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The Time To Buy A Bigger Property Is Now

Rachel Wait
by Lovemoney Staff Rachel Wait on 28 January 2009  |  Comments 81 comments

If you're thinking about trading up to a home with two or three bedrooms, things are looking good......

I bought my first property about a year and a half ago. I admit it wasn't the wisest time to buy -- in fact, it was quite possibly the worst -- but at least I've made my first step onto the property ladder.

My flat isn't exactly what you would call spacious -- it only has one bedroom for a start -- so I have to confess that I do occasionally dream of moving to a bigger place.

So that's why the latest research from propertyfinder.com has made me smile. According to the research, now is a great time to trade up to a larger property! In fact, it's now easier to make the leap from a one bedroom house to a two bedroom house than at any other time in the past five years!

So if I did decide to trade up to a two bedroom home, I would now only have to find an extra £31,000 compared to the £41,500 I would have needed a year ago.

How come?

Well, it's all to do with the recent lack of mortgage availability which has impacted the lower end of the market in particular. Homeowners at the lower end of the market tend to have smaller amounts of equity in their homes and, following tighter lending restrictions, it's become harder to gain access to finance in order to move.

This means activity at the lower end of the market has become stagnant, fewer people have moved home, and property prices have plunged.

According to propertyfinder.com, the value of two bedroom homes has fallen fastest, with the average price dropping by around 12%* between 2007 and 2008, to £160,596. Meanwhile the average value of a one bedroom home only fell by 8% to £129,874.

The past year has also seen the average price of a three bedroom property drop by around 12%* to £219,032. So if you wanted to trade up from a two bedroom home, you'd only have to find an extra £58,436 compared to the £66,264 you would have needed a year ago.

Further up the ladder

Unfortunately this trading up theory doesn't work all the way up the property ladder. Despite falling house prices, the amount you'd have to pay for a fourth bedroom has actually increased over the past 12 months by £9,502.

This is because the average price of a four bedroom home has held up pretty well over the past year compared to the rest of the market. Compared to the 12% fall seen for three bed homes, the average value of a four bed home has dropped just 5% to £370,276. This is because those homeowners higher up the property ladder generally have larger amounts of equity in their homes and can move more easily.

So this means the price gap between a three bed and a four bed home has significantly widened and it's now more expensive to trade up. You can see this is the chart below.

Size of propertyAverage house price 2007Average house price 2008Percentage fall*
1 bedroom£140,852£129,8748%
2 bedroom£182,346£160,59612%
3 bedroom£248,610£219,03212%
4 bedroom£390,343£370,2675%

Source: Propertyfinder.com

 Price of bedroom 2007Price of bedroom 2008
2nd bedroom£41,494£30,722
3rd bedroom£66,264£58,436
4th bedroom£141,733£151,235

Source: Propertyfinder.com

What this means

For anyone hoping to trade up to a two bedroom or three bedroom property over the coming months, it should now be far easier and cheaper to do so.

That said, if house prices fall even further this year, it could become even cheaper to trade up to a larger property. So you may reap the benefits from holding off a little longer if you can.

Best mortgage deals

If you are looking to move home and need to remortgage, one of the best fixed rate deals around is Bank of Scotland's two year mortgage at 3.79%. It comes with a £799 fee and to qualify, you'll need an equity stake of at least 25%.

Alternatively, if you'd prefer a tracker, First Direct is offering a rate of 3.39%. This comes with a £799 fee, and you'll need a deposit of 20%.

If neither of these tickles your fancy, you can compare other great deals through our mortgage service.

*Percentages are rounded up to nearest whole number. The average price of a two bed home fell slightly more than that for a three bed home (11.92% versus 11.89%).

More:  In Search Of The 0% Mortgage | Why House Prices Will Fall This Year

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Comments (81)

  • mal878
    Love rating 0
    mal878 said

    what are credit unions and are they worth dealing with as far as saving concerned??

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  • Staintunerider
    Love rating 0
    Staintunerider said

    Interesting article, when I saw the headline I thought it might even be Cliff D'Arcy trying to be positive. No such luck, well done Rachel for an objective piece of journalism.

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  • supasap
    Love rating 19
    supasap said

    does not make sense, by her own logic, her own house has fallen in value by 8% and there are fewer buyers for her house so why smile?

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  • flying4fool
    Love rating 0
    flying4fool said

    So Rachel, you are going to sell your 1 bedroom flat, lose £11,000 on what you paid on it, then spend an additional £31,000 for another bedroom, never mind solicitor, estate agents & stamp duty, removal expenses, exit fees from existing mortgage, fees from new mortgage....... hmmmm, I don't think too many people will be doing this.

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  • 1malteser
    Love rating 0
    1malteser said

    Interesting article definitely. I like flying4fool and several other Fools are keenly waiting for your answer please Rachel.

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  • projectpete
    Love rating 0
    projectpete said

    flying4fool, even in your scenario (regardless of topping up the equity and the costs) I am amazed a 1 bedroom flat sold in the first place.

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  • ros17
    Love rating 0
    ros17 said

    I think you have missed something here. You say yourself how much harder it is to get a mortgage at the moment so unless a persons wages have increased significantly, how would they now be able to afford the extra £31,000 that they couldn't afford two years ago?

    With even less equity in their current property, even if you have saved some extra deposit it's still very hard to get a mortgage and impossible to get a decent rate unless you have a huge deposit.

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  • Three16
    Love rating 0
    Three16 said

    This article assumes that you're able to sell your existing property quickly and easily.

    Hmmmm. Have you read a newspaper lately?

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  • ITMonkey
    Love rating 0
    ITMonkey said

    I think that people are being a little harsh here, there are lots of scenarios where this is appropriate.

    1. For a start, many people bought their houses (or flats etc) many years ago at values lower than they are now, even allowing for the slump and so have positive equity; in addition these same people may have increased their earnings significantly over those years. What may have cost them an extra £10k when they bought there property may have been too much of a stretch at that time, a year ago the £40 was still a tad too far, but £30k today may be OK.

    2. Not everyone works in an industry that is at risk; nothing is certain, but many jobs are still secure for the forseable future even if worst case predictions are accurate.

    3. SOME houses are still selling, there are fewer buyers, but there are some; this means that for a property to sell it either needs to be the best price or the best house at the price. I would suggest that if you are trying to sell your house and failing, then you either need to stop being greedy and drop the price or seriously look at the decor in your pad... maybe get Ann Maurice round to insult your taste for half an hour worth of prime time TV viewing material... your call!

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  • ITMonkey
    Love rating 0
    ITMonkey said

    Para 2, Line 5, Word 11 = their

    Sorry!

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  • gortnomore
    Love rating 0
    gortnomore said

    Sorry, what / where is the 'property ladder' - I know there's a housing market just like there is for other asset classes, but a 'property ladder'?

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  • comptroller99
    Love rating 0
    comptroller99 said

    Lets assume the arithmetic is correct for now.

    Won't it be even more correct in 12 months time when property prices have fallen by another 10/15%?

    Surely, if one accepts these theories (although I am with flying4fool in being sceptical), then the time to "buy a bigger property" is at or near the bottom of the cycle not when prices are widely predicyed to fall substantially further.

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  • SiGl26
    Love rating 26
    SiGl26 said

    Have any of the last 7 posters actually read the article? It's the differential that has dropped, so even if one takes a hit selling the current property one is paying a smaller increment to trade up. If the flat is sold at an 8% discount on its purchase price and the house bought at a 12% discount, you're ahead. The practicality of the transaction is independent of these numbers; they apply to a cash buyer who's come into some money as much as a status-scraping borrower.

