolific in terms of the number of articles published on this issue, there will always be a fair chance that you might be right in future. There's always a chance the economy will fall off another cliff, pardon the pun.

    In fact I'd go as far to say, if you predict this garbage often enough, you may indeed persuade enough people to fulfil your own prophecy, although I doubt too many will adjust their lifestyle to pander to your prophetic nonsense.

    Hopefully most people disregard your ideas on the basis that its pure conjecture with, what appears to be a hint of personal gain attached. eg. if you can prevent enough people from getting back into the housing market, you can call the bottom of the market for your own ends and jump in at the right time, say 2011. I can see the headline now 'The Housing Market has bottomed out, jump on before its too late, I am!'

    I'm not suggesting you start singing from the hilltops that the economy is in good shape, far from it, we are all aware the Labour goons have cocked everything up in the last 12 years, but try a spoonful of unbiased opinion sometimes, perhaps people need a little more hope in their lives, after all, there is proof that a positive attitude in life has enormous benefits psychologically.

    Being a pessimist your whole life will only give you high blood pressure and possibly worse, you might get into the housing market too late and lose a shed load of money. Wouldn't that be a bummer!

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  • reason8
    Love rating 0
    reason8 said

    We want solutions not problems

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  • MrRee
    Love rating 65
    MrRee said

    Shortage of property coming to the market = higher prices.

    Although I hope for another fall in prices I simply cannot see it - there is a mad buying panic out there at the moment, it does not abide by common sense ..... everything which comes to the market is getting snapped up within days!

    Cliff .... the train has left the station, you are still stood on the platform I fear.

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  • medelectable
    Love rating 4
    medelectable said

    I actually believe Cliff is right in his beliefs!

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  • welsman1
    Love rating 1
    welsman1 said

    It was so good to read the responses to this boring predictable drivel written by Cliff - again! Are you short of other contributors on any other subjects? I bet he's one to avoid at any dinner party.

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  • oldhenry
    Love rating 265
    oldhenry said

    use a slumo to get a better location for your property- do not buy as cheap as chips, better locations will increase in value much more when the upturn comes and everyone has forgotton this credit crunch, but do not forget the '89 housing slump lasted for a long time, well into the middle '90s.

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  • Spoonyboy
    Love rating 1
    Spoonyboy said

    Well said Gr8it. I agree, this artical is self full filling guesswork, possibly for personal gain.

    The national newspapers reported the biggest house price increase in 5 years this month, news like this makes first time buyers jump on the housing market due to the fear of prices rising too much again.

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  • keirfamily
    Love rating 1
    keirfamily said

    It seems as if everyone is sitting around waiting for a recovery to help them out. Providing that recovery is, I presume, 'someone else's problem'.

    But wasn't it that sort of thinking that got us in the sticky stuff? Getting back to prosperity is going to be a slooooooow process, I fear. Austerity is more likely, for the next few years. But as Socrates said, "There are so many things I can do without".

    As they pay out more benefits (and take less in income tax) the government are hurting for money. Brace yourselves for big tax rises - including, possibly, a wealth tax (as in France) - say 1% of the value of your house+shares+savings. Every year. Which would make a mockery fo the "your house is your biggest asset" idea, and bring house prices down to the cost of building + land, not the present 'how much can I get for it' level.

    In the meantime, the solution starts with people, not governments - "be the change you want to see"! Might the local 'cash in hand' economy be the way out of all this?

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  • eLJay
    Love rating 76
    eLJay said

    The solution was for people not to allow greedy speculators to increase our house prices all those years ago and for people not to treat them like investments and pensions. You live in it - it should be cheap and renting a house should be even cheaper. We have also removed the ability of our workforce to relocate. Those of us with degrees are no doubt leaving in droves.

    The damage is done - now you have all got to live with your decisions having weakened the economy and after the world has handed over the financial lead to China. Do you remember us selling our junk and buying it back as expensive but low quality products only to sell it back as waste again a couple of years on, thats how China took the lead.

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  • Bridget
    Love rating 2
    Bridget said

    Well, I, for one, think he's right. Might not be dramatic, but things won't change in a while, and prices may well go down again, for all the above reasons.

    My blood pressure is nearly always on the low side, and I own a house, having moved houses in 2007.

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  • tankslapper
    Love rating 3
    tankslapper said

    Very interesting Cliff but my guess for calling this financial situation is to take 10p out of your pocket, assuming you can physically or financially stretch as far, and toss it in the air.

    Heads = financial recovery

    Tails = worsening recession

    The one thing this recession is teaching people is that the reasons are so over complicated that the Judgement of Solomon wouldn't even come close. So we are left with the only sane alternative - everyone can become fiscal pundits who's guess is as good as anyone elses

    Oop's................heads!

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  • AndyP
    Love rating 24
    AndyP said

    House prices didn't even come down that far, they're on the way back up again, and according to Nationwide (not yet Halifax) they're back at the level they were this time last year.

