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Banks give up defending penalty bank charges

Published 6 July 2009 in Get the best deal

Banks are giving up defending penalty charges in order to focus on a much more serious issue that could double the payments to claimants.

As you are probably aware, the Office of Fair Trading is taking the banks to court to establish whether it's allowed to use its powers to put an end to penalty charges.

I wrote two years ago that this could quite easily be dragged out for a total of five years. (Read What's happening with bank charges?) At present, the case has been elevated to the House of Lords. It's taken two years to get to this - the third stage. As I outlined in a more recent article, a result for the consumer could still be dragged out for a further five stages. (Read Bank charges victory still years away.)

Banks admit charges are unfair

It's in the banks' interests to mount a defence as long as possible, even if they think they'll eventually lose. Over time, the amount of money that the banks will hold onto increases, as does the possibility of swerving an unfavourable judgment.

Whilst it's still in the banks' interest to mount a defence, it seems that it may now be a token one. According to the Consumer Action Group (CAG), which offers consumers free help on recovering excessive bank charges, one of the banks' own QCs agreed that bank charges are unfair and very excessive, when speaking with the five Law Lords sitting on this case. This is the biggest admission yet from the banks. The CAG believes the banks aren't fighting so hard anymore, because they know they can't win.

It may simply be that the banks' QC knew he couldn't win that particular argument. I think he may fight a lot harder on the point he followed with: that although the charges are unfair, they are still not subject to the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations (UTCCRs). That is the piece of law that most claimants have been using to fight the charges. If he is right, which none of us believe he is for a second, then claimants would need to find another legal argument.

Claim back to 1995, not just 2001

Two more points came up in my discussion with the CAG. The group believes that we can claim right back to the beginning of 1995, not just back to 2001, as many of us think. Normally you can claim back six years under what's called the 'Statute of Limitations'. The Financial Services Authority told the banks in 2007 that, whilst this case is ongoing, it shouldn't use the passing time as an excuse not to pay claims.

Many have taken this to mean that the period of time from which you can claim should be locked in from 2007, meaning you can claim from 2001. (However, if the banks will respect the FSA's orders and whether the order will work in practice is an entirely different matter.)

Yet CAG argues that we can claim back further in to the past, because the law can be more flexible if you couldn't have been aware sooner that you had a legitimate claim. The UTCCRs were introduced in 1999 but were retrospective, meaning that claims could be made back to the beginning of 1995. Hence, this is the date CAG says claimants should claim from.

The legal opinion I obtained separately on this back in 2006 was contrary to CAG's, but this shouldn't stop you from claiming all the way back to 1995 anyway. It won't hinder the rest of your case to do so, and you can simply leave it to the best judgement of the court.

Repayments from banks could double - or quadruple

The next point is more convincing, and it's the one that would be filling the banks with fear - if they didn't think they'd just get bailed out by the taxpayer again and find another way to make massive profits.

Returning to the House of Lords trial, CAG believes not just that the banks have given up on their defence of unfair charges, but also that they are looking to limit the damage. This seems entirely plausible. The banks' QC made plain his concerns about the cost of restitution, probably in the hope that the Lords' final judgment is worded to prevent it. 'Restitution' may seem like a harmless word, but in legal terms it's extraordinary.

What it means is that you would not only get your charges back, but you'd also be paid any profits that were made on those charges. The bank will have taken the charges and lent them to other people or, indeed, back to the claimants themselves, and therefore made more money.

Here's an example. Let's say that you were charged £100 in the middle of 2001. The bank would be forced to reveal any profits it made on this. By lending it to other people and otherwise re-investing it, they might have made, say, 10% net per year. Compounded since 2001, that'd mean the banks need to repay a total of £214 per £100 taken in charges that year, more than doubling the payout.

Taken with the possibility of claims back to 1995 instead of 2001, this means the total cost to banks could be around four times higher than previously thought. By my estimates that's about £80bn. Not all of that will be paid out in practice, but even a few billion is important to banks at the moment - never mind us borrowers!

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Comments

Jaybooze said

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The majority of my bank charges occurred in the early part of 2003.

Can I still claim for these or has the time expired,I am not quite sure from the details in the article.Jerry

Ellis1370 said

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We have an overdraft facility and in May the bank added charges of £150 to our account for renewing this.  A couple of weeks later, we inadvertantly went over the overdraft by about £25 thus incurring a charge of £30.  If the bank hadn't added those charges for renewing in the first place, we would not have gone over the overdraft and had the extra charge. It seems to me that the bank wins all the time.  Would I be able to claim these charges back.