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  • missmuffat
    Love rating 0
    missmuffat said

    "This means activity at the lower end of the market has become stagnant, fewer people have moved home, and property prices have plunged"

    Sadly property prices in my area havent "plunged" but I suspect their value has

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  • GeorgeL1980
    Love rating 0
    GeorgeL1980 said

    I too have profited from this situation. I bought my house in 2004 for 120k. I have just part-ex on a new build excepting an offer of 130k. It’s worth noting my current property reached a high of 150k in July last year. At the same time the house I have bought was marketed at 320k. I've just bought that house for £227.5k. So for my 20k hit I've saved a massive 72.5k on this trade up.

    It’s true my new home may take another 10% hit over the next 6 - 9 months. We also need to remember the price crash will affect all homes, but in the long term I've made a great investment.

    In an ideal world I would have loved to have waited a little longer to get an even more favourable differential. However, I needed to retain some equity in my current property as a form of deposit.

    There are deals out there. The deveopler has even paid my stamp duty. You've just got to be able to walk away if the offer isn't what you want. :)

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  • SiGl26
    Love rating 26
    SiGl26 said

    Sorry - I meant posters 3-9...

    ITmonkey's right about job security; even if 15% lose their jobs, that's 85% that don't. No comfort if you're one of the 15%, but let's be real

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  • msinclair9981
    Love rating 0
    msinclair9981 said

    Um, Rachel please tell me if those mortgage deals you quote are applicable to you... As you bought your first property a year and a half ago. Well I bought mine a little over two years ago and no way am I going to have an equity stake anywhere near what a bank will be willing to remortgage for me!!

    Can anyone advise me on the current status of those who are already home owners. Are banks more willing to lend additional funds to those looking to upgrade rather than those loking for the first rung on the slippery ladder?

    I am in the foruntate position in that my salary has actually increased substancially since getting my mortgage. But still I guess my equity is something like 5-6% :(

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  • jessemax
    Love rating 0
    jessemax said

    I am getting fed up with these half baked, headline grabbing articles on The Fool

    We visited several estate agents last week between them they had sold 3 homes since November

    So, how am I supposed to sell my house to move up????

    My best friend is a FSA specializing in mortgages (or lack thereof) - he is just about to pack it in as he cannot obtain funding from banks and building society's for his clients. Where am i to obtain my funding?

    Wake up and smell the beans oh reporter in a cozy job.....

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  • MrPound
    Love rating 11
    MrPound said

    I don't envy anyone who is near the bottom of the "property ladder". It must be really difficult and I am fortunate for the market conditions in which I bought my first house 10 years ago, otherwise I would be in the same position. However we bought our 2nd house in 2006, just before the peak. It is a 3 bed semi in a family area in Leeds and we paid £230K for it. It is a very popular area and only just before Christmas 3 houses sold within 2 streets of ours for iro £220K. My point is that we are an island and space is still a premium despite market conditions. Popular houses will hold their value over the medium and long terms as developers keep oversupplying 1 and 2 bed flats in city centre developments and not building enough larger family houses in sub-urban areas. Simple supply and demand. We have an ageing population so the number of young graduates / professionals requiring these flats is diminishing but the number of pensioners looking to downsize is increasing. If I was a property developer (and I've missed the boat on that one) then I'd build bungalows - thousands of them - not city centre apartments.

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  • colin106
    Love rating 0
    colin106 said

    Well said jessemax.

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  • RogerGLewis
    Love rating 2
    RogerGLewis said

    I think this is an interesting angle on the buy now or wait question.

    Georgel980 is on the money I agree he will have made himself a great long term investment.

    Crystal ball gazing, calling the bottom of the market, calling the top, it's really not that easy. The property Market isn't a one size fits all place, do your research and be prepared to walk away, thats great advice from george as well.

    I suspect that if everyone waits until say cliff D'arcy decides it's safe to go in a lot of people in his company will be making statements like '' if i committed earlier then sure I may have paid less but still over the long term I will have made myself a great investment', trying to save a deposit in a rising market is equally frustrating, maybe more so.

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  • ss770640
    Love rating 1
    ss770640 said

    i appreciate rachels efforts to single handedly kick start the housing market. its a refreshing read from the "0.0001% drop in house price" stories. but why dont you just buy a mansion? a 1% saving in a mansion price will be a lot more than the additional cost of an extra 2 bedrooms. NO one has any money to spend! NO one can get money from the banks who have gone bust! and there are no properties worth buying due to overinflated costs!! these stories are pointless

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  • brownbread
    Love rating 0
    brownbread said

    I bought a 2 bed groundfloor seafront flat in 2007 in Sussex for £120k. (Buy to Let)

    Value now is about ££105/£110k

    In view of this article, should I sell at a loss to up grade to a 2/3 bed house?

    Tony

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  • DownTheBoozer
    Love rating 4
    DownTheBoozer said

    Gallant effort at talking up the property market Rachel but, sadly, this sceanrio applies to very few people.

    The only way anyone can realistically trade up to a larger place is if they had 50%+ equity when they bought their home in the first place. With recent price falls, their equity will have been reduced and they will likely need more equity in order to secure the larger property (due to lenders loan to value requirements).

    Do you know many people who have sufficient equity required to make the step up? Unless you know of someone who came across some kind of windfall in the last 12 months, I'd be surprised if you come up with a single example!

    During periods of property prices fall, it actually makes it harder to move to a larger property for most people as the equity in their existing home is reduced and (unless they have substantial savings) they just don't have the equity required to secure a more expensive place.

    The 'property ladder' as you enthusiastically put it is great when it is a ladder and you are able to step up but is no fun when it turns into a fireman's pole and there's only one way to go ..... down!

    I'm sorry Rachel, I know its not what you want to hear, but the only people who benefit during property price falls are those on the sidelines in rented accomodation who are disciplined enough to save a deposit.

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  • richardcgnfc
    Love rating 0
    richardcgnfc said

    I bought my 1 bed flat in 2007! Doh!! Im now at 103% LTV...

    I want to upgrade to a 3bed terrace nearby (in Kent) which is only £140k...

    I earn over £40k but have no deposit or equity...

    So in short - i could in theory easily afford mortgage repayments but i have no deposit or equity to scale up!!!

    Im stuck.

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  • DownTheBoozer
    Love rating 4
    DownTheBoozer said

    case in point Richardcgnfc, case in point ....

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  • c23e
    Love rating 0
    c23e said

    I can't believe that motley fools have the nerve to write articles like buy a property now. Was this article written by an estate agent. In my opinion property prices are over-hyped by ten years of frenzied greed and paranoia that first time buyers must get on to the property market otherwise they won't be able to afford it and profiteers using that to increase gains. Most economists say the recession will last at least two years and even the IMF says the UK will be hit hardest. Why - because of our over-reliance on the financial sector and property. If I were stupid enough to think of buying a property I would offer between 20 and 40 per cent below the market value. However my advice is to wait a year at least. Those who were trying to make money will be desperate to off-load. Even then it might be too early to a reasonable buy. In Birmingham there have been properties on sale at over-inflated prices for five years and they have still not sold. Lots of people from the south have bought up city apartments (I prefer to call them flats!)thinking they would make a killing because the south was too hyped. But like all feeding frenzies, the big fish get gorged and now they are dying waiting to be picked off. Wait another one to two years then make ridiculous offers. Remember 25 per cent of the Birmingham population live below the poverty line according to statistics. They are the kinds of figures (which you can get for all cities)you need to take into account before putting your hard earned cash on the line.

