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Is Selling To Rent A Potential Disaster?

Emma Lunn
by Lovemoney Staff Emma Lunn on 24 September 2008  |  Comments 47 comments

Should you cash in on the property slump by selling your home?

Over a few beers at the weekend one of my friends announced that she and her husband had put their house on the market.

`Oh, have you found somewhere you want to buy?' I said.

`Well, we're not looking at the moment,' she replied, `we're going to rent for a bit and see what happens.'

The plan, it seems, is to wait for property prices to fall, then either buy a similar-sized property for less money and or buy a bigger place for the same amount they sell their two-up two-down terrace for.

Good luck to them, I say, but isn't it a risky strategy? It's certainly not an uncommon one at the moment. But like all cunning plans, it has a list of pros and cons.

Pros

They could be right of course. Having watched the value of their property rise steadily for the past five years or so since they bought it, my friends could cash in on the equity and hop off the property ladder. If they rent in the same town where they live at the moment, they'll probably pay around the same amount in rent that they used to pay on their former mortgage. Meanwhile their cash can sit in a nice high-interest savings account.

While watching their savings grow at between 6 and 7% APR, they can keep an eye on the property market and be ready to swoop in when prices fall. Then they could pick up a bigger and better property for the same money they got for their current place. Or they might even make a profit as well as having a bigger home.

When they put in an offer they'll effectively be first-time buyers which will make them a good choice for sellers who don't want to get caught up in a chain.

They are also considering upping sticks altogether and moving to a different part of the country. Renting somewhere new will give them the chance to work out if they like their new location.

Cons

But there are also some downsides to their plan. Firstly, by selling, then renting, then buying somewhere else they'll end up paying two lots of costs.

When they sell they'll be hit with estate agents fees, solicitor's fees, removal costs and charges for storing any furniture etc that doesn't fit into their rental property. Of course they'll also have to stump up a deposit as well as pay the rent when they become tenants. When they finally buy another property they'll be faced another lot of solicitor's fees and moving costs and also have to find several grand to pay the stamp duty on their new place.

Secondly, there's the hassle. Moving house is one of life's most stressful experiences and the thought of doing it too often fills me with dread. In the current market selling their place could take months and there's the risk they'll be gazundered by unscrupulous buyers trying to bag a bargain.

Being a tenant doesn't come without its problems either. First you have to find someone you want to live, get through the landlord's reference and credit checks and hope he or she is responsible enough to keep the property in a good condition and treat you nicely as tenants.

When it comes to buying again next year or the year after, who knows what state the property market will be in? Despite the doomsters' constant talk of a crash and prices falling from anything from 5 to 20% over the next couple of years, what if the opposite happens? Unlikely although it might seem now, there's always the outside chance that prices will stabilise then start to rise again - and where will that leave my now-renting friends? Faced with buying a small or less desirable property than they formerly owned, that's where.

So is selling to rent a good plan or a recipe for disaster?

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Comments (47)

  • muncher100
    Love rating 0
    muncher100 said

    This is exactly what my in-laws have done. They sold their 3 bed semi in April last year for the asking price. Moved into rented accommodation and are now looking to downsize to a smaller house in a better area. The plan is to have a small mortgage so when they retire they have a nice pot of money and a lovely house. I think they have done the right thing WHEN they did it, if people are looking to do the same thing now, it may be more risky. For two reasons:

    1) It will take longer to sell your house
    2) The sale price will probably be lower than you wanted.

    These two factors mean that house prices will need to drop a lot further to achieve the same result.

    If people want to do it now they may have missed the boat...

    Report on 24 September 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • dyfiman
    Love rating 0
    dyfiman said

    Sell your house and rent?
    My wife and I did just that in August 2007.
    Our victorian Terrace took just hours to tempt
    several buyers into offering on the asking price.
    Two days later one had offered £5,000 more and the feeling in our household was that we could have asked for an even bigger top-up to clinch the sale.

    At the time the housing market was still bursting with health and quite few aquaintances thought us slightly potty to be selling up.

    As for us, we had experinced two housing recessions
    and the climate felt chillingly familiar in late August 2007.

    Having bought for just £92k in late 1995 we decided
    that a mammoth profit was something we should take.
    that is, to convert large paper profits into real pounds lying in a swathe of high interest accounts
    we felt would be available if the market mood started to change and the nation's economic binge
    turned into crunch.

    And, change there was, within a couple of months,
    as we settled into a large, Victorian, rented property with gravel drive and massive back garden, 5 bedrooms and a kitchen the size of that in the Dorchester Hotel.
    Renting was so sweet - until five months on when the property magnate of a landlord delivered
    a bomshell statement.