    The crash never happened, it was just a bit of a dip, and there doesn't seem to be any suggestion that an actual crash will happen in the next decade or so either. For every unemployed poor person unable to buy a home, there's someone rich ready to buy it and rent it to them (further swelling their own heaving coffers).

    As someone who rents and would desperately love to buy a home, it'd be nice if Cliff was right - tumbling house prices would be good for me (as they are far, far out of my reach at the moment). Unfortunately, I'm not able to delude myself as easily as Cliff, to the point of writing an article about something just because I want it to be true.

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  • eLJay
    Love rating 76
    eLJay said

    Of course there has been an increase in house prices - its been engineered by the estate agents usual greed and the usual summer increase in demand. Lets see what the costs are next year as the only answer is 'suck it and see'.

    My money is on the prices being down.

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  • keeping-it-real
    Love rating 4
    keeping-it-real said

    I respect Cliff for telling it how it is. The fact that lots of people

    become so annoyed by his comments always makes we laugh, as it is so obvious

    that they themselves have a vested interest in property prices

    recovering. I was only a couple of years ago everyone was on here saying

    that house prices will never come down! House prices out perform the

    stock market! You wont go wrong with bricks and mortar.......

    As someone of a younger generation, who is fairly in touch with his piers

    opinions on property prices, lots of young people now are starting to say

    "stuff buying a house" and I am also starting to feel this way

    also. Ultimately property in this country is still so over-priced and

    such bad value for money that younger people are starting to look outside the

    box and even consider emigrating. 150k for a two bed rabbit hutch? Think I will

    pass thanks.

    People who bought houses years ago do not

    deserve the appreciation in value, all that have done is lived in them! 

    Try and think about future generations and how the heck they are ever going to

    get on in life, before they all leave the U.K like a sinking ship.

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  • keeping-it-real
    Love rating 4
    keeping-it-real said

    I forgot to add that I think property prices will fall over the next few years, but not enough to make them afforadable for young people.

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  • Sparkyb
    Love rating 2
    Sparkyb said

    We have just bought (sold in the trough). We don't plan on it shooting up in value. We want to live in it. I think it is quite likely that a carefully engineered Bank of England rate could hold the value of my house for the next 5 years as it did for my previous house. After that the usual supply and demand will always push up house prices and speculators are everywhere, and most have the money to invest. As to the suggestion that they will take a further fall... I doubt it will be noticable.

    Just don't expect to make a killing for a few years

    I hope.

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  • Easy 11
    Love rating 1
    Easy 11 said

    I think he's right ....... plus don't know where all this property is increasing in value, less it's to do with russian billionaires purchesing comfy pads in Central London.

    Keep it real, well he or she is ....... I'm looking to re join the property market in the next year or so ,( the ex wife has my last foray ), but least was left with no debts .... nothing would have me touch the market for the next couple of years anyway with an extremely long stick.

    I have been looking at three area's in the south for the last 6 month's and have seen no increase in any respect in prices, infact quite the opposite, which makes me think someone somewhere is bigging things up ..... hmmmm personal gain perhaps ??

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  • eastcheshireman
    Love rating 2
    eastcheshireman said

    Like Bridget, I'm dead sure that Cliff is right.

    I have no axe to grind as I'm retired, I own my own house and would love house prices to stay high - but they cannot. If young peple cannot afford to get on the housing ladder, then the whole property market dies without it's supply of new money.

    The only questions are when will prices fall and by how much.

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  • Mick James
    Love rating 25
    Mick James said

    Some flip-flopping logic here:.

    Interest rates are low so the "only way is up". Credit supply is low and the banks have promised to lend more but you conclude "let's see if that happens".

    Unless you're completely wedded to the idea of a crash the as-yet-unrealised promises of the banks must surely count as an as-yet-unleashed inflationary force.

    And while interest rates can't get any lower, higher base rates don't imply "payment shock" for the millions that are still paying banks' unsustainable "massively increased...margins". In a more competitive mortgage market, many deals will be cheaper than they are today even with much higher base rates.

    As far as personal debt the recent statistics from 2009 show that people are now paying down their debt--by £0.6bn in July alone.

    Yes there is clearly a "strong link between unemployment and property prices" but this will have been weakened since the government's recent reform of housing benefit payments, doubling the maximum mortgage claimable and halving the wait before benefits kick in. Not only that, but unemployed people on mortgages will have benefited from the fact that the Treasury still pays mortgage interest at a standard rate of over 6%, even while the interest rates charged have collapsed. And recent news on jobs has been positive.

    I agree the recovery may be weak, but if this really is the bottom then we will have escaped lightly compared to our worst fears. What happen next is anyone's guess, but I imagine that people will rein in their consumption and increase their savings for a while to come. Whether they choose cash, stocks and shares or bricks and mortar as the vehicle for those savings is anyone's guess. If interest rates or the returns on stocks and shares remain poor then even current yields on bricks and mortar will come to look attractive for the cash-rich and risk averse.