    It's a shame the motley fools so called experts are still tied in to the hype and the self fulfilling money fantasies that lead to boom and bust. We need more reasoned and reasonable advice!!

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  • bimber
    Love rating 44
    bimber said

    It's good to see an appreciation of the benefits of falling house prices but, with no consideration for the cost of renting a larger house, this article seems more like an attempt to rationalise a bad decision rather than an objective appraisal of the options for those needing more living space. With no new money propping up the base of the pyramid, the whole thing will surely fall further. In financial terms, purchasing a larger house could barely be more poorly timed. Has the author not heard of Cliff D'Arcy?

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  • Yorkstyke
    Love rating 89
    Yorkstyke said

    Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha!

    This proves what I have suspected for some time, either TMF is losing the plot or it has vested interests in talking up the market.

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  • riondog
    Love rating 0
    riondog said

    Yes, I agree mostly with c23e. It's a nice little article though, I'm all for positivity. It's just so ridiculous to say it's easier to move up the ladder now, particulalry from a 1-bed to a 2-bed. Does the author have any idea how difficult it is to sell a 1-bed flat right now? Obviously the article was neither written by an estate agent or a mortgage advisor, just a well-meaning 'journalist' who doesn't appear to know what's happening in the real world. That's Motley Fool for you....experts? I think not.

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  • bimber
    Love rating 44
    bimber said

    "Was this article written by an estate agent?"

    It may as well have been. It seems to have been inspired the opinions of vested interests - "the latest research from propertyfinder.com".

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  • Greenfingerz
    Love rating 0
    Greenfingerz said

    Rachel, your admission that you bought a property at the worst possible time and it is only your first property makes me seriously question your acument and wonder why anyone would value your opinion.

    If writing this article made you feel better about your own poor investment, fair enough. But, should it really be published under the Fool branding?

    I predict a massive drop in interest; mine - in reading what is increasingly becoming spam from The Fool.

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  • sgtwolf
    Love rating 0
    sgtwolf said

    yes but WHY this obsession with Buying a property???

    Lets try to talk up the housing market.

    Britain has by far the poorest housing standard in Europe, yet still very elevated prices.

    And since now most people facing negative ezquity or very low demand for their dearly acquired UK property, it appears to be in everybody's interest to talk the collapsing housing market...Nice try

    In eg Scandinavia, not even the cattle are put in drafty buildings, with turn of the century heating systems and no underfloor heating.

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  • kka65
    Love rating 0
    kka65 said

    We have also looking to trade up, from a 3 bed room to a 5 bed room bungalow. They are asking for £295,000. What will be the best price to offer them? We are lucking that we re-mortgage at the height of the market in July 2007 and took the equity out. It is saving account.

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  • kinshaw
    Love rating 0
    kinshaw said

    I sense a lot of anger and frustration here. I also sense that this article was written to specifically provoke a response. If that was indeed the case then a satisfactory result.

    Generally house prices are falling as they cyclically do. They also go up in cycles as well. The falls are usually faster than the rises. The falls are painful as they are usually accompanied by a lot of other, possibly, unavoidable things going on at the same time - that is why they fall.

    If you are financially well organised you can take advantage of this state of affairs. If you aren't you can't. Most of us are not that well organised. Sad fact. I have enough optimism left to think that we will all survive. How painful all this will be is the ongoing debate, plus how to deal with it all this time around.

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  • bojotools
    Love rating 1
    bojotools said

    I sold an inherited bungalow in South Yorkshire in May last year for 75% of it's value only a year before and a property I took in part-ex, a nice two bedroom terrace was sold for 80% of it's valuation in September last year.

    In order to get any interest at all, properties are selling at 60-70% of peak valuations in most of Yorkshire. In the States, where I plan to move, California has taken a massive hit with some properties selling at 30-40% of what they would have only 18 months ago. If you have a good job and can still get credit there are massive opportunities, but clearly there are winners and losers in any depressed market.

    This whole collapse in world markets has been caused by a false perception of wealth based on unrealistic property appreciation. What we are experiencing is an adjustment to something more realistic where people will have to live within their means and indifferent products can't find enough buyers with more money than sense.

    Think long and hard if you plan to move on the basis that it could be the making or the ruin of you.

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  • marktheharp
    Love rating 0
    marktheharp said

    kka65, in terms of what to offer for the property you have seen, find out how long it's been on the market and what if anything the current owners have done to improve it.

    As long as it's been on the market for 1-2 years (not unusual these days) then you should be able to get useful information about its last sold price. It's then a relatively simple matter to work out what it's worth now, taking into account

    1) what the current owners paid for it, MINUS

    2) the % price drop on that type of property over that period in that area PLUS

    3) the financial value of any improvement work done to it by the current owners.

    This advice came from an estate agent and I think is quite good - no-one can much argue with the logic of that approach, especially if you spell it out when you make an offer. Good luck!

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  • hsb79
    Love rating 0
    hsb79 said

    Thank you Rachel for a thought provoking article.

    My partner and I have been looking to upgrade to a 4bed place for about 18months. When we initially looked, we came to the conclusion that for the sort of property we would like, we would be saddled with a mortgage about 4.3 times our joint salaries. This was (and still is) not something we were prepared to do.

    Interstingly we live in an area where this cost appears to be lower than the national average. Having kept an eye on the market, and the places coming onto the market, the sort of place we're after would now give us a mortgage of up to 3 times our joint salaries.

    In the mean time, we have both received pay rises, and managed to increase the deposit we have. And it appears that the 4 bed properties have dropped their value the most. Although the deposit required is a bit more difficult to achieve, we are in a much better position now than we were 18months ago to make an upgrade with the greatest long term benefits.

    I would be interested to know how the stats Rachel has used vary throughout different regions, as I am obviously seeing a different pattern to her.

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  • Waretobuy
    Love rating 0
    Waretobuy said

    If the guy I am current buying from paid £150k for his flat in 2004, and I am paying the same in 2009 is he making a mistake? (peaked at 180k) NO of course not! He has paid off four years mortgage (probably 12-15k) and decreased the amount he owes, therefore he can leave with equity and not negative equity to carry with him (plus the deposit he already had). He will move to the new area he wants and be able to pick property up at 2004 or lower prices with his increase in salary and marginally increased deposit even taking into account costs of moving. Doom mongers be realistic, some people are sensible and have steady income and low personal credit/debt and can afford to move. Selling your home now you have to be realistic; a flat in a block of 100 with no special features will take a while to sell, 'THE' flat with 'THE' view or feature will always sell. Buyers are buying, but there is a lot of dross and very, very average and shabby property on the market at the moment, the best stuff is still going very fast, just ask the agents! Don't let statistics sway your own judgement, remember 99% of statistics are made up!

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  • mealboy
    Love rating 0
    mealboy said

    Someone should make a television programme called 'Property Snakes and Ladders'. They could highlight both sides of the story by showing buyers searching for new property and undertaking home improvements but also balancing it against the misery and despair associated with housing crashes.

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  • TaxPayer101
    Love rating 0
    TaxPayer101 said

    Waretobuy says "don't let statistics sway your judgement".

    I have to ask where do the statistics in the original article come from ? Rachel tells us Propertyfinder.com. Well do they refer to asking or selling prices - cos not much is selling at the moment so that would be a very small sample to extrapolate from !!

    And would I trust any stats coming from what is effectively no more than an Estate Agent ?

    Come off it ! The only stats that matter will be the Land Registry figures when they are published and even they are manipulated by the vendors offering to "pay your deposit". What they mean is "I will knock 10% off the asking price and you won't have to save a penny".