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Hi Jerry

I apologise for not making it clearer. I have to work within a word limit and did the best I could, but perhaps should have ditched another paragraph in order to explain this part better.

If your claim is for the early part of 2003 or earlier, the courts won't accept your claim unless:

1. you have already filed your claim (and it's on hold) or:

2. The CAG is correct that you can claim back to 1995.

However, when this is all over, if you claim through the Financial Ombudsman Service instead of through the court, you should get most of your penalty-charge money back from the middle of 2001 at the very least. No guarantees, but that's more likely than not, I should think.

I'd also like to thank Marc Gander of the Consumer Action Group for our intermittent email dialogue over the past two years, and for his call two weeks ago.

Neil (the author)

jaymie said

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This annoys me.  Whenever you take out a credit card, loan or overdraft facility, the terms are clearly laid out to you.  The charges are too.  If you don't want to pay the charges, you don't exceed your credit limit or miss a payment.  If you do, you pay them and accept responsibility.

I don't think having to pay £30 for parking fines is fair, but rather than park on double yellow lines, I always make sure I park legally - or if I don't, I suffer the consequences and pay up.

How is this different?

chs66 said

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I was overdrawn by 12pence and got charged £38 pounds and made me further in the red

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I'm sorry but I don't go all the way with the 'bash the big bad banks' brigade. For a start I'll declare an interest. I am a shareholder of the major British banks and obviously something which damages their profits doesn't get my vote particularly as I haven't paid that many penalty charges. Those that I did pay, I moaned about, but I always accepted that the charges were levied because I failed to pay an instalment on time-I broke my contract with the bank. As to the argument about whether the charges reflected the underlying costs of the banks, do they have to? Ever heard of exemplary charges? To encourage the late payer? So far as the judiciary is concerned the banks may as well give up now. When it comes to the'little man' versus the big institution the little man is always going to win irrespective of the arguments involved.

MAGGIE321 said

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My son is waiting for the court ruling before putting in any claims, is this correct, or should he have 'got the ball rolling' so to speak, by now ? He must have paid many hundreds in bank charges over the years.

idge said

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Two things:

1. I agree with Jaymie. If people don't want to incur the charges, don't fall foul of the terms & conditions. SIMPLE!  My wife came home the other day with a parking fine - "But I was only 5 minutes late!" she complained "£30 for 5 minutes!".  Don't be late. Or don't park there.  Accept responsibility!

2. I rely on banks making their profits from the above sort of people - that way they don't make their profits from me (they don't charge for a current ccount for eg), and I make my profits from them. 

I'm all for bank charges.

RedJohn said

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Jaymie, it's different because -

1.  The local authority is allowed to penalise you for an offence in order to deter you from doing it.  This is because it is (considered to be) in the public interest to restrict certain activities - those double yellow lines are (usually) there for a reason.  A private company is not allowed to penalise you, only to recover their reasonably-foreseeable-in-advance costs.

2.  You have a choice where you park.  Some parking places are free, some parking places you have to pay for.  A double yellow line as a parking place could be very expensive and inconvenient.  You make the choice where to park and what to pay depending on the cost and inconvenience balance that suits you.  If you get a penalty from the council that you think is wrong you have the option not to pay it and you can appeal before having to pay. 

However, with banks you don't have a comparable choice as they all make similar levels of penalty charges, and because they have your money anyway they simply deduct it leaving you to complain and try to get it back if you can.  What's more, as in some of the examples quoted, the "offence" is often caused by the banks making earlier excessive penalty charges.  And the key word is "penalty", see point 1. above.

John.

idge said

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Redjohn - Although technically I could argue that one doesn't need to use a bank, I won't, but one certainly has the choice of going overdrawn, etc  and one also has the choice of using accounts where you can't go overdrawn, etc.  

Banks provide a damned good service not only for free, but paying us at the same time.  Secure place to store our cash, automatic payment of bills, etc, transfer cash around for free, online services, etc etc etc. Then when we have to pay for something that we don't even have to, we whinge!  Ridiculous.  You know the rules - stop trying to get something for nothing. If you feel you can get a better rate of interest with the same security elsewhere - take your money there. Start your own bank, and see how long you last with that mentality.

jaymie said

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To my mind, this smacks of people who are happy enough to have the credit (perhaps without paying full attention to the terms and conditions), but then whinge about it when they fall foul of those same terms and conditions.