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  • gdmoore
    Love rating 1
    gdmoore said

    I have no interest in what happens to UK property prices and only watch with academic interest. However, how much longer are people going to waste their time enganged in debate over the opinions of this clown.

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  • supasap
    Love rating 19
    supasap said

    never understood how normal inflation eg pint of beer or a cup of coffe or loaf of bread is "bad" and economists have written whole books on its evils but then house price inflation is somehow "good" or someone like Cliff who is predicting house price deflation is demonised........ in the great scheme of things it does not matter........ most people buy houses to live in and everyone needs somewhere to live ...... rents and house prices will forever be linked to young people's earnings and even if we suffer massive deflation of house prices over next 25 years then that's great news for future first time buyers and it still means that at the end of the period the owner no longer has to pay to live somewhere and the renter pays less because of the BTL margins kicking in........ if house prices continue to rise then it simply means that everything else will follow eg earnings otherwise sales will not occur except on deaths....... not sure why house prices are focus of so much attention......

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  • DaveB60
    Love rating 6
    DaveB60 said

    Please will someone explain to me a very simple thing.

    Some people quote the Halifax house prices guide, and others quote the Nationwide house prices guide. I'm sure other Building Societies / Banks have their own guides as well.

    All of these guides are only a partial picture of the selling prices of houses.

    Why don't people look at the Land Registry information, which gives details of all house price sales.

    Surely this is the only true guide

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  • SevenPillars
    Love rating 70
    SevenPillars said

    Since when has it been against the law for someone to write an article that suggests house prices should fall?

    We had 10 years of bull (quite literally) from the VI's ramping house prices prior to 2007 and even today we get rubbish mainstream reporting that talks about green shoots and recovery just because prices are going up on much lower sales, mainly because only those on big salaries with big deposits can afford to buy as our wonderful Government and BoE try desperately to maintain prices at levels reached only by a mixture of loose lending and fraud up to 2007.

    Now today, the Tories tell us that we all need to work a lot longer in order to pay for the greed of the banksters, speculators and liars of this great financial economy. If you are lucky you will be thrown some hope by house prices going up again, provided you got in before the greatest ponzi scheme of them all got rolling 10-15 years ago.

    I'm all for Cliff's articles because we need some balance from the usual drivel that we get from the VI's . We also need some honesty, especially from those who are forever bullish on property because it seems to me that you have no idea why the financial system and world economy was on the verge of collapse in 2008. In a word, it was down to overvalued property and all the fancy financial related products that the banksters and speculators created to go alongside it. Wake up and smell the coffee, there should be no going back to what happened before because it was a financial system that required lax regulation and massive fraud to work. If it happens again, we all go under.

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  • eLJay
    Love rating 76
    eLJay said

    Does it really matter what the house prices do - most people are living in their investment, so it has no real value.

    And even if they are all worth more - the cost of living tends to rise to meet it eventually anyway so there is only so much grace time before it catches up.

    As for - it will all recover arguements - well theres many Billions of debt now and no more money to follow it, so the cushion will be running out very soon. Japan did quantative easing and warned the rest of the world not to do it as it is the reason its taken them 10 years to turn their economy around. Unfortunately things tend to be run by those with vested interests in business and short term goals like elections, which is not ideal when it comes to a countries financies and prospects.

    Anyway if it gets really bad then I'll retire to somewhere like Mexico.

    All the best to you everyone. We all have vested interests but I think having a life is more important rather than worrying about money.

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  • Cliff D'Arcy
    Love rating 26
    Cliff D'Arcy said

    Hello all,

    Many thanks for your comments.

    I would make the following point to my critics: I sold my home in April 2005, expecting a housing crash. This duly arrived two years later -- and I expect it to continue after this 'spring bounce'.

    Over the past 4.5 years, the proceeds from my house sale have been invested in value shares. The house I sold has increased in value by about 25% over this period. My gain from selling an expensive asset and buying much cheaper ones has been many, many, many times that 25%.

    Hence, my decision to sell and rent has landed me with a huge financial windfall -- and one which, when I'm ready, I can use to jump right to the top of the housing ladder, buying my 'dream home' for cash.

    In summary, I have benefited enormously from jumping off the 'housing ladder'. Although I don't expect homeowners, property bulls and other vested interests to believe me, those are the facts! :0)

    Cliff

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  • nickpike
    Love rating 270
    nickpike said

    Want to play a new game with the comments section, it's called spot the estate agents?

    So houses are in short supply and FTBs are snapping them up, eh? Nonsense.

    Rightmove have had the same numbers up for sale for the last 18 months, and loads of properties languish on the market for ages. I use PropertBee, so it's easy to monitor the sad state of the UKs housing market. And don't use the quality excuse. There's nice looking houses out there. FTBs can't afford to buy a house, they cannot hope to raise 20 or 30k for a deposit or pay these rdiculously high prices. What a sick country we live in.