    He had gone out to Spain to expand his property empire previously and suddenly needed to release capital. Yes, I know I wanted a long let, he said,
    but I am triggering the six-month clause.
    The reality?? Unknown to us, mortgage companies back in South Wales had been chasing him avidly
    for debts. Their agents, gathering details on tenants in his properties, told us as much.
    The landlord put the house we were in up for sale at £500k. We had to pack up and leave, with all
    our possessions and those of two teenage children.

    So we found a modern townhouse to rent at a fancy price just outside Cardiff in a large, but sedate
    village. Two weeks later, the owner's wife suddenly pulled out of the rental deal because she
    could not meet the deadline to join her husband out in the US.

    Panic became muted after finding a large modern house around the corner in a decent location and getting a decent reduction on the £1,500 a month
    rent the owning company was asking.

    The teenage brats loved it, my partner loved it even more, and we moved in, patting ourselves on the back for turning potential disaster into
    domestic triumph.
    Little did we know that, as the deal was concluded,
    the North West property company owners were facing their own disaster.
    Within weeks receivers were called in and took over control for mortgage companies of our rented
    property - and more than 20 other luxury homes acrosss the UK.
    All this unfolded while my partner and the
    offspring were in New Zealand.

    We could not believe it, hit by disaster thrice within months. Who said selling and renting was the bee's knees!

    Our resolution was to be at the eventual auction
    where the property went under the hammer this week for more than £100,000 BELOW the original sale price.
    But not to us, unfortunately. We were second in the race and left London for Wales buoyed only
    by the fact that the new landlord, so far, still doesn't seem to know something important.

    Most rental deals are for six months, or a year.
    However, we managed to secure a two-year deal
    and as we had continued paying rent to the receivers pending auction, the tenancy was valid and apparently has to be honoured by the new landlord. We have top legal advice on this from my brother-in-law, a partner in a top London
    solicitors firm.

    So we await a letter or phone call to sort
    things out, still jarred by tumultous events that
    would have tried the patience of Jobe!

    The consolation is that we still have pots of money in the various ccounts, a valid tenancy, and
    the prospect of buying back into the main market IF prices drop further as many experts predict.

    We also have the experience of preparing for, and trying to buy at auction which is a riskier though cheaper route back into property ownership.

    The lesson for a lot of you folks out there thinking of selling and renting is obvious.

    Just because Jessica Olivia Barnconversion in
    The Cotswolds is doing it with her banker husband,Jeremy, because "everyone's doing it, darling"........ don't believe it's a cakewalk.

    It's always a cruel world out there.

    Regards from Phil, retired journalist, and a staunch fan of all that the Motley Fool is about.
    END

    Report on 24 September 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Mak2423243
    Love rating 0
    Mak2423243 said

    I sold 11 months ago at the top of the boom. I paid 150k 10 years ago and sold for 500k after spending 10k on it. Now I just take it easy. The houses on the same road are now worth 420k and I reckon in 2 years that I could pick up the same house for 250k. Easy money - and I'll do the same in the next boom and bust!. As for nightmare renting - those examples are just a bit unlucky I think. The beauty of boom and bust - thanks Gordon! 250k for nothing - I just wonder who pays for this in the end - probably the taxpayers by the looks of things.

    Report on 24 September 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • MonsterMixer
    Love rating 0
    MonsterMixer said

    Could selling to rent be a potential disaster?

    Well, I guess that depends on where you store your money in the meantime... with the markets as they are at the moment, storing the proceeds as cash in a deposit account isn't even safe.

    And some people who sold to rent play really fast and loose with their family's wellbeing, investing the proceeds in commodities companies and blue-sky AIM shares!

    Report on 24 September 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • clincoln1
    Love rating 0
    clincoln1 said

    We decided to sell and rent in April this year and havent looked back ! I advertised the house with HouseLadder which cost all of 249 pounds and you get a board. No body needs Estate Agents anymore, on our same road we had other houses up for sale so a board outside your house sells it not an estate agent !

    Our buyer drove past to look at another property saw the board and knocked on my door. By that evening we had accepted a price of 240K we had marketed it for 249,950k i phoned round and sorted out my own HIPS at a low cost and also got a good conveyencing deal from a local solicitor in all it cost me around 600 pounds as opposed to £10K at an Estate Agent who personally i think does nothing.

    We have now banked our money with Northen Rock with it being Government owned and the safest to bank with and we are renting. Yes we had to put down a large deposit to rent but we will receive this back and the rent is mostly paid by the interest we earn on the money we have so in effect we are living "RENT FREE"

    We are looking to buy again to step up further on the ladder to get something bigger but that WILL come down in price.

    I noticed the other day we sold our place in April at 240k and a property now on the same road which is similar to our old place is now up for 199 k
    is that not a 17% drop already ?!

    Its worked out fine and dandy for us so far .....