    No wonder we are in this state. The sooner this manipulation of the market is recognised for what it is and banned the better.

    What the housing market needs is stable, affordable prices which are sustainable in the long term. I know this won't please many on this forum who think they have a 'right' to make money out of property, but the sooner we start thinking about property as somewhere to live and not a source of income the better.

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  • richardcgnfc
    Love rating 0
    richardcgnfc said

    Good article or not, it has certainly provoked a lot of thought!! Cheers!!

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  • Waretobuy
    Love rating 0
    Waretobuy said

    Just another point aimed directly at downtheboozer and likeminded!

    How many people does he know who have equity in their property etc?

    40% of the population who OWN their own homes own them outright with NO mortgage. That is a fact, not a statistic (see previous post)

    I was an estate agent from 93 - 2002 and every person I ever sold a property to has equity! Almost all the people I know who are not FTB have over 25% equity. Not me, I was renting since 2003, and saved up to buy this new place (85% LTV at 4.99 fixed for 2 years my new loan)

    The few, and I mean FEW by comparision with the whole of the mortage market; who have been first time buyers within the last four years may have negative equity IF:

    1. They purchased with less than 5% deposit and got an interest only mortgage.

    If someone was to ask my advice on whether or not that was a good idea as a purchase plan, I'd have to call them mad, never ever, ever leave your self open to negative equity, and that is just begging for it. If you couldn't afford to buy where you live, buy elsewhere, rent it out and rent where you want to be. At the very least you are actually paying something off.

    And to brownbread, if you can afford to sell at a loss (paper equity) do it! Check the prices on www.zoopla.co.uk for what they are/were where you are.

    It is about affordability, the property market always has been. It is a privilige not a right to own a home. Investments in property are about risk, and that goes up and down.

    p.s. sorry if I sound like I am preaching. Rachel excellent article.

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  • jheenan1
    Love rating 0
    jheenan1 said

    We have some advice from someone who bought at the top of the market to upgrade at the beginning of the downfall in prices- truly crazy stuff. She may be right, however history suggests otherwise. In every recession property prices have fallen and continued to fall after the recession has finished. The last recession lasted just 5 qusrters I blieve, but property prices slif for 5 years.

    I also dont buy the argument that property prices will go up fast again due to lack of supply. The 1 million poles returning to their country will see to that.

    However when house prices have finished their re-valuation Britain will be in a much stronger position. it is imperative that we never again allow property prices to get so out of control. We should do this by increasing stamp duty to a flat 5% for all second homes, wether BTL or pleasure.

    Saying that I have just bought a small house in case I am wrong!!

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  • Ashish22
    Love rating 0
    Ashish22 said

    I don't agree with the statements in this article cause if you go up to a five bedroom house they fallen over 20%, meaning they a better buy

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  • richardcgnfc
    Love rating 0
    richardcgnfc said

    FYI on my living/breathing/working example of life I had 10%+ deposit and the downturn has wiped all of this out - even with monthly overpayments of £100...

    Im an Accountant and certainly not stupid - i just wanted to own my own home and couldnt/didnt forsee the problem we are in now. (like the majority of people i suppose)

    I have only been affected in the fact i want to upgrade - but il wait a year and save a deposit/clear mortgage to increase equity and do it when i can!!!

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  • kybosh909
    Love rating 6
    kybosh909 said

    Its about time we saw an article giving advice for all the poeple who got onto the ladder at the wrong time. eg. 2 yrs ago who have paid top wack at the peak of the boom with a 100% mortgage then lost value on their house who now finds theirselves with negative equity and no deposit.

    Myself and my partner bought a house just under 2 yrs ago, we got a good deal on the sale and we were happy knowing that a loss of some value would not be bad since we got it for 5% less than the value. Obviously not expecting a loss as much as 12%.

    We went with the nice man at Bradford and Bingley who did a very good job securing us a 100% deal at a very competitive rate.

    Now, this was our first house and step on the ladder, between us we earn circa 75k a year meaning that we were actually only borrowing our annual salary x 2 so we and BBG were very comfortable with a 100% loan on a fixed rate repayment deal for 2 yrs. OK the rate was not great, 6.4% but at the time the BOE rate was 5.5%.

    Now BBG are down the pan and they are "forcing" us off our books by telling us not only will they not be able to offer us another fixed rate deal but probably wont even be able to offer us a competitive SVR.

    So the situation now is, we have to get off BBG's books or face paying an astronomical rate. we have no deposit and our value has left us with negative equity (not much though). to make it worse our rate didnt move with the BOE rate yet our savings rate has so to come up with a 25% (35K) deposit before our term runs out is near on impossible.

    Worse still BBG have offered to waive the ERC for a period until june as an incentive giving us only 5 months to come up with it. our deal doesnt end until september at which point we will be stung by the ERC.

    And all this despite the fact we could (in the eyes of the bank) pay off the mortgage in 5 years if we really skrimped.

    My biggest gripe is that my hard earned taxes were spent rescuing this company out of the quagmire.

    There are probably loads of folk out their in the same situation, this is the vital rung on the ladder. i know it was slightly reckless doing a 100% in the first place but lets not forget it was one of the only ways at the time for a first timer to get on the ladder. and its the first timers that are needed to complete the chain, the same people who are now needed in the chain to prop up the market. there is no help for us!!!

    Please if anyone is in the same boat and has found a good solution let me know so we can at least stay on the bottom rung!

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  • Poppet45
    Love rating 0
    Poppet45 said

    Nice try with the upgrading idea. Unfortunately it appears to have been well and truly picked apart by anyone giving it more than 30 or so seconds consideration. I think you could well be lumbered with your overpriced flat for some time to come. Still it must be cheap to heat.

    If you want to know what happened during the last crash, people were trapped in 1-bed and studio flats for years thanks to negative equity, largely because demand collapsed as people wouldn't buy rabbit hutches just to 'get on the ladder'.

    Instead those who Foolishly decided not to buy at the top of a bubble, sidestepped flat ownership altogether and bought the sort of 1-2-bed starter home you're currently dreaming of.

    I'm quite surprised financial journalism appealed to you.

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  • marktheharp
    Love rating 0
    marktheharp said

    mealboy, I'm afraid the 'Property Snakes and Ladders' idea isn't a new one. However, you did remind me of this useful site, which I hope might help with the suggestion I made earlier about how much to offer on a property.

    This site gives price histories of properties in a given area. Other sites are available! I have no connection with this one other than I was attracted by the name:

    http://www.propertysnake.co.uk/

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  • Munkstar
    Love rating 0
    Munkstar said

    I will take no advice from anyone who bought a house last year! I cashed in half my shares ISA in 2007 and moved my banking world to the Nationwide building society ready for the crash, based on finance articles i had read ..... but agreed with!

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  • marktheharp
    Love rating 0
    marktheharp said

    nb these are price histories of asking prices. To see previous sale prices try http://www.zoopla.co.uk/

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  • alg1217
    Love rating 0
    alg1217 said

    IMHO property prices are still too high - If banks/bs go back to the tried and tested 3.5 x earnings then this perhaps gives an indication of where prices need to end before they start to climb and then only inline with earnings which may well be stagnant for some time.

    I'm no economist but surely even if Demand is high in the future, the prices cannot be higher than the lenders are prepared to lend.

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  • billyboy121
    Love rating 18
    billyboy121 said

    We will survive, a lot worse things than this have happened to the people of this country. It is getting rather tiresome to have the news dominated by endless talk of financial catastrophe. Things are bad, yes, and will continue to be bad for a while but we will get through this.