    The article writer is accused of being a doomster. All he is doing is using his eyes and reporting what he sees, and with some accuracy. If it all looks to frightening to accept, there's no point critisising his accuracy.

    We need more of the truth, less VIs manipulating the market, and a government who puts the people first and not themselves.

    Houses are far too expensive. Wake up Britain, as usual you are being screwed.

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  • cpb3001
    Love rating 0
    cpb3001 said

    Sent alongside a lovemoney.com article on buying a property now.

    Cliff, you are starting to bore me, I bought my house to live in.

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  • theBigM
    Love rating 6
    theBigM said

    Why such a negative response to this article. It is fairly clear that despite this so-called rally, property has still some way to fall and will certainly not continue to rise for a number of reasons:

    1 - Banks are still terrified of lending. Home loan conditions are still very tight. Two-thirds of all current mortgage offers require a 25% deposit. Gross mortgage lending is 52% down year-on-year in April.

    2- Mortgage approvals are 60% below their pre-collection levels and long way below the level required to maintain STABLE house prices let alone values rising again.

    3 - The rising cost of borrowing, i.e. banks raising their mortgage rates will extinguish any recovery. Nationwide and Northern Rock have already raised their five-year fixed rates by 2%. It is predicted that most of the part-nationaled banks will increase their fixed rates.

    4 - UK property is still massively unaffordable. From 1983-2001 the ratio of mortgage advances to earnings remained within a range of 2 to 2.5 times. By 2007, it had risen to 4 times. And real incomes are falling. Uk average-weekly earnings fell 3% year-on-year in March

    5- Unemployment is predicted to soar to 10% and when the dole queue lengthens house prices fall. Fewer people in work means lower disposable income available to make mortgage repayments. That both cuts the number of new buyers and increases the supply of forced sellers who can't meet their home loans.

    In short, there is no way house prices can realistically rise under present conditions and I think there may be a lot worse to come in terms of the economy

    Report on 06 October 2009  |  Love thisLove  2 loves
  • RogerGLewis
    Love rating 2
    RogerGLewis said

    well done cliff, watch out for the wealth tax though?

    I don't happen to agree with your latest analysis but would concede it could go either way.

    Report on 06 October 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • andy44
    Love rating 8
    andy44 said

    The UK housing market is supported and engineered by the banks. There are other countries where the only possible option to buy a house is cash, there is no such thing as a "mortgage". People who have not seen outside the UK cannot comprehend the tremendous link between banks and house prices and ownership in the UK. People posting comments above think it is their God-given right to own a house. Actually it is all down to the banks.

    I think the UK system is better, because by taking on a mortgage you are effectively saying "I promise to save every month enough so that after 25 years I can afford to buy a house". In other countries where mortages are non-existent, a young person would likely spend all his money and not save for a house (rents are much cheaper in those countries).

    The side effect of the UK system, the other side of the coin, is house inflation, as the banks hand out electronic money, money that has no backing on anything tangible, not even a "safe" multiplier, and buyers are borrowing more and more until so many of them fail to repay that drive the banks to the wall.

    The government should impose strict rules on house lending, and strict rules for the banks' reserves when lending. Or they can let the market bubble and burst again and the taxpayers to pay the price.

    Report on 06 October 2009  |  Love thisLove  2 loves
  • theBigM
    Love rating 6
    theBigM said

    Someone suggested that house prices would rise because "there was a shortage of housing" Is there? There seems to be plenty of available property out there. The problem is that there is a lack of AFFORDABLE housing for first-time buyers.

    The last boom was just the result of loose lending and easy credit supported by a booming economy. These conditions no longer exist. How will these supposed rises be sustained?    

    Report on 06 October 2009  |  Love thisLove  2 loves
  • Aquasponge
    Love rating 38
    Aquasponge said

    Interesting article and I fully agree with the tone. The next few months / quarters are going to be very difficult and its a shame, judging by a lot of the comments above, that many people are going to be taking by surprise....

    Report on 06 October 2009  |  Love thisLove  2 loves
  • gordonbanks42
    Love rating 11
    gordonbanks42 said

    Do those who accuse Cliff of self-interest really think he can talk the market down? Or that he thinks he can? Come off it!

    Or are they incapable of telling the difference between someone who wants something to happen and someone who believes it will happen?

    ----------

    I agree that under normal conditions mortgage lending is an inflationary force for house prices, but I think it will be a long time before conditions are near-enough normal for that to be the case. In the meantime mortgage lending will be constrained by caution (call it fear if you prefer) on the part of would-be lenders and borrowers alike.

    People think the Government's borrowing is reckless! Until that trillion-pound increase in personal indebtedness has got a lot smaller, there will continue to be an elephant in the room.

    Report on 06 October 2009  |  Love thisLove  1 love
  • knebworth
    Love rating 1
    knebworth said

    I'm sure it will all balance out at the end of the day, but what happens if (when) the conservatives get back into power and we see the interest rates climb back to 12% (don't think we will see 16% again -but don't quote me), where does that leave us?