    Report on 24 September 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • DynamoHill
    Love rating 1
    DynamoHill said

    I'd say probably now you'd have to say the sell to rent option is far more borderline than last year.

    Prices to achieve a sale for anything other than the best in class property are already 15-20% down on last year's peak. Given that a good average prediction of where prices will go is ~30% down from peak there are less gains to be had from future falls.

    However, as property tends to reduce slowly this could take years and keeping cash in fixed rate bonds spread around companies to keep the full protection would still be gaining you 6%+ a year.

    You could also find that houses that failed to sell come back on for rent at a cheap price.

    I know of one in my South Devon town - didn't sell for 475k - on the rental market for £1100pm. That's a bargain compared to mortgages (a interest only mortgage of 400k a 6% is $2000pm).

    Report on 24 September 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Cliff D'Arcy
    Love rating 26
    Cliff D'Arcy said

    I sold to rent in April 2005, selling my house for 3.5 times the purchase price in December 1992.

    Rather than deposit this gain in a savings account, I have invested it, initially in high-yielding 'value' shares (including Legal & General, Lloyds TSB, RBS and RSA).

    Last spring/summer (and well before the credit crunch slaughtered financial stocks), I ditched these holdings for cash, later investing the vast bulk of my housing pot in a FTSE 100-listed mining firm whose shares promptly almost doubled.

    At present, a chunk of my STR pot is invested in a micro-cap AIM firm which I expect to multi-bag in the next 12-18 months. In addition, some is invested in a Fool favourite, oil firm SOCO International.

    (Thus, I assume that I am the person to whom MonsterMixer is referring. Although I'm touched by your feigned concern for my family's well-being, MM, I'm perfectly happy with my decision to STR.

    Thanks to renting, we've lived in two lovely homes at a fraction of the cost it would require to buy them. Also, we made massive capital gains last year, thanks to you-know-who.)

    In the fullness of time, and as house prices continue to slide, I expect my decision to STR will be seen as a very wise one. In the meantime, I am socking away cash in preparation for buying my next home mortgage-free. :0)

    In summary, if you have a large income and lots of assets, then you can take on the risks involved in STRing. However, I would not recommend it for the typical man in the street.

    Cliff

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  • gob101
    Love rating 0
    gob101 said

    Not wishing to be smug,but,I will. I sold to rent about 2 months before N.R faultered,which was, I think the pin that burst the bubble in the UK.
    Renting is ok,but another commentor has high lighted a problem that will soon need addressing and that is Credit Checks....for Landlords. I had to pay to prove I was worthy, so should they.
    Landlords defaulting on their loans is one thing, but will the banks dare to pull them up on their margins as loan to value increases as property prices drop?

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  • akist
    Love rating 0
    akist said

    Remember the cash from the house sale on a 6%-7% deposit account is liable for up to 40% tax and it still needs to catch up with inflation which is rocketing at, my guess, 3-4 times the official government figures.

    After stamp duty, costs of moving, estate agent fees, inflation and tax, you'd need a dramatic drop in house prices in order to win.

    I am not saying it is not possible, especially if house prices drop by another 30% in the next year.

    Long term we all need well paying jobs to justify house price increases. No matter how we stabilise the banks and building societies, I have heard nothing on how the economy is going to grow. It is all about saving the banks at the moment, and miraculously we will all start receiving 20% pay rises anually after that. But how? Have we discovered new oil fieldds in the North Sea? Silver mines in Wales? How on earth is our economy going to grow since we do not really make anything to sell to anyone. Except the finance industry and celebrities.

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  • Malcolm Wheatley
    Love rating 3
    Malcolm Wheatley said

    That should be "find somewhere to live" not "find someone to live".

    MDW1954

    Report on 24 September 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • tux222
    Love rating 0
    tux222 said

    I thought about it, at what I thought was the top of the market (rightly, with hindsight). But I didn't.

    There were the large costs involved. There was the huge hassle factor. There was the possibility of being wrong. What swung it was the thought that I didn't buy a house as an investment, I bought one to live in, and since then it has gone from house to home. The only sensible reason to sell it is if I want to live somewhere else. And it's very likely that if the price of a house here is down 30%, the price of a house there will also be down 30%. Especially so while I have no idea where "there" might be.

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  • NpNp
    Love rating 0
    NpNp said

    I'm glad I STR. I think the price reductions will be frightening. Originally I was thinking of 30%, similar to the 90's, but you can row-in the credit crunch this time. I think now that 50% is realistic, and apparently some flats are already reduced by this amount. Deflation is a realistic possibility and that could reduce values even further. I don't wish to be the purveyor of gloom and doom, but I now think that unemployment will be huge and so will be repossessions. It's going to be a real buyers market in a couple of years.
    I don't understand why anyone in general is buying at present. Seems madness to me.
    One of the Cons was that prices could start to go up while renting. That is definitely not going to happen for many years to come. The economy is well b*gg*rer. I do not see another boom and bust in the usual 18 year time span. This credit crunch that has only just started to manifest itself will put an end to this, certainly during the memory of a generation. Prices will eventually get back to the hyperinflated values but only by increasing with inflation from the trough price, and the calculation shows that will take 20-25 years.