I appreciate Redjohn's clarification of the terms involved, but I fail to see how it's anything other than sour grapes.  Respect your account and you won't pay.

McLeodC said

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Does anyone know if executors/beneficiaries of estates will be able to recover unfair bank charges incurred by someone who has since died?

My father died earlier this year, a few months after moving into in a care home. He had sufficient funds for his care home fees in a savings account, but the direct debits for the fees and other outlays were from his current account, which quickly went into the red. When we realised there was a problem, it proved impossible for him to transfer funds by telephone, and there was a short delay before he was well enough to go to a branch in person. The bank charges and interest totalled many hundreds of pounds, but before he died my father became too ill to pursue a claim against the bank.

As he had still been reasonably compos mentis, just too frail physically to manage, there was no Power of Attorney in force, so I was not able to make a claim on his behalf.  

RedJohn said

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Idge - One doesn't, unfortunately, always have a choice about going overdrawn.

Scenario:

A utility company taking a regular monthly direct debit for your service decides to increase it by £20 a month based on an estimated reading.  They write to you to say so but you are on holiday at the time.  By the time you come back, the d/d has been taken leaving you £10 overdrawn, and a further regular d/d has been taken for £5.  Without the change you have been in credit by £5, instead you end up £15 overdrawn.  You are paid the next day so you are overdrawn by £5 for one day. 

Your bank tells you that you will be charged £20 for going overdrawn, and a further £20 for processing a payment that makes you overdrawn, and another £20 for processing a payment while you are overdrawn.  Oh and overdraft interest on the overdrawn balance, the only vaguely realistic foreseeable cost to them of the unauthorised overdraft, which is 7p.  These charges will be deducted at the end of the next month.

Your finances are in a fine balance anyway, but by theend of the next month you have given the utility company the correct meter reading which means your d/d goes back to where it should have been.  You somehow manage to scrape together / not spend an extra £60.00 that month as you know the charges are coming.  Result, just before payday you go overdrawn again for one day, by 7p.

Your bank tells you that you will be charged £20 for going overdrawn, and a further £20 for processing a payment that makes you overdrawn ...

This is an entirely likely scenario, lots of people will relate similar experiences.

And the key point is not that it's your fault for not keeping adequate track of your finances, it's not that it was in your contract so you should have known. 

The point is, it's illegal.  It's the banks parking on the double yellow lines for 5 minutes - they're just not allowed to do it.

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 McLeodC,

With regards to your late father's account I would contact the banking ombudsman service to see if you have a claim as this is clearly not right.

idge,

"Banks provide a damned good service not only for free"

Except that it isn't. They make money on the cash held with them.

"but paying us at the same time."

You mean the 0.1% (if you're lucky)?

"Secure place to store our cash"

Which you pay for (see above). And in any case, if your bank goes bust then you end up as a creditor and if you happened to have more then £50k in the bank then you're well screwed.

oncebitten102,

"but I always accepted that the charges were levied because I failed to pay an instalment on time-I broke my contract with the bank."

But they broke their contract with you! The law regarding unfair contracts says that the unfair parts cannot be enforced and so it's as if they were never there in the first place.

 

[Side note to the ED: I'm going to stop posting comments now except to BTL and inflation related stories, which I regard as just too important. The reason I'm doing this is because Lovemoney/TMF's 'new' comments section continually rejects comment posts from non-Internet Explorer based web browsers. I've raised many bug reports and have done so since the new site went live but your 'technical' department ether doesn't care or more likely doesn't have the necessary skills the fix the problem. Perhaps you should employ someone who knows a real website scripting language like PHP as opposed to ASP/ASPX?]

OliveB said

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My partner had submitted a claim just before the freeze went on. But he died back in March. What I want to know, is the claim still live and anything the executor can do to speed things up?

nosbort said

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RedJohn,

"And the key point is not that it's your fault for not keeping

adequate track of your finances, it's not that it was in your contract

so you should have known. "

This is rubbish, of course it is your fault that  you don't know how much money you have available, if you don't want to pay the charges don't spend someone else's money, the logical result of this compensation culture is that the banks will stop charging people who steal from them (after all that IS what you are doing) and just hand over the paperwork to the courts, as they do in the USA where it is an offence which is regularly prosecuted to write bad cheques etc.