    Could be a long day!

    Report on 06 October 2009  |  Love thisLove  1 love
  • dealtn
    Love rating 1
    dealtn said

    I don't have any particular axe to grind. A couple of points to hopefully educate and inform.

    Firstly looking at a small series of results from a mathematical perspective and claiming a usual spring bounce is a little suspect. In an unbiased rising price index you should expect any period within that series to also show a rise. Also the Halifax house price index is subject to seasonal adjustments (how accurate they are is another thing - again difficult to do in a small mathematical series) so you are making a false inference to suit your argument.

    Secondly you are a little off in your assessment of current bank behaviour (although to be fair no worse than much of the media - and certainly not as bad as others with an anti-bank agenda). Rightly or wrongly the politicians interfered with the running of our banks, well actually only the ones it could influence - mainly UK banks. In return they got assurances from them with respect to future (now current) behaviour. These banks are indeed increasing the amount of funds available as mortgages (and as you say business loans). However in the past the UK had a huge demand from individuals to borrow ie the demand for mortgages was huge (and exceeded then supply - economics eh!) and this attracted many overseas and second tier lenders into this mortgage market where they could (appear to) make good financial returns. In reality these returns weren't there and these institutions, many with problems themselves, have retreated from the market. This decrease in mortgage supply is greater than the increase in supply from the UK banks (economics again eh) and the aggregate supply of mortgage credit has fallen. True but don't blame the UK banks.

    Now on bank margins. The truth is lending margins in the past were wrong, and a huge part of why banks suffered and continue to suffer now. Banks were writing business at the wrong price. Banks chose a business model on market share or revenue over margin and profit. The why is philosophically a very interesting subject, but perhaps not for here. The reality is that banks are normalising the margin to reflect the current situation - they have committed to continue (increase) lending at a time when they themselves are net borrowers in the financial markets (as is the UK at a country level remember). The marginal cost of borrowing the monies to onlend to individuals as mortgages is very expensive (though falling). Margins today have to be higher than in the past. In the future this margin should compress but don't expect it to go as low as the recent past when banks were wrongly pricing their products.

    Most commentators (with or without an agenda) use the Halifax Price Index over the Land Registry figures simply because the latter is out of date at the time of its publishing, maybe up to 6 months. It is not a useful tool for the short termist nature of most article writers. (Or they use it simply because they are lazy and everyone else uses it so it must be right eh!). However you are right it has its faults, such as it ignores all transactions involving no mortgage finance (a huge number trust me). In the main, outside of some serious economic and academic research, the faults are outweighed by the benefits so it's acceptable to use it.

    I hope this helps some consider their position in the debate. The reality is that supply and demand will dictate current and future prices in any market. In housing we have a shortage of land holding down the supply of houses, a reduction in availability of finance to satisfy mortgage demand, an inabaility to "instantly" provide the deposits required by banks to avail of their mortgage product (it takes time to save eh!) and a demographic of more people requiring somewhere to live (we live longer, divorce more frequently, aspire to holiday home ownership, have net immigration etc). And for thoise wedded to the idea of house prices being a multiple of earnings we need to consider the demographic fact that is more normal to have multi earners occupying houses now than in the days of our parents so remember to adjust to the appropriate earnings multiple. For those who wish to predict prices on the basis of relative assets remember houses today typically have central heating, double glazing, inside toilets etc so remember to adjsut your time series to account for these etc.

    All these factors are at work in determing house prices. I will leave it to others to debate where and how we go from here, and what is the right course of action for them in purchasing (or not) what is ultimately a home not an investment.

    Report on 07 October 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • bimber
    Love rating 44
    bimber said

    Some advice for people who bought their house to live in and think articles about house prices are boring: these articles are not for you so don't read them.

    Some advice for people who think their house will rise in value over the next 30 years: a house at 7-times average earnings and £200,000 is worth more than a house at 4-times average earnings and £300,000. Inflation does not add value. If you measure houses in gold or euros or, as Cliff does, value shares, then the fall is much more obvious than when measured in increasingly valueless sterling. If you're interested in increasing your wealth over that timeframe then sell things which are expensive and buy things which are cheap. Wealth flows away from overpriced assets and renting a house is a small price to pay for an early retirement.

    Thanks Cliff, another good article.

    Report on 07 October 2009  |  Love thisLove  3 loves
  • myuserIDistaken
    Love rating 1
    myuserIDistaken said

    2 points:

    - These comments are all about "My vested argument is better than your vested argument". Everyone seems to have an opinion, and frankly no-one knows what will happen for sure.

    - My thought. If homeowners can't get the price they want, will they sell at all? If they don't sell at a reduced price, how many houses will be available? Presumably only people who need to sell will sell, and prices won't move too far... They certainly shouldn't plummet. Wouldn't they stay fairly static?