    Report on 24 September 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • peepobaby
    Love rating 49
    peepobaby said

    I did exactly this at the start of this year catching a still high London price. When I looked at it, I had spent ten years paying mortgage payments which came to £100k - yet was coming out with over £300k of equity. I'd earned more cash from the houses than I had from my jobs (after tax). Does that make sense? No. I am personally looking to rent for 3 years or so which will be enough time 1) for the financial crisis as it is called to have turned into a full blown asset devaluation, and 2)the most relevant point, the impact of UK/EU/US recession to have fully wound down. The only thing I worry about is my pension which is fairly exposed to global economic woes.

    Report on 25 September 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • brian5312
    Love rating 0
    brian5312 said

    First you have got to sell!It's a dead market where I am.Almost given up.Decided to buy a Narrow boat instead!No not to live but just to take my mind of the doom and gloom!

    Report on 25 September 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • bananamilkshake
    Love rating 0
    bananamilkshake said

    I have done this every time we sold a house to move which is 4 times so far.

    Not for financial reasons but for the sake of our sanity.

    Especially when moving from one area to another where we weren't familiar with the property market or even which areas were the places we wanted to live.

    It always made sense to us to rent temporarily while we got to know our new terrain and this strategy has saved us a lot of heartache and sometimes money a few times.

    Quite often as a newbie to an area - certain properties may appear very tempting only for them to turn out to be anything but, once experience kicks in.

    Bad neighbours, an area going 'downhill' other difficulties may not be apparant to out of towners - even if they visit at different times and try and do their homework. It is also far less easy for estate agents to pull the wool over your eyes if you have been living in their 'patch' for a while.

    One of the reasons that moving house is stressful is because of the knife edge timings that need to be perfectly co-ordinated when moving from one owned house to another. The mortgages have to dovetail, as do all the other people's arrangements in the 'chain'.

    This can largely be eliminated if you are moving from rented property - especially if you move into the new 'owned' home a few weeks or even a month before the rental period runs out. There is then a leisurely move across - which can be organised to suit you and with the minimum of stress.

    Not sure that hoping to rent long term in the UK is a great idea unless you can get a council rental - like most things it is great if you can manage it, but not something many tenants in the private sector can rely on.

    Moving abroad though is a different kettle of fish, as many EEC countries have a rental mentality with lots of protection for tenants, Germany and France being two cases in point.

    But personally, I would never move house just to try and make money. I have always moved for more (in my opinion) valid reasons and the financial situation has been a side effect - sometimes good sometimes bad. But it doesn't sting so much if there are other advantages when the finances don't gel to perfection.

    Report on 25 September 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • zeezze2say
    Love rating 0
    zeezze2say said

    the bubble was created by artificially low inflation. chineese goods are rearly very cheap. and cds the securitisation of gambleing. selling a bet as a security.now that it has been discoverd that it is not the cash has dissapeared .the shortage is now real money.the way out is to print more money. just like zimbabwe. where a loaf of bead is millions and millions of dollars.hopefully it will not get that far but interest rates will rise and inflation will destroy values of savings and pensions.we will have to invent our way out by real economic growth. that is using less to make more hopefully in a manner that does not cost the earth. good luck if you make loads in the artificial world please give to the real. sight savers is a great way to get real returns. by givng somebody their sight back the economic benefits are 1000s%

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  • SimonMTurner
    Love rating 0
    SimonMTurner said

    Did it take long to write this article? At least around here (East Sussex) the chances of being able to sell your home now are pretty remote (unless it's a special sort of property) and *asking prices* have already dropped at least 10%, and in some cases 20%.

    Report on 25 September 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Dhahran2001
    Love rating 0
    Dhahran2001 said

    I concur with all bananamilkshake's observations and advice, specifically that stress in the moving process is largely associated with co-ordinated timing down a chain.

    That said, it should always be better to play this game in a falling house-price market.

    Report on 25 September 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • pjpinto
    Love rating 0
    pjpinto said

    Property is for nesting not investing - unless your a millionaire or embarking upon the property landlord game - it's a zero sum game in the long run - sell now, rent now to buy later with just one property - what you save you give back. Not foolish.

    Report on 25 September 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • spahafadu
    Love rating 0
    spahafadu said

    Slight variation on the theme, not in negative equity yet (mortgage about 95% of supposed value at present) but sure its only a matter of time. Any merit in the suggestion that I just stop paying the mortgage and hand them the keys and then rent somewhere? Whats the pros and cons?