"The point is, it's illegal.  It's the banks parking on the

double yellow lines for 5 minutes - they're just not allowed to do it."

Hold your horses, this is what is currently being decided by the courts, it ain't illegal until a court decides that it is.

All in all I think it is about time that people who want to spend more than they have stopped expecting me to bail them out.

Linz4291 said

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I agree with you jaymie that if you overspend then bank charges are fair enough. However in my own experience banks can be pretty creative in screwing you over.

When i switched to Alliance & Leicester back in 2004 i used their direct debit switching service - 'just sit back and let us take care of it all', they said. They managed to get all my outgoing DDs in place on time, but not my salary payment. This meant that my loan repayment was refused and, although A&L didn't charge me because I had a free overdraft in place, Northern Rock charged me £30. When I complained to A&L, they blamed my employer for not sorting out the switch in time. Lovely.

That one I guess was unfortunate, and who knows? Maybe it was my employer's fault for being slow to change my bank details. The one that has really annoyed me happened a couple of years ago. My partner and I transfer a chunk of our salaries to a 'bills account' every month. This account is also with A&L and doesn't have an overdraft facility. It's always been in credit and I've never had a problem with it, until one day my payment date fell on a bank holiday. This meant that on the Tuesday, a credit of over £1000 was waiting to be credited (and had been due to go in on the Monday) and my rent payment plus another DD were due to go out on the Tuesday. Instead of applying them in the order they were due - which would have left me £300 in credit - A&L for some inexplicable reason applied the debits first and then the credits. This meant I was overdrawn by about £100 for several minutes, for which they charged me £25! How on earth is that fair?!   

Honky81 said

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Am I the only one thinking that:

1. Charges are too high for certain offenders but ok for others?

2. It's the accumulation that really gets people into trouble?

Maybe a system where the banks are allowed to charge the maximum of the offending sum as their charges (up to a fair amount, say £10), and then just £1 for every day on top of that? That way instead of accumulating £££ in fees over just a few days, the offender gets punished but not pushed into hardship, and it's also fair if you only go over your amount by a few penses.

Maybe banks should give me a nice job working this out for them, with a nice big bonus every year (no matter how much money they make)!!! haha

email me for my CV!! lol

idge said

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Land of Confusion - I feel you are in fact confused.  I am well aware of the fact that banks make money from our money - that's called being a business. However, the fact remains that (in the vast majority of cases) banking is FREE. It doesn't cost me anything to store my money with them securely (yes up to 50k with one institution, then put your next 50k with another one, and so on!!). Not only is it free, but they pay ME every month to bank with them.   0.1%!!!!  You must be one of those that incurs bank charges.  I am getting £5 per month with halifax reward for a current a/c (which is about 6% pa on £2500 pm in the account.........but of course, I take the £5 and the day after move all the money out into a saver paying 3%).

If the courts side with 'the little man' (the wrong little man in my opinion), then all the efficient (not wealthy!), 'correct' people will have to suffer through fees for banking and reduced interest rates.  

Redjohn - I understand your utility DD example, and appreciate the situation, however, if it is likely that you will not have enough in your current account to cover such circumstances (or that you dont have an overdraft arranged to cover such circumstances of going overdrawn) then you shouldn't agree to have a contract with a utility company paying by direct debit - you should make payents by cheque/transfer/credit card (not the most efficient, I know, but it will beat paying bank charges).  I pay by direct debit, have an overdraft of 500 arranged on my current account in case I go overdrawn through such circumstances, but I have never haad to use it - but it's there just in case.  (And no, I don't have hundreds of pounds hanging around in current accounts - this too is inefficient, but it's my risk if I wish to move the money out to seek higher interest rates - and if i go overdrawn, I will accept responsibility for it).

Mister W said

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Let's stop pretending the banks will be hurt by any ruling against them.  The people who will be hurt will be people like me, a customer who manages his finances and keeps his account in the black.  I predict the end of free banking if the banks lose and I'll end up out of pocket.

  

A big thank you from me to everyone who has been supporting this action!!!

HomerJay said

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Interesting to see people using the parking fine analogy.  But a lot of people have missed the point that it's not about getting rid of bank charges but having fair bank charges.  People also forget that it's easy when you have a good income but people on the lowest incomes, who will tend to have the poorest financial skills will be more likely to incur charges. idge talks about the interest on £2500, well imagine what it's like for people for whom £2500 is equal to 3 months pay (gross).