    Report on 07 October 2009  |  Love thisLove  1 love
  • subaruchick99
    Love rating 10
    subaruchick99 said

    Like many other comentators I wish that there would be more constructive and solution based discussions rather than half talking us into a depression financially and literally.

    And also some recognition of why many ordinary people out there went out and bought a second or third home as an investment. I have one occupational and one private pension and if you think that house prices have crashed, the only reflection I can make on my pensions is that they have been pee'd up a wall by the financial industries over the past 20yrs. If houses have fallen, my pension fund fall has outstripped it. I have more confidence in a house rising over the long term, or even repaying what's been paid in. And you can live in a house, rent it out. Pay money to a pension provider and you might effectively kiss it goodbye if it all goes wrong. And even if you salt a fortune away, the miserly pension it buys you is potentially not worth having.

    Over the years we have acquired five houses, all of which we lived in and didn't sell as we moved on in live. My mother lives in one, therefore providing her with retirement security she wouldn't have had from the pension system and three we rent out at reasonable rates to people who don't want to buy. While it means we don't have a scrap of spare cash, we are much more in charge of our own financial destiny than sleepwalking hand in had with financial institutions.

    So Cliff, say whatever you like about houses, as I think you are missing the point. We're all much more worried about what happens to money when you had it to someone else. Nothing beats having a tangible asset in your hands, and houses, for all their failings are just that.

    Report on 07 October 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • nickname
    Love rating 3
    nickname said

    I don't understand why articles like this which seem to show an accurate analysis of the situation we're in get so many bad comments. Maybe this site is full of amateur buy to let landlords who can't stand the thought that they might've made the wrong decision? Stand back and you might notice that you're just passing around the same over priced properties to each other. I suppose the site is called love money for a reason.

    Report on 07 October 2009  |  Love thisLove  3 loves
  • Cliff D'Arcy
    Love rating 26
    Cliff D'Arcy said

    Dear readers,

    Many thanks for your feedback. The quality of contributions has been excellent on both sides of the argument.

    However, I prefer fewer personal attacks and accusations that I'm attempting to 'talk the housing market down'. I am but one man facing millions of property bulls -- policitians, mortgage lenders, estate agents, surveyors, housing pundits, BTL landlords, homeowners, etc. Frankly, I'm nothing but a lone, cautious voice in the wilderness!

    All the best,

    Cliff

    Report on 07 October 2009  |  Love thisLove  1 love
  • MrRee
    Love rating 65
    MrRee said

    Cliff, I note you sold up in April 2005 .... just before the biggest growth in house prices - until they peaked around Autumn 2007.

    You appear to have 'jumped' 30 months too early. Although, as you state,the funds have made you richer than you would have been had you held onto the family home until today. Have you taken into account the money spent on Rent which has essentially been paying for someone elses property?

    I'm glad that you are smug - but, maybe - just maybe - you have called the next crash at least 30 months too early ...... juat as you did last time?

    As an aside, I wish for lower house prices for a variety of personal reasons I would applaude a 50% drop in values!

    Report on 07 October 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Cliff D'Arcy
    Love rating 26
    Cliff D'Arcy said

    MrRee,

    I sold my home two years before the peak, but it was also two years before the stock market peaked. Hence, in terms of a switch from housing and into cheap shares, I could hardly have timed it better -- more by luck than skill, I suspect!

    Cliff

    PS: I'm not smug -- far from it. I desperately tried to warn my readers of the impending housing crash. Indeed, it gives me no joy to see the financial meltdown which has occurred since the summer of 2007. I'm just relieved to be out of the whole housing casino for now!

    Report on 07 October 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Mick James
    Love rating 25
    Mick James said

    I'm not suggesting you're necessarily wrong about this Cliff, just that you're not considering all sides of the equation. There really is no pro-and anti- in this debate--underneath it all it's not property prices we're obsesed with in the UK but property itself, as evidenced by your own endgame: the purchase of a "dream home".

    But given that this is clearly coming closer and closer I would ask why your article is subheaded "five reasons to fear the future" rather than "five reasons to rub your hands with glee"?

    Report on 07 October 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Cliff D'Arcy
    Love rating 26
    Cliff D'Arcy said

    From today's FT:

    Fitch forecasts steep house price falls

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/6209faa4-b34d-11de-ae8d-00144feab49a.html

    Cliff

    Report on 07 October 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • eLJay
    Love rating 76
    eLJay said

    Rant, please don't let the negative equity grow any larger, Rant Rant Rant.

    LMAO.

    Report on 08 October 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Bumclucker
    Love rating 4
    Bumclucker said

    I agree, People paying unrealistic prices for houses and banks providing equally unrealistic loans are the cause of the "credit crunch". When will people learn that house prices are linked to so many other things and when these traditional links become destorted a bubble begins to grow. The bubble of house prices has only partly birst. House prices need to fall by at least 50% from their peak. Until they do any one buying a house could face negative equity for many years.

    Report on 08 October 2009  |  Love thisLove  1 love
  • RogerGLewis
    Love rating 2
    RogerGLewis said

    Considering House prices and the mortgage market alone is a very one dimensional analysis of the so called credit crunch.