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  • ajfish
    Love rating 3
    ajfish said

    "dyfiman". Very interesting and well written. Nice one.
    spahafadu, stop paying the mortgage and hand back the keys? You are not serious? You need to stay put and ride it out. You can't just shun your responsibility just because you aren't making a paper profit. Outrageous!
    The property market is certainly on a big downer. I managed to secure planning permission for two detached houses on good sized plots which were part of the family home. Selfbuild plots used to command upto 50% of the final sell out value of the finished property. Now with falling property prices BUT rising raw material costs, I have decided to sit this one out for a couple of years, renewing the permission as and when required.

    AJ

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  • teaboy100
    Love rating 1
    teaboy100 said

    The property market is in this mess purely from all those 'sharp suits' who turned owning your own home into a mad chase for profit.
    For those few winners who think they have been so clever and made some money, I'm sure you are patting yourselves heartily on the back in self congratulation, but spare a thought for the many millions of honest hard working people who are in such financial pain because of your collective greed.
    Shame on you.

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  • mali7
    Love rating 0
    mali7 said

    If you can live with all the hassle of moving all the time, and happy to rent a place, well then sure you can gamble each time their is a boom and bust.
    Now its guranteed you wont be ablt to sell at top and buy at bottom each time or even ever. Also you can not gurantee the return you will get on the cash holding after your sale. Once you sell, say you sold in 2005, then house prices continued rising another 2years, now to be able profit from this then house prices have to come down more then that to take into account rental cost in between etc.
    Currently our home, is not an investment, its our place to live in, and its kept to how we want our home to be. LTV is less then 50% and each months mortgage payment, is around 50% interest and 50% repayment. I can see within next 10yr hopefully to be mortgage free, which is my aim! Hence cant see how selling and renteing then buying can be helpful?
    Anyway I do have two other properties on letting, and cant see why to sell them as well. First one I have let since last 3 years, with no void periods, mortgage reducing every month, LTV less then 75%, and still make profit from the rent after paying a repayment mortgage. Second one just bought in July08, why? Got it 25% below mrkt value, ie around 2002 price for the area, due to a desperate seller. Although just spent 5% of mrkt value to mordernise. Now in September let out just as the paint was finishing. Rental covers a repayment mortgage & insurance costs & gives me a monthly profit. What more can you ask for? With a timescale of 10years, hopefully it will have probably half the mortgage left and double in value.
    At current market its very few bargain hunters buying so the selling now would mean a lot less money. Why sell for less, if you can easily cover your mortgage?

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  • Almidge
    Love rating 0
    Almidge said

    Some twenty-odd years ago I had negative equity and mortgage rates were unbelievable. A sudden change in my life needed a sudden change in location. I simply walked into the building society and told them I no loger needed my house. They took the keys informing me it would be treated as "Voluntary Reposession" - No Penalty. It did not affect my credit rating as I was not even in arrears and I had had no problem getting a mortgage later on. Once you are in Neg Equ you have little other option. Good luck Spahafadu

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  • spahafadu
    Love rating 0
    spahafadu said

    Yes not in arrears here, don't really use the house much (spend most of my time at my partner's place) and shelling out the best part of a grand a month while it continues to devalue seems such a waste. What happens when you hand the keys over? What if the BS then sold the house at a price much lower than the outstanding mortgage? Would I be chased for the difference? Sorry, many questions from an ignorant struggling to make ends meet.

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  • mali7
    Love rating 0
    mali7 said

    Those in negative equity, I would say during the boom time, sensible buying was out of the window as well as was sensible lending by lenders.

    First a lot of buyers, just to be able to buy a house kept offering 5-10% above asking price, without doing the value maths. Secondly the banks were happy with any valuation you told them, and they were happy to lend anyone. Didnt check their income properly. And even those with no deposit was offered mortgages, ie 100% LTV and even 125% LTV, which is just crazy.

    Sensible lending should ensure someone can afford it and also that they have a min 10% deposit, ie first time buyers. For investors I would suggest higher depsoti requirement.

    Also at current time, I can only see those with big cash deposit saving those in desparate to sell situation or the banks who have to sell a repossed property. A lot of people have also been desparate to sell due to banks who have now tighten their lending criteria. Hence many stuck on SVR rate after initial promotions. I agree it is not fair on people in this situation!

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  • buckers100
    Love rating 0
    buckers100 said

    Well sorry everyone especially the smug ones - I have tried to buy a house during a rising market and found it very difficult - any decent houses are snapped up at a premium. Suitable rental property I have seen has been dire, and having a landlord peering into your circumstances is objectionable. The amount I am paying on a fat mrtgage is half what I would be paying in rent. Now looking at how most riches are produced by property - returns on the stock market are lousy since 2000 - and I don't see any rush from people that I regard as successful to sell. Basically property is the only sensible way to go.