Would those who are shareholders in banks (I'm one!), be happy to keep high bank charges but then have their banks pay proportionally excessive penalties when they make mistakes.  I help people out who have financial problems and here's a question for you.  How can a bank give someone a late payment charge when their bill  (to the bank) is paid by direct debit?

iamhe said

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It isn't simply a question of 'Terms and Conditions'.  If the terms are unlawful, then they become irrelevant, and the obligation to adhere to them is nullified.

The law is the law, and Section 2083 of the The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 makes this ABUNDANTLY clear.

So, it costs a bank 30 quid a time EVERY time a customer goes over the agreed overdraft limit?  How so?  Do the banks personally hand-deliver every letter by helicopter in gilded envelopes?

The banks have no argument, and can't/won't explain how these charges are calculated, because they know they're in the wrong.

If the banks had not tried to stiff the customer and do their jobs properly in the first place, then they wouldn't be in the situation they're in now.  I have no sympathy whatsoever for them and find it highly amusing (not to mention ironic) that THEY are quick enough to go cap in hand when it suits them.

As for shareholders, well, if it was a horse-race bet that didn't go your way, nobody would say a word, so why go moaning about your loss now?  Win some, lose some - that's the name of game.  Unfortunately for you, you lost some - now go and invest in a more honest industry where you won't soak up public money or run the risk of getting your fingers burnt.

Banks and shareholders losses?  Sad - but too bad.

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Hi everyone

For all of you interested in the debate about whether reclaiming charges is right, why not read my article on that?

http://www.fool.co.uk/expert/neil-faulkner/blog/196/is-it-right-to-reclaim-bank-charges.aspx

Hi LandOfConfusion

I saw your note about technical problems. I'll try to throw my weight (such as it is) behind resolving them.

Neil (the author)

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...And I agree with you, LandOfConfusion, about considering seriously the possible inflation problems.

Neil

charlie said

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Hi LandOfConfusion, sorry to hear you have been having problems with the article comment feature, no complaints have thus far been forwarded to me.  I'm going to drop you a line on your registered email address in order to try and resolve them.

-Charlie

madfraggle said

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One tactic the banks have used I thought was particularly low was this: I used CAG's excellent site and advice to secure a refund of charges for my partner of nearly £1000. When they agreed to pay it (got in just before the OFT messed it all up...) they did so only on the proviso that we both signed a piece of paper agreeing to pay their existing charges if incurred.

So basically whilst admitting (by paying our claim) that they had broken the law charging my wife these charges, they wanted us both to agree to pay them in the future.!!!!

As we still wanted to have a bank account we signed - especially as my legal understanding suggests that if they lose their case it doesn't matter what we have agreed to, the charges are unlawful and dont apply.

Incidentally my wife (who has a low income and is dyslexic) has been charged about five times since for small amounts overdrawn (less than £10) because of simple errors usually made by companies running DD's, which are NEVER in my experience instantly refunded even when an error has quite clearly been made. The fastest we have yet managed still took three days to credit our money back - I am tempted to charge the bank £35 plus £20 for writing to them in these circumstances!

RedJohn said

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I suggest you change your bank madfraggle, your current one is now out to get you.

And / or set up a small buffer overdraft facility, £100 should cost you next to nothing, to cushion you against small unexpected events.

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This must rank as one of the worst and most inaccurate articles on the Test Case ever.

Quite why the journalist chose CAG to source his 'information'from is anyones guess as no CAG representitive was present at the hearing. NF may as well have have been debriefed by my cat.

1) There is no ''statute of limitations'', but a 'limitations act'.

2) The article makes repeated references to the banks' ''barrister'. Barristers do not hold the right of audience in the House of Lords - that being the preserve of QCs.

3) The banks did not ''admit the charges were unfair''. They simply said that it would be an irrelevance IF they were - a position they've held all along.

4) If the banks had ''given up'' defending their case then they wouldn't have hired Jonathon Sumption - about the most expensive QC there is - to, err, defend their case.

Quite what kind of jerks Neil Faulkner takes us for remains unclear.

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I don't know why I wrote barrister instead of QC. Well spotted, Polish Nightmare. Despite the rudeness - which is not allowed in article comments - I won't ask for that post to be deleted.

Neil (the author)

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I've just emailed the editor to ask to make changes, noting that the barrister (as he IS a barrister) is actually a senior barrister called a QC. (Note, he is BOTH.)