    Timing is very important in all of this and also the time horizon over which one compares performance of any one particular investment over another. Opportunity cost is always at work also. It should also always be considerd that we each have our own personal and individual circumstances and goals so what is sauce for the goose is not always sauce for the gander.

    I would ask the question is the housing market a symton of the crsah or the cause of the crash, this time around I believe it was more of a sympton.Lord Turner has had some flak for his excellent speech in the Masion House on 26th September. But I think his words of cautin to the so called Masters of the Universe were well meant and well said.

    http://www.fsa.gov.uk/pages/Library/Communication/Speeches/2009/0922_at.shtml

    The wider picture in the economy does look quite scary I wonder what the money supply figures are looking like, where are the inflationary spectres right now for rates to go racing back to 14% as one person has commented above.

    I think confidence has a lot to do with all of this and the confidence has gone from the banking industry and they are struggling to rob their current account holders in the face of scrutiny from those same customers that have bailed them out through their taxes.

    It does amuse me that anyone would think a Value share should be considered as any safer than any other asset class in this market especially after all that has happened in the last two years, that really is laughable. If the stock market is set for a slow glide to a comfortable altitude propert will be on a few years behind it always is, as they say nothing new under the sun.

    Report on 09 October 2009  |  Love thisLove  1 love
  • RogerGLewis
    Love rating 2
    RogerGLewis said

    Sorry for the typos above should have edited

    Report on 09 October 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • RogerGLewis
    Love rating 2
    RogerGLewis said

    Heres the answer to my own money supply question

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125421345998848679.html

    The banks are causing more damage to the real economy by their selfish ways and their Mendacious protests to the contrary are quite easily snookered by a closer look at the facts.

    Report on 09 October 2009  |  Love thisLove  1 love
  • eLJay
    Love rating 76
    eLJay said

    Its generally a very stupid move to have massive debts and not have savings. People realise this - you would think the government would realise this too.

    As for the money the tax payer bailed the banks out with - surely they should have arranged interest at somewhere between 8.9 to 18.9% just like they would to their customers, the more desperate they are the higher the charge?

    Report on 09 October 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • MrRee
    Love rating 65
    MrRee said

    And, still, property price march on upwards ....... the British people seem to have this belief that prices can really only go one way - and that self belief is turning that into a reality.

    Whether we like it, or not, those who cannot understand the mentallity are in the minority - and thus, it is like trying to stop the tide.

    Prices will, and have always, defied logic!

    Report on 13 October 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • XK150
    Love rating 0
    XK150 said

    Cliff / lovemoney, I feel that it time you started commenting and writing about some other subjects. Broaden your horizons as it appears to be clear that many readers have had sufficient on house prices, PPI - it's all too samey predictable, heard it before.

    We need more orginality more new thinking

    Report on 13 October 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • AuditorGeneral
    Love rating 4
    AuditorGeneral said

    There must be a reason the readers of Lovemoney just love to attack Cliff D'arcy here. Why?

    Report on 14 October 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Dodge
    Love rating 0
    Dodge said

    Well said Cliff, and ignore the insults! What the property bulls haven't grasped yet is that the same policies that support house prices will inevitably destroy the UK's economy. From reading some of the posts above, it seems that absoluely nothing has been learned from the recent crisis. Unfortunately we all have to suffer the consequences of the Government's wrong-headed thinking.

    Report on 14 October 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • CongoDave
    Love rating 0
    CongoDave said

    Right on, Cliff...

    As another poster points out, how can there be so much negativity given the hard facts. It should be obvious to anyone with any intellectual honesty (i.e. not those who deperately want/need prices to remain high who have their fingers in their ears) that given the combination of historically low interest rates, rising unemployment, current over-valuation of properties, etc, house prices still have a very long way to fall.

    As for the general personal attacks and usual 'yet another bearish Cliff article' rhetoric, please grow up, people.

    Report on 14 October 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Cliff D'Arcy
    Love rating 26
    Cliff D'Arcy said

    As J M Keynes might have remarked, "How can we all become rich merely by buying and selling houses between us?"

    Cliff ;0)

    Report on 15 October 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • staintuneriderzwei
    Love rating 2
    staintuneriderzwei said

    Cliff it's time you faced facts ! I can't believe you don't understand that the property market has changed forever. There's no point in collecting all your material to substantiate your case as this won;t change a thing. I think you know what;s coming now but you just canl;t face it.... low interest rates, a return to the credit supply and a lack of stock...oh you and others can bleat about it not happening but you are way behind the curve looking backwards not forwards....

    You must be getting deperate bceause you are now more than ever a major poster on your own articles.

    "AND YOU QUOTE kEYNES "How can we all become rich merely by buying and selling houses between us?" wELL, it was ok for you to sell and then try and take advantage of a major crash that hasn't and isn't working out the way you want !

    Going to remove this post too like you have my other s ? 