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  • prodigy9
    Love rating 0
    prodigy9 said

    "I simply walked into the building society and told them I no loger needed my house. They took the keys informing me it would be treated as "Voluntary Reposession" -"

    I wonder if they would be so keen to do this now. With prices falling and little prospect of off-loading these properties easily whilst making a profit I'd be surprised. I'm sure they'd find a way to penalise you heavily if you tried this.

    Seems to me the problem is we talk about "property" and not "home", and look at it as an investment opportunity. Surely the first priority is for somewhere to live, ideally without losing or wasting money, therefore buying (if possible) not renting. If you are in your home for a decent amount of time then all things being equal the next time you come to move you can take the next step up the ladder.

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  • reason8
    Love rating 0
    reason8 said

    The question begs the question - how do you measure disaster?

    This article seems to suggest that the measure is purely financial, although a number of respondents have referred quite rightly to lifstyle issues.

    To my mind where you live, for how long and with what degree of security and freedom is everything to do with lifestyle. How it is financed ie by mortgage, rent, gift or work related is a choice and will inevitably be limited by your financial circumstances.

    Property as an investment should not be confused with property for you to live in. Yes buying to live in can be profitable but that should not be the guiding factor. If it is your guiding factor perhaps you should revisit your priorities in life.

    Property suitable for you to invest in to meet your investment criteria will need to be cash flow positive and have the prospect but not the overiding necessity for capital growth.

    Investing for capital growth is a gamble, investing in a cash flow positive way is a lot safer. Better still if you can buy at a discount to the historical trend line for the spcific property and location, that way you start with either a profit or at least a cushion for short term continued falls in value.

    Only invest in property if you understand it and believe in it.

    Report on 25 September 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • SteveGrr
    Love rating 0
    SteveGrr said

    Referring back to the original article; the "two lots of costs" argument isn't really a con because those costs would be incurred regardless of whether you sold and bought, or sold then rented before buying.

    The hassle factor is also likely to be considerably less - having no upper chain on the sale and no lower chain on the purchase. It becomes feasible in a falling or stagnant market but a luxury no-one could afford in a rising market. I can't see it is a risk - but only if you are thinking of moving anyway.

    If you were moving anyway, you have already committed to the costs and a period of renting may allow prices to fall further and will reduce the stress and increase your flexibility. If you are STR just to make a financial gain then you have to cover your costs before you see any profit. That seems more risky to me.

    One caveat people haven't mentioned is children and schools. If you move to a new area and rent, then buy somewhere else your kids may end up going to one school in the rented area and another in the area where you purchase.

    Our plan is to sell and rent where we are, which means the kids continue in their existing school. Then move to our new area in the summer holidays. Maybe we will end up paying rent and mortgage for a couple of months, if we find a house in the spring, but that is not a big issue and will let us move at leisure rather than when a chain dictates.

    Of course, we may not find a buyer at an acceptable price, but in that case we can stay put. We are under no obligation to sell or to move.

    Report on 25 September 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Eboli
    Love rating 0
    Eboli said

    I found the majority of these post terribly depressing. My house (which I nearly own bar a £3K mortgage) is my home and I have never regarded it as anything other than my home. There is something (Im was going to say 'wrong' but let me be more charitable) questionable in the mindset when you start placing your home on your personal balance sheet. Some things in life come with a price tag but should not be kept with one.

    Report on 25 September 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Harttss3
    Love rating 0
    Harttss3 said

    I recently advised my mother to sell up and rent. She was looking at a future of equity tied into her home and little income, making her potential prey to those equity release sharks. she now has a very comfortable rented house which perfectly suits her needs, a landlord to do all the jobs she worried about and a load of cash earning high interest in the bank. She can do what she likes, not have to worry about cost and interest earned will pay most of her monthly rent for many, many years to come.

    Report on 25 September 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • BarneyMcGrew
    Love rating 0
    BarneyMcGrew said

    The previous property price run up to this one was in the 1980's and the bubble was pricked by the abolition of double M.I.R.A.S. relief at the end of August 1988.

    I sold my flat in August 1990, a little late and property prices were already falling. I had to reduce my selling price by about 3% at the last moment to get the sale done but still came out with a nice lump sum as property prices had more than doubled since 1984 when I bought the property. I then rented properties and did not buy in the UK again until 1997. The trough in prices was around 1994/5 (6-7 years after the event that started it) so again, I was a little late in getting back in but was able to negotiate on the purchase price because even then, it was still more a buyer's than seller's market.

    Now, I should say here that none of this happened because I was trying to be clever. The 1990 move was for work and then other life events took over.