    I've just bought a new house from a probate sale. Re some of the comments above (1) a bank has lent me money because I'm paying a big deposit and so am taking on some risk with them (unlike many who in recent years have borrowed up to 110% mortgages with the complicity of the banks) (2) I'm not stupid and I have some money for a deposit because I, like many other people, saw this coming for a long time and I just waited for it to happen. I must admit that I thought that it would come a few years sooner and I’ve been living in a flat that wasn’t my ideal home for a while whilst saving up.

    Also I didn't think that it would come with such a savage recession alongside of it, which along with the credit crunch has scuppered most peoples chances of making a move now, but I doubt that I'm the only person who bided their time and now can finally afford a place that is big enough for them and family.

    That said, I do think that I am one of the fortunate ones and given the choice I would have waited another two years to get a real bargain – I got a decent deal on what I bought and managed to negotiate the price down by 23% from the asking price back in May, but I know that if I were to sell in the next two years (which I do not) then I would make a loss on the price (as well as other costs). To those that are looking to buy and can, wait another 18-24 months for the market to really fall.

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  • Staintunerider
    Love rating 0
    Staintunerider said

    Yorkstyle, TMF definitely doesn't talk up the housing market especially when Cliff D'Arcy is in town.

    For all you doomsters out there, who probably never bought a house first time around and will likely miss the boat again trying to time the bottom. Where do you get your crystal balls ? Woolworths Broken stock ? I don't know what's going to happen with certainty and neither do you in fact if you have never bought a house, your opinion on property is worth diddly squat. How many of you say with absolute certainty it's going to drop and you even give a figure, some lunatics(who probably live above a kbeab shop) say even 50 percent. Numpties

    Just looking at selling currently near Heathrow area. Shortage of property on the market as so many sitting tight. Yes my house has dropped 20 percent from peak but i bought in 99. You can just about buy a 1 bed flat around here at todays prices for what a 3 bed detached cost in 99.

    I know many local agents personally and i know how rough last year was. This year in 1 month they have sold 12 properties..that's 1 agent.

    For all you who keep repeating it's going to drop another 15/20, what do you know ? What do I know ?

    But as there was such a lack of activity last year, people have to move very often, jobs, divorce, emmigration, bigger house etc etc, this can't be delayed for ever. Plus apart from you doomsters a lot of people are pragmatic about the market, they bought often long ago, have equity and know if it drops this applies to all property.

    And don't anyone mention average wage variables, this is a rubbish indicator.

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  • comptroller99
    Love rating 0
    comptroller99 said

    "For all you who keep repeating it's going to drop another 15/20, what do you know ? What do I know ?"

    I'll freely admit I do not know where property prices will be in 12 months time and, if they have fallen, whether that will be "the bottom."

    If you seriously believe prices will rise act on your belief not the opinions in the article or of other posters.

    One point people seemed to have missed is that a house is somewhere to live, it is not an investment, if you can get finance and afford the payments go ahead and buy somewhere or trade up, if not the whole debate is irrelevent.

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  • bimber
    Love rating 44
    bimber said

    "One point people seemed to have missed is that a house is somewhere to live, it is not an investment, if you can get finance and afford the payments go ahead and buy somewhere or trade up, if not the whole debate is irrelevent."

    But you don't need to buy one to live in one, even if you can afford it. Had the Fool pushed the rental option more over the last few years their readership (and writers) would have more savings to pump into their share service now. They had to get the commission from those mortgage brokers whilst they could, I suppose.

    "Where do you get your crystal balls[unnecessary space removed]?"

    No need for hocus pocus, just read the news and apply some logic.

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  • billyboy121
    Love rating 18
    billyboy121 said

    Staintunerider

    I thought about your post, maybe one way to look at this is to identify what was keeping prices on the upward curve first. I thought of the follow (doubtless there are other factors):

    Earnings and big bonuses particularly in the financial sector were driving up prices at the top end, creating trickle down as those on the ladder moved up

    Industry performing well, encouraging influx of foreign investment and workers, putting pressure on existing stock

    Price increase cycle leading to speculation on the housing market at ever increasing rate

    Availability of cheap money to banks led to liberal lending policy at increasing levels

    These factors are now absent from the marketplace. In their place :

    Recession leading to company and individual insolvencies and job losses over the coming months and years

    Tightening on availability and cost of money to banks plus risk averse policy due to sub prime issues leading to cautious lending

    Successive interest rate cuts having little effect on the availability of credit to business or consumer borrowers

    Downward pressure on prices creating spectre of deflation

    Massive growth in amount of properties available for rental

    Given the above, I would have thought that there’s a very good chance that prices will continue to drop. Any thoughts?

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  • GTech10
    Love rating 0
    GTech10 said

    Wasn't a shortage of housing stock also to blame for house prices going up?

    I don't think this fundemental problem is going to be corrected in the next generation - due to more families breaking up, more single people, more immigration.

    A lot of people who bought properties did so as an investment with a 10 - 20 year horizon and if they have money, will be looking at the market now with the intention of buying to reduce the average cost of their portfolios.

    So while some people are seeing doom and gloom, others are seeing long term opportunities!

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  • MrRee007
    Love rating 0
    MrRee007 said

    There are opportunities out there, but - sadly, trying to sell a 1 Bedroomed Flat is like selling a holiday home in the Gaza Strip. So, the chances of moving up market are slim at the very best I'm afraid!

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  • Staintunerider
    Love rating 0
    Staintunerider said

    Most people do buy houses as somewhere to live. But because of the world we live in we have all had to wise up financially. With the internet and sites like TMF we can wise up and share information more.

    I do not(my opinion only) think prices will shoot up. The world of credit has changed remarkably. Will they drop/ will they stabilise ?? These seem to be the 2 scenarios to consider.

    Property is a desirable asset, it is tangible, of all assets it has the added benefit that you can live in it. You can't live in a bar of gold or a share portfolio.

    Interest rates are incredibly low, yes you need to pass a lot of criteria to get the cash these days, lending has changed. Affordability is good regardless of the amount you borrow which will look scary.

    Now I am selling and I am going to rent for a while because I need to be free to move. Gordon Clown can't steal a chunk out of my bricks and mortar investment but he can steal my cash in the bank, oh it'll be the same figure, but he can devalue sterling or the markets can do it for him. I believe people are going to come back(just my opinion) to property in a big way. Nobody trusts pensions, fund managers are plonkers at best criminals at worst. Nobody trusts shares. Cash ?? but with sterling under assault ??

    We live on an overcrowded island, developers have stopped building, we are obsessed with property in this country. I am half German I know the difference between Continentals view on property and our own, this desire in Englanders(sorry Taff and Jock, you too) will not go away and hasn't.

    Property is so tangible it will self adjust, i Sterling beame a bana republic currency your house will be a safer place for your investment because it will adjust automatically as an investment and a place to live and enjoy your life. It stands the test of time and will come through when Icelandic banks are not remembered and childen are born who never heard of woolworths.

    It's the only thing you will ever buy bar a few knickknacks that will outlast you and have your grandchildren (or somebody else's) living in it when you and I are long gone !

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  • Staintunerider
    Love rating 0
    Staintunerider said

    Most people do buy houses as somewhere to live. But because of the world we live in we have all had to wise up financially. With the internet and sites like TMF we can wise up and share information more.

    I do not(my opinion only) think prices will shoot up. The world of credit has changed remarkably. Will they drop/ will they stabilise ?? These seem to be the 2 scenarios to consider.