    Report on 16 October 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • staintuneriderzwei
    Love rating 2
    staintuneriderzwei said

    And while I am it let's take a look at Cliff's attempt to bolster his argument using that rubbish spouted by Fitch.

    For those who don't know Fitch are the Credit Ratings Agency equivalent of the Liberal Democrats ! They are 3rd behind Moody's and Standard and Poor's.

    All of these ratings agencies were sleepwalking into the credit crunch doling out AAA+ ratings to any pile of "securitised assets" yes remember the Ninja mortgages in the US ?

    From time to time all of this lot spout something about property usually months behind the curve and usually just to get some headlines. I wager the man on the street has a better grasp of the current property/mortgage market than any of these agencies. The best of the bunch is Standard and Poors and they are a dinosaur, stuck in their ways with all the flexibility of an oil tanker in duckpond !

    Most of these agencies are US centric and are the least reliable source for gainign an insight into the UK property market, it's simply not their forte !

    Finally just for those who don;t know all these agencies make their crust providing security ratings on security investments. All the big banks have to use them usually all of them and pay for the privilege. They have been living off of what is a virtual monopoly for years hence why they are widely discredited in the markets.

    For S&P to have been asked for advice post crunch in the US was a joke, they didn't even see it coming because all they think about is their ratings cash cow business hence doling out worthless ratings on toxic secutised assets. Just look at the ratings they had for RBS and Northern Rock and the like in early 2007 when they should have had both under the microscope.

    As I have said before I believe Cliff is massively biased regarding property in the UK.. He's calling it the way he wants it rather than being an objective journalist. When i saw his own post quoting Fitch I though it smacked of desperation the like of which I have never seen before in a financial forum.

    Report on 17 October 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • eLJay
    Love rating 76
    eLJay said

    Only time will tell who is right - so stop wittering on and wait and see.

    Oh and Cliff is smug - in his avatar photo - 'smug I say'.

    Report on 02 November 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • MrRee
    Love rating 65
    MrRee said

    When is this Part 2 crash supposed to happen?

    I see absolutely no sign of it in my area - every house which comes to the market is sold within days, maybe hours.

    Report on 02 November 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Cliff D'Arcy
    Love rating 26
    Cliff D'Arcy said

    Hi staintuneriderzwei,

    The only posts of yours I've had removed are those in which you rant or make personal insults. Keep to the rules and your posts will remain.

    By the way, have you ever heard this quote, often attributed to George Soros, the billionaire?

    "It's not whether you're right or wrong that's important, but how much money you make when you're right and how much you lose when you're wrong."

    My point is that my decision to exit the housing market and invest the proceeds elsewhere has produced huge gains and dramatically increased my personal wealth. So, tell me, where did I go wrong? ;0)

    Cliff

    Report on 02 November 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • urbanhacker
    Love rating 8
    urbanhacker said

    Prices are rising...

    The affordability index (average earnings to price ratio) is pretty even.

    http://www.findaproperty.com/media/house-prices/FindaProperty_HPA_Index_Feb10.pdf

    Stock although growing is still low since people don't want to invest in new homes in an uncertain market nor sell their existing homes at what may be a loss.

    This is why I think supply and demand are the biggest key factors in the coming year.

    Report on 21 February 2010  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • silkycat
    Love rating 37
    silkycat said

    I enjoyed trawling through all these comments. I agree that Cliff seems a little too smug to be providing unbiased comments.

    As urbanhacker says, it's all down to simple supply and demand in the end. But it's not just supply and demand of property; it's also supply and demand of funds.

    As prices fall then more first timers will come to the market provided they can raise sufficient funds. The longer they have been out of the market the larger their potential deposits will be.

    Banks need to lend to make profits. No matter how big the margins are they won't make any profit if they don't lend. There is evidence that banks have used recent profits to pay off bad debts and are now turning themselves around - witness recent profit announcements and bonus awards.

    So, banks need to lend: even after the end of quantitve easing they have more cash to lend 'sensibly' and first time buyers have more deposit money saved up.

    Then it's a question of available supply. This will be the crucial point, how many people will be selling because they have to (with unemployment predicted to rise this could be quite a few) and how many just because they feel like a change?

    The market will find it's own bottom point as the lower prices fall the more demand will increase from first timers. So, I think that prices will be bumping along the bottom for a while, but are unlikey to fall significantly further.

    You'll know when the bottom has been reached when Cliff comes on again telling us about the mansion he has just bought!

    Report on 21 February 2010  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • timberford
    Love rating 2
    timberford said

    I bought a house in May 2007, right before the peak of prices. This month a house on the same road, the same size & layout was sold for the same price I paid for mine.

    I know people trying to buy at the moment and they are struggling big time. All the best houses are snapped up before they even make it onto the estate agent websites.

    My friend has had two offers accepted on different properties in the last month only to be 'gazumped' both times.

    Report on 21 February 2010  |  Love thisLove  0 loves

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