    Personally, I would say you need a fair amount of luck if you are deliberately taking yourself out of property ownership with the primary idea of timing a re-entry for financial gain. There is no doubt a once in a generation opportunity has presented itself again and that some people will ultimately do well from it. Just make sure that you "do the math" as our American cousins would say.

    Ofcourse, the circumstances of this property price downturn are not the same as the last time and there are many other considerations to weigh, not least of which is the systemic risk to our (the West's) financial systems and whether or not you can find a buyer who can get finance. That said, capital, once released from property, has to be put somewhere and under the mattress isn't really an option.

    This is early days. My experience leads me to believe that the price trough for this downturn may not happen until 2013/14 and it could be 2018-20 before prices are back to where they were about a year ago. As to the depth of the correction in percentage terms, who knows? Not me. However, I do think that if your MAIN aim was to make serious money from this downturn, you're probably already too late. On the flip side, gains in the broader (than just money) sense are still possible and now there's no great rush.

    So, what do you do with you stash of cash? It MUST be preserved over the entire period that you're out of property (no dipping in for little luxuries) and it needs to gain at a rate that at least beats inflation (whatever rate that is - who do you believe?) yet it has to be available to you at short notice to "strike while the iron's hot" when you perceive that it is once again the right time to buy.

    Spotting market turns is notoriously difficult and most people end up being late into the upturn because they quite naturally wait for confirmation. This is especially true after longer downturns and significantly affects any gain you might calculate that you could make.

    So, what to do? As ever, "you pays your money and you takes your choice". Personally, my plans involve moving house sometime in the next 3 years to another part of the UK. I will be selling and buying a property and so expect to benefit from being able to upgrade to a better property then than I could achieve right now as the price differentials will probably have decreased. But who knows?

    In the meantime, we all need somewhere to live and only time will tell if a plan will work out for you. This could indeed be a one off chance to improve your lot but before you jump, make sure there's somewhere to land.

    Hindsight is a wonderful thing ..............

    Report on 25 September 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Almidge
    Love rating 0
    Almidge said

    I see your point Prodigy9 but if a building society were to repossess due to a default you would not be liable for their loss when they sold, so how can it be different if the repo is vountary?
    It had been my home, not an investment, and it hurt a lot to see it go, but at the time I had no option but to move and could not afford to sell it!

    Report on 25 September 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • prodigy9
    Love rating 0
    prodigy9 said

    Hey Almidge.

    Not sure but I seem to remember that in the last price crash when people handed back the keys, mortgage lenders waited for up to 12 years(which I think was the legal limit) before pursuing those defaulters for any shortfall, plus interest.

    I'm sure a better fool than I will correct me.

    Report on 25 September 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • ggpessimist
    Love rating 0
    ggpessimist said

    too late

    Report on 25 September 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Enzyme76
    Love rating 0
    Enzyme76 said

    Eboli, you are spot on.

    We bought 3 years ago, but what we bought was our home not an investment.

    We could never have or do what we have now in rented.

    Report on 25 September 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • billyboy121
    Love rating 18
    billyboy121 said

    spahafadu / Almidge - when you borrow money from a lender, you enter into an agreement to repay it. As part of that agreement, you give security on that loan in the form of your house. So far so good. If you default, then the bank can take your house for payment of the outstanding loan. The bank has a duty to mitigate its losses by selling the property. If the property is not sufficient to pay off the loan and expenses incurred, you are legally liable for the remainder. The bank/bs may decide to pursue you then, or may decide to pursue you later (subject to an overall time limit under Limitations Act) or not at all but the position remains that you'll be legally liable for that debt (unless discharged by way of bankruptcy).

    Report on 25 September 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • AllyJH
    Love rating 0
    AllyJH said

    It's just greed. They may feel smug as they trouser their fast bucks, but if everyone does it there won't be a blip in the housing market, there'll be a total collapse. Some years ago my neighbours tried to get me to join a pyramid scam; I refused because I knew that when someone is making a fast buck, someone else is always losing out. They made a mint, but at least I can live with myself. And the people who lose out in this case are those who really need to move, or are in negative equity and need to remortgage. The decent thing to do, if you don't need to move and can afford your mortgage payments, is stay put.

    Report on 26 September 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • McLeodC
    Love rating 13
    McLeodC said

    Remember, if you're renting, your rent is only fixed for the term of your tenancy agreement - usually six months. At the end of that period, your landlord can ask you to leave, or increase the rent by 10%, 100% or whatever he chooses. Tenants can appeal if they think their rent is unfair, but there's no guarantee of success - often they either have to pay what's asked or look for somewhere cheaper.
    At least with mortgage payments you know that your regular outlays will change broadly in line with interest rates. But rent is subject to the whims of your landlord; rents tend to go up with rising interest rates (since most landlords have to pay mortgages too), but unlike mortgages I've never heard of rents coming down when interest rates fall!