    Property is a desirable asset, it is tangible, of all assets it has the added benefit that you can live in it. You can't live in a bar of gold or a share portfolio.

    Interest rates are incredibly low, yes you need to pass a lot of criteria to get the cash these days, lending has changed. Affordability is good regardless of the amount you borrow which will look scary.

    Now I am selling and I am going to rent for a while because I need to be free to move. Gordon Clown can't steal a chunk out of my bricks and mortar investment but he can steal my cash in the bank, oh it'll be the same figure, but he can devalue sterling or the markets can do it for him. I believe people are going to come back(just my opinion) to property in a big way. Nobody trusts pensions, fund managers are plonkers at best criminals at worst. Nobody trusts shares. Cash ?? but with sterling under assault ??

    We live on an overcrowded island, developers have stopped building, we are obsessed with property in this country. I am half German I know the difference between Continentals view on property and our own, this desire in Englanders(sorry Taff and Jock, you too) will not go away and hasn't.

    Property is so tangible it will self adjust, i Sterling beame a bana republic currency your house will be a safer place for your investment because it will adjust automatically as an investment and a place to live and enjoy your life. It stands the test of time and will come through when Icelandic banks are not remembered and childen are born who never heard of woolworths.

    It's the only thing you will ever buy bar a few knickknacks that will outlast you and have your grandchildren (or somebody else's) living in it when you and I are long gone !

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  • GTech10
    Love rating 0
    GTech10 said

    I feel for those who bought 1 & 2 bed flats in new developments

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  • BigScaryHaynet
    Love rating 0
    BigScaryHaynet said

    “If you're thinking about trading up to a home with two or three bedrooms, things are looking good......”

    Things are looking good, in relation to houses, for most people.

    If house prices are dropping, then: -

    For First Time Buyers - A first house will now cost less than before, so more people can afford to buy their first house.

    For anyone moving up the ladder - the price difference will now be less.

    For any house being sold on a death -if the proceeds are being inherited by children, or grandchildren, and they use the money towards buying their house, then there is no net effect. (10% less for the house being sold; 10% less for the houses being bought.) Additionally Inheritance tax following the sale may be less.

    Often, stamp duty and selling expenses will be less.

    So, it seems like all good news to me, unless: -

    You are involved in estate agency, conveyancing or arranging finance. (My heart bleeds for you; as opposed to me being bled by you.)

    You are into negative equity, and have to move.

    The building societies/mutuals should soon have money to spare for mortgages, especially if the economic downturn is causing people to save instead of spend. They have got to do something with the money they take in. Their role is, simplified a little, to take in savings, and use it to provide mortgages.

    As in most situations, there will be a winner for every loser.

    It’s just a shame that this time, some of the losers can spend fortunes funding Public Relations exercises to push their vested interests.

    Would it be bad news for buyers and private sellers of cars if car prices were going down 10 or 20%? That would perhaps be bad news for the carmakers and sellers, but not for the general population. Just the same for houses.

    P.S. Did Property and Home approach propertyfinder for the information on which this article is based, or, out of kindness, did propertyfinder provide the information, without even being asked!

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  • bimber
    Love rating 44
    bimber said

    "i Sterling beame a bana republic currency your house will be a safer place for your investment because it will adjust automatically as an investment and a place to live and enjoy your life"

    The value of housing is closely related to average earnings, because the only income it can produce is rent and renters don't do it on leverage. The price can obviously fluctuate according to the amount of credit made available for purchases and the mood of the population. If Britain becomes a banana republic, or even if it goes the way of Iceland (which we are never far away from lately - a mere 3 hours on 10th October, acccording to one minister and we're in a worse way since then), then the value of the house will fall dramatically. It will still be a house, and you will still get the same rental value in terms of UK average wages, but the rental value will not buy the same standard of living as it would today.

    The domesday scenario may not come to pass but it is almost a cert that Britain will become relatively poorer when compared to China, Brazil and other countries around the world. Perfect timing is impossible but all the signs show that at the moment putting your money in defensive dividend paying stocks with a global outlook is preferable to a UK house. You can't live in a share portfolio but it can pay your rent. You can't live in gold either, but you can sell to rent and buy gold with the proceeds. In 2004 the average house was worth almost 700oz of gold, now that figure is closer to 235 and history suggests it could go below 100. A 7x bigger house for a decade of renting? Easy money!

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  • bimber
    Love rating 44
    bimber said

    "some lunatics(who probably live above a kbeab shop) say even 50 percent. Numpties"

    It's time to start listening to those numpties. If you consider the "stealth devaluation" of sterling and value UK houses against the US dollar then the fall would be over 40% already (surely they'll be queueing up to buy by now?!). According to Moneyweek, analysis of banking crises shows that on average house prices fall for 6 years and lose 36% of their real value. I dare say our crisis wil be worse than average and this time it's global.

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  • Staintunerider
    Love rating 0
    Staintunerider said

    the trouble with your argument Bimber is the world you inhabit is your own, most people are not going to buy gold or any other kind of financial product especially after their experience with pension products and what they have seen happening with shares. Their eyes are also opened to the existence of all these sophisticated financial products such as derivatives and the problems caused by these.

    People want tangible investments and they are going to want it under their own control from now on. They also want somewhere to live. They understand housing and mortgages. Most are not going to go out and invest their money like a fund manager looking for yields. You might do this and good luck to you but don;t make the mistake of thinking that everybody else will think like you. I think you like complexity and detail and it may work for you, but this is not the median, most are not like you.

    The one thing i completely disagree with you on is using average wages as a benchmark. Don't get fooled by statistics, this has long been a phoney indicator and completely worthless. People use multiple household salaries to get mortgages at the lower level(this alone throws this stat right out the window) but many are on 50k plus and sometimes 2 salaries of this in the same household. In addition very often with the collusion of employers they exaggerate their salaries to get the money they need. This has been going on for a long time well, decades. Many also have equity of significance which is never taken into account by fans of this indicator who seem fascinated by it like rabbits in headlights.

    I think the city and pension managers are going to have a hard time making even the stock maket attractive to the man in the street again. As for more complex products forget it, they will be finished. Even Buffet said he feared derivatives, nobody is going to invest in anything they don't understand any more. As for Gold, there are no guarantees, it can go down as well as up, in addition how save is your investment ? I wouldn't mind betting a few will lose their shirts in the future on a gold ponzi like scheme where the stock was never bought and the certificates issued are worthless aka Madoff.

    I think your arguments are far too technical and in reality you will find yourself out of tune with where things are going property wise in the future. The one point i agree is a worry is sterling, I am selling and i am concerned about being being exposed to it. I know my money in a house will self correct in the long term to value, sterling on the other hand that's a difficult one, although Soros seems to think it's about right at the mo. His buddy from previous days who rcently said it was finished I don't care for his arguments as i don;t think they are valid and he is too detached to have valid opinion. I got the impression he was a bit f a dumb texan and Soros was the brain behind the partnership. I'd go on Soros's opinion, if he said it was dead I would belive him.

    I will go back to property in the long run here or abroad purely because Sterling is such a worry, your dividend stocks may be of interest or a Euro account. But As far as property is concerned in the UK I think you'll find yourself out of step with the future reality of the only investment people in the UK trust over the long term.

    If sterling gets massively devalued, wages will rise and houses in 20 years time will be worth millions. Personally I always wanted the euro but i don't think they'd have us at the moment and my fellow brits have been too emotional over sterling for too long. As soon as they see it's massive decline they'll want to dump it like a family member who's just been had up fr robbery !

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  • GeorgeL1980
    Love rating 0
    GeorgeL1980 said

    Just a couple of quick pointers. If you have as little as 5% deposit Nationwide will lend you the money. The affordability calculator is realistic. However, there rates are not and they are not flexible at all. Be careful to get all your telephone correspondence backup with written confirmation, because you will find you get a varied amount of information and a lot of it doesn't stack up. After the way Nationwide have treated me with my latest mortgage application I don't really feel comfortable recommending them. My hands were tied.

    For those of you in the position of negative equity, but with a smaller affordable mortgage and fortunate enough to earn good money. I would suggest you overpay as much as you can. If you’re on a low rate tracker or even SVR you should make the most of it. If you can afford to clear you loan at a faster rate then you will reap the rewards when the market starts to recover.

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  • LibranLady
    Love rating 0
    LibranLady said

    Hi can I ask a question, some advice? I am not really that financially astute. I would like to know if this is an ideal time to buy my council house. That is, assuming I would be able to get a mortgage, as I have some debts. How much deposit would one generally have to save for, and how much should I allow for solicitors costs, surveys, etc?

    Thank you

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  • dcardale
    Love rating 0
    dcardale said

    Don't blame the developers for building the wrong type of properties (too many flats, not enough family houses) - it's the planning system that dictates the mix.

    See: www.betterhomes4all.org.uk

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  • GeorgeL1980
    Love rating 0
    GeorgeL1980 said

    Libran Lady - A couple of things you need to know. Your council house is not going to increase in value for some time. In fact this year it’s going to be worth less money in December than it is now. My advice to you would be to save as much as you can towards a deposit. At present I believe there is only nationwide that will offer a 95% LTV product. If you can afford to save a 5% deposit over the next 12 - 18 months you will be on to a winner. Hopefully by sometime next year there will be a bit confidence in the market and more importantly for you bank lending. If the cash flow is injected the banks will start to lend to each other more freely, and in turn to you and I. That will mean the products on offer will be more realistic than Nationwide's current 7. something % fixed rate mortgage for 95%LTV. As for Solicitors fees; Without a chain expect to pay someone like Shoosmiths about £1000 including the searches. If the property is under 180k when you come to by it you will not be required to pay any stamp duty. Above that threshold and up to 250k you are expected to pay 1% of the purchase price. And god forbid 3% for anything about £250k purchase price.

    So in short if you intend to stay in this property for a long time save your deposit and buy as soon as you are ready. The short term value of the house will mean little to you in 10 years time. Just be sure to keep you ear to the ground regard the stamp duty holiday. Paying up to a possible extra £1800 on stamp duty from your savings could have a big impact on your deposit.

    I hope that helps a little?

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  • chasbmw
    Love rating 5
    chasbmw said

    Houses are not a certain store of value..............They can and will drop in value for long periods of time in terms of inflation adjusted values. House prices in the long term seem to be related to a long term trend in value increase of around 2.5% P.a., but in a house price recssion than prices will undershoot the trend as much as they have overshot it over the past few years. Quite a bit more reductions in prices to come, especially as the unemployment results of this recession has only just started.

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  • bimber
    Love rating 44
    bimber said

    "the trouble with your argument Bimber is the world you inhabit is your own, most people are not going to buy gold or any other kind of financial product..."

    I'm not expecting people to act the way I suggest they could , in fact I still own my own (unmortgaged) house . I expect people who originally believed property only went up will now put their faith in the property cycle , but only the property/sterling one . They will neglect the property/average wage cycle or the property/purchasing power cycle so when their house is worth the same number of pounds as they paid for it they will consider that they've broken even (but will have niggling doubts about the effect of infation on its value) . At this point their house may be worth half as much in terms of average earnings , in a country where those earnings can buy fewer goods , but they will once again be happy with their property investment . It doesn't matter that a house is worth millions when a loaf of bread is worth hundreds , all that matters is how we get there . If people can afford the high interest rates on top of the higher taxation we will need in the future then their debt will be eroded to nothing but if not they will fall behind on payments and lose their home . If instead we continue with the debt deflation spiral then house prices and earnings will both fall , which is no use to someone with a mortgage so people will lose their home . If this spiral leads to an Iceland style default then don't expect wages to rise by the amount the currency is devalued . In both cases gold should do better than property - money , not currency , is king !

    Report on 30 January 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • elainesteed
    Love rating 0
    elainesteed said

    Bricks and Morter will find its own level by supply and demand

    mostly people would like to own their own home

    It is not that people do not want to buy "they do"

    however its almost impossible for a first time buyer

    Even with a 10% deposit the cheapest rate of interest is 7.5% fixed far too high and too expensive for them 10% deposit plus solicitors valuatuin fees etc and possible stamp duty

    If First time buyers do noy buy then nothing will sell

    When a first time buyer purchases a property the property they purchase will be vacated by the owners who will usually buying somwhwere else to live and hen the next people in the chain move on and so on

    With credit tight and rates only low if you have a very big deposit. The chain usually breaks down and nothing gets sold or purchased

    If you look at a graph of the price of property from 1960 untill now there are peaks and troughs but the trend is generally up.

    For people who prfer to rent or have to rent just remember you are paying someone elses mortgage.

    property cant disapear as easily as stocks and shares or be manipulated by stock brokers seeling short or long

    and I am not an estate agent

    Report on 30 January 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • GeorgeL1980
    Love rating 0
    GeorgeL1980 said

    Regardless of bubble burst houses will always be a sound investment over a longer period. I understand we are very unlikely to see a surge of demand or house price rises like we have over the last decade. They will recover in time though. We currently experiencing a very unusual trend where its more beneficial to rent than own. Just like the boom, the recession won't last forever, regardless of how badly Gordon the moron continues to get it wrong. Perhaps being unemployed today is a blessing!? After all, those of us left in a job are going front the cost of the bailout through a tax hammering. Two kids, single parent, no job? Should read, new house and enough income support to get by and then some....

    Report on 30 January 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Staintunerider
    Love rating 0
    Staintunerider said

    Libranlady It;s always a good time to buy a council house because basically you are ripping off the taxpayer when you get a whopping discount ! You got a council house because you were too poor to buy a house on the free market, then you want to cash in and make some money. It shouldn;t be allowed but although I am a fan we can blame Thatcher for this. Really you should should hang your head in shame beause you are a socialist with conservative tendencies. If you had any moral conviction which you don;t because you pose the question, you would stay a tenant ! You have the thing for life what more do you want ?

    Bimber, you could make buying a loaf of bread complicated ! One thing i learnt in sales was KISS , keep it simple stupid. You can always tell those who are up against it whose very move determines their destiny versus those armchair generals who talk from a position of comfort, unfortunately I think you fall into the latter category. You probably think you are extremely clever with your compex detailed arguments but actually they betray you as someone whose life will probably never change from your current circumstance, safe, comfortable and ultimately boring. Trying to make things complex for your own amusement, waiting for God or Godot !

    What is going on in the world is affecting real people, making children and families homeless, making people kill themselves, stopping people sleeping at night at the very best. And don;t say they are to blame, I have worked in the city 20+ years and we all know the real criminals now, Goodwin, Hornby and the rest. These are the modern day vampires, all ordinary peole ever wanted was a home not endless wealth that no man could spend in his lifetime !

    Report on 31 January 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • bimber
    Love rating 44
    bimber said

    Stain, you worked in the city for 20+ years and you think my posts above are complicated? Well, nothing surprises me any more! Perhaps if city people had understood the complexity of the system a little more they'd not have made such big losses.