    Report on 26 September 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • petethepainter
    Love rating 0
    petethepainter said

    My God this is all so depressing.
    My flat in Hatfield is mortgaged to £114000 with Prefered Mortgages on an interest only basis.
    My repayments are £837 per month with another £50 per month going on to pay back 2 months areas. In April i came to the end of a 2 year fixed rate and of course couldnt get a remortgage from anyone.
    I earn £1200 per month plus another £400 from another part time job so i am working 10 hrs a day 6 days per week and the debt letters have swamped me, i get at least 6 per week and have had to look at other ways to keep the reposesion at bay. So now i have rented my bedroom to my nephew at £300 per month and am looking to rent out the small study room at £200 per month. So i am left living in a small sitting room and feeling like a tenent in my own home.
    Is it realy worth it i ask my self as i could rent a very nice garden flat in my area for £680 per month....but i cant sell my flat .This time last year it was valued at £145000 now im told its worth £125000. So do i hang on or should i sell and get rid of the mortgage alltogether and move into a room or studio. My health has deteriated and i have now got to the stage where i dont answer the door unless i know who it is and jst shred all my mail....Great life for a 48 year old man.

    Report on 26 September 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • ExDirector505
    Love rating 0
    ExDirector505 said

    Some of the people above are either leading a charmed life or are making it all up to make themselves sound clever! If it's the former - remember the old adage - pride comes before a fall. If it's the latter, dream on!

    Without doubt, the financial landscape looks as bad now as it did in 1930. The only difference is we dont have Winston Churchill putting us on the Gold Standard. Although governments and chancellors have got wise to economic reality in the last eighty years, it's going to take some very cool heads and nerves of steel to avoid economic disaster on the scale seen last in 1930-33 in the UK.

    Without a doubt, as is often the case, the preparations for war helped return the country to economic health. Maybe that will happen this time (God help us!) Meanwhile, house prices in most of the UK fell throughout most of the 1930s. This may have been partly due to a massive house-building plan which helped get men back to work but depressed house prices for certain. That wont happen this time as the NIMBYs wont allow it nor will the planning officers.

    The lack of credit facilities and inter-bank lending looks set to produce a mortgage famine which will last for years freezing the first-time buyer out. Without them of course, there is no market as chains collapse.

    What will happen eventually is anyone's guess but it wont come quickly and meanwhile there will be mayhem. In such a scenario it is usually best to do nothing and certainly not in a hurry. Better the devil you know!

    Report on 26 September 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • benjiwilma
    Love rating 0
    benjiwilma said

    Is it a good time to buy know, daughter has money and we would help out for investment for her and her two brothers, unsure about the market and what to do, anyone with any thoughts would be welcomed advice

    Report on 26 September 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • urgetosplurge
    Love rating 0
    urgetosplurge said

    benjiwilma - I would advise you and your daughter *not* to buy property now and to put the money into a high-interest savings account.

    If she's desperate to buy, then she should consider buying property at auction. However, you will need to keep a cool head and not get carried away by paying too much for a house, in case it's worth less in 2, 4, 6 years time than it is now.

    Report on 27 September 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • deeplyblue
    Love rating 0
    deeplyblue said

    We decided to put our house on the market a year ago, largely because, for health reasons, we needed to leave that house. It took six months to sell the house (one purchase fell through) and I thought that we had missed the best time to sell. However, we didn't have to take very much of hit on the selling price in the end.

    We did not, originally, intend to rent. Only a failed purchase and an inability to find somewhere else we really liked landed us in a rental property.

    Now I'm glad we're here. We are still looking for "the right house", and are now hoping that our cash-buyer status will put us in a good negotiating position - when we find it.

    We also moved from a large Victorian house to a smaller modern one, and the experience has been educational. We will, I think, make a better decision about what to buy then we would have done before.

    We are, of course, hoping that the landlord won't need to sell the house from under us. If we can stay here, then we shall, until either the market starts to pick up or we find a house we want.

    The double move into and out of rented what not what we wanted, but it looks as though it may turn out to be a sensible move, both financially and practically.

    Report on 27 September 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • readingbob
    Love rating 0
    readingbob said

    I agree with urgetosplurge - now's not a good time to buy property. Looks like prices will drop down further for the next two years...

    Report on 28 September 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • steveandlaina
    Love rating 0
    steveandlaina said

    Don't thnk there is ever a bad time to buy property IF you are buying it for the long term and need a roof over your head.....expect my x-partners house is worth a hell of a lot more than it might have been valued in the early 90's(four times?).
    Have been trawling over the government stats and the next lot in Nov and Feb will be interesting......think it all depends what basis any percentage drop "facts" are based on, and what type of property or area they are based on.

    Report on 05 October 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves

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