    Anyone with a little knowledge and an analytical mind will appreciate that I keep my posts on Motley Fool as simple as can be - they have to be, the IQ of this site is pretty low, as we can see from all the positive housing articles since the crash began. Viewing a house in terms of wages rather than sterling is a very simple concept which will hopefully make people think about what the value of a house, car, holiday etc is and how much work they want to do to get one. If I wanted to get more complex I would have gone into how the changing quality of housing stock, changing make-up of households and population demographics, perceptions of long term interest rates and aggregate job security can affect the equilibrium of the house price to wages ratio. The fact that I didn't should tell you that I do keep things simple, but at the same time I don't think there's anything to gain from keeping it stupidly simple.

    I think you tried to make a personal attack. Don't do that, it's against the forum rules and you don't know what you're talking about.

    If people only wanted a house and not the wealth they would not have withdrawn the wealth to buy fleeting happiness. If they just wanted somewhere to live then, when renting was cheaper than buying, they would have ignored the 15+% annual housing inflation and avoided the 125% mortgage. What people wanted was tax-free capital gains and a place to live. Your vampires gave the people what they wanted and rewarded the staff and shareholders greatly. The problem is that it was for the most part a Ponzi scheme - the majority of the returns came from new money entering the market. When new money stops coming in there is nothing to support the asset prices other than their intrinsic worth, ie the rental value of the property. If something can't go on forever it will stop.

    Report on 31 January 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • TheBankManager
    Love rating 0
    TheBankManager said

    We live in a democracy, where journalists have a right to undertake articles that are (hopefully?) factual.

    Whilst an article may not be applicable to every single reader, then so be it. In the words of the great Brian (oh hail Monty Python), "we're all individuals".

    Therefore, I say shame on all of you who have sought to have a slanging match against Rachel Robson, who in undertaking this article, has researched information and conveyed information to all of us Fools.

    IF THIS BENEFITS JUST ONE PERSON WHO READS THE ARTICLE AND THEY ARE ABLE TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE INFORMATION, THEN WELL DONE TO THEM AND WELL DONE TO RACHEL.

    To the rest of you sceptics, you are also entitled to your opinion, but some of the comments made areaownright rude and again, shame on you.

    Report on 01 February 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • RogerGLewis
    Love rating 2
    RogerGLewis said

    It's not often I find myself in agreement with a bank manager but here here, Bank Manager.

    One observation of buying a property rather than renting, assuming that you are not able to live somewhere rent free there really is a double benefit in buying a house even with periods of negative equity, which probably in most cases won't last forever, look at your mortgage payments as saving your rent, it is a form of saving and over the long term will for many people provide a valuable tax free nest egg when at retirement one perhaps moves into smaller cheaper accommodation or supported accommodation.

    Aspiring fund managers, gold tycoons, and arbitrage wizards however good they may be have to pay the rent if they rent, if you need to pay for your accommodation you might as well buy as rent, you get something at the end of it in all likelihood, with renting you don't.

    This might be too simplistic a view for some fools tastes but it works for me. so regardless of the inflation adjusted, price/wage ratio,banking Armageddon,credit crunch,buy now or wait, is it the halfway point to the bottom of the market stuff.I still say buying your own home is way preferable to renting in the longrun, which may not be true for everyone, but it has been for me and most of the people I know and for as long as I remember. Just be sensible about what you can afford, which applies equally well to being sensible about what you can afford to rent. Any get rich quick advice on anything is best treated with devout sceptisism, be your own individual and be honest about your own needs and means and stick to your guns. The tendency of some posters to want to bully others into their point of view is rather sad. I take a lot of inspiration from the following, A once famous poem.

    The Desiderata

    desiderata - by max ehrmann

    Go placidly amid the noise and haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence.

    As far as possible, without surrender, be on good terms with all persons. Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even to the dull and the ignorant, they too have their story. Avoid loud and aggressive persons, they are vexations to the spirit.

    If you compare yourself with others, you may become vain and bitter; for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself. Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans. Keep interested in your own career, however humble; it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time.

    Exercise caution in your business affairs, for the world is full of trickery. But let this not blind you to what virtue there is; many persons strive for high ideals, and everywhere life is full of heroism. Be yourself. Especially, do not feign affection. Neither be cynical about love, for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment it is perennial as the grass.

    Take kindly to the counsel of the years, gracefully surrendering the things of youth. Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune. But do not distress yourself with imaginings. Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness.

    Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself. You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

    Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life, keep peace in your soul.

    With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world.

    Be cheerful. Strive to be happy.

    Max Ehrmann c.1920

    Report on 01 February 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Waretobuy
    Love rating 0
    Waretobuy said

    I am also very disappointed to read many of the posts and comments made by people who sound like they should know better and give out 'tainted' advice and disgruntled personal opinion to those without knowledge who seek it.

    Some people here are forgetting that the vast majority buy a property as a home, get a mortgage as a means to an end, and can't wait to clear that debt.

    When the time comes and they have repaid the debt, the value of the property is irrelevant save for insurance valuations etc.

    Too many 'investors' got caught up in the market due to increased equity in their property and decided 'fairly' sensibily to invest in a second property as a pension. If it worked then fair enough, they should be aware, it IS like any other risk and may succeed or may fail.

    For those of you who are currently considering buying.......

    There is NEVER a bad time to buy a home provided you can AFFORD it.

    Forget if the prices drop straight after you've bought it, this has never bothered those who buy new cars, in fact any cars.

    As long as you take precautions and don't lie about your finances and delude yourself, even having negative equity isn't such a bad thing as you are lowering the debt every single time you make a payment.

    There are scenarios where people will have to stay in a one bedroom flat as a couple with two children, but hey, stuff happens. Eventually, as for hundreds of thousands before you, your debt with decrease and the equity will increase and you will be able to move, it just takes time.

    The golden rules:

    Always look at things long term, plan your finances carefully, and envisage every set of circumstances.

    If you are buying for investment always, always keep 30% equity minimum and read the small print, if you can't afford the deposit, you can't afford the risk!

    (p.s Qualifications:- I have managed property portfolio's worth in excess of £15m, bought and sold properties worth £2m+ at auctions and ran several chains of estate agents, as well as been declared bankrupt. Experienced?????)

    Report on 01 February 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • ManOfJudah
    Love rating 0
    ManOfJudah said

    Ok. To get dow to the practicality of this, I bought my current 2-bed property in 2005 for £155k on 50% shared ownership scheme. My conditions have improved a little bit since then and I'm looking to move with my wife to a bigger £185k house. My property was valued b/w £170-£190k Dec '08. Given the fact that good mortgage deals start at 25% deposit will it be wise selling now so as to move? I haven't got any extra funds to put into the deposit as there are other fees i'm more concerned with. Can anybody advise?

    Report on 02 February 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • shepherd2008
    Love rating 0
    shepherd2008 said

    bimber - Over complicating any issue is simply a smug way of trying to baffle the uneducated with male cow poo!

    Kiss sounds like a good idea as does PPPPPPP. Prior Planning & Preperation Prevents P*** Poor Performance. The elaborate reasoning and tireless analogies that some posts come out with are hilarious.

    Banks have simply lent too much, to people who listened to vendors & agents to much, who then overinflated their own financial situation too much to enable them to buy property that was well over valued - simple. By KISS and plenty of PPPPPPP people shouldnt get themselves in such a mess. Its listening to the drone of statistics and advise from 'armchair experts in property' that people need to refrain from.

    Report on 03 February 2009  |  Love thisLove  0 loves

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