In the meantime, you may want to read about the statute of limitations - because it is A statute of limitations - which, in this country, was brought into effect using the Limitations Act.

This reference looks reasonably accurate, although I can't say I know much about its existence in Roman times:

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Statute+of+Limitations

:)

Neil (the author)

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So let me get this right: Rudeness is ''not allowed'' in article comments but untrue, sensationalist, baseless and wildly misleading articles are.

On what factual basis are the first two headlines - ''Banks admit charges are unfair'' and ''Banks are giving up defending penalty charges in order to focus on a much more serious issue that could double the payments to claimants'' ? I'd genuinely be interested to know.

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You can google 'statute of limitations' all you like but you will find that it doesn't apply to UK law. We have a 'limitation act 1980'.

idge said

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I love it when people (intelligently and with the relevant knowledge) challenge the written word, which many automatically assume to be true purely because it is written (in arrticles such as this one).  Well done to all those on this forum that fall into this category!!!

idge said

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Re Polish Nightmare's enquiry: "On what factual basis are the first two headlines - ''Banks admit

charges are unfair'' and ''Banks are giving up defending penalty

charges in order to focus on a much more serious issue that could

double the payments to claimants'' ? I'd genuinely be interested to

know."

I too would like an answer Mr Author, as clearly thiss gets to the core of the article you wrote, and whether it should have been written in the first place.

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Hi Neil,

Thanks. One of your technical team just got in contact with me so (hopefully) my posting problem will be wrapped up soon.

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Vertigo said

"I saw your note about technical problems. I'll try to throw my weight (such as it is) behind resolving them

Neil (the author)"

Hi Neil,

Thanks. One of your technical team just got in contact with me so (hopefully) my posting problem will be wrapped up soon.

  • 0 recommendations

 

Linz4291,

"This meant that on the Tuesday, a credit of over £1000 was waiting to be credited (and had been due to go in on the Monday) and my rent payment plus another DD were due to go out on the Tuesday. Instead of applying them in the order they were due - which would have left me £300 in credit - A&L for some inexplicable reason applied the debits first and then the credits. This meant I was overdrawn by about £100 for several minutes, for which they charged me £25! How on earth is that fair?!"

It's not and if I were you I would contact the banking omdubsman.

idge said

"I am well aware of the fact that banks make money from our money - that's called being a business."

So we're agreed - banks make money from us so banking is not 'free' it's simply another investment choice.

"Not only is it free, but they pay ME every month to bank with them.   0.1%!!!!"

So you also get a monetary return on your investment. Great.

"You must be one of those that incurs bank charges."

Yes, actually I am. I was charged £30 by Barclays because I paid in a wad of cash (over the counter) and then had the audacity to issue an electronic instruction for it to be moved the next working day.

"If the courts side with 'the little man' (the wrong little man in my opinion), then all the efficient (not wealthy!), 'correct' people will have to suffer through fees for banking and reduced interest rates."

Interesting theory. Alternatively the banks would maintain 'free' banking because they need our money to help them maintain their capital reserves and because they themselves make money from it.

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The problem with the article is that it relied almost exclusively on a single source who not only wasn't present at the appeal but has a track record of concocting quotes from judges to suit their agenda.

CAG had previously quoted the Master of the Rolls, when handing down his appeal court judgment, that the banks had ''no chance'' of a successful appeal to the House of Lords. Having been present at the handing down (as well as the House of Lords hearing) along with 7 colleagues I can assure you this was entirely fictiitious. Would a senior judge really comment on the prospects of an appeal to his judgment to a higher court?

Think about it.

If collectively we do not develop the skills to interpret information we're going to get easily manipulated, or we're going to walk around confused, ineffectual and powerless. It's our individual responsibility as citizens to do everything we can to ensure we really understand what is happening around us and don't just blindly accept what we're told- whether that be from the Government, the Opposition, the Banks, the media or our neighbours.

We're living in a dangerous time and there are a lot of people being manipulated. A lot of people believing what they read wthout questioning it because they don't have the tools to be able to question it. A lot of people want black and white answers but that's just abdicating our responsibility as citizens to debate and understand the issues. Let's hold those around us accountable but let's do it because we understand the issues and not because the media or vested interests tell us what to think. Only that way will we begin to move to the society we all want.

A judge would simply not comment

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"CAG had previously quoted the Master of the Rolls, when handing down

his appeal court judgment, that the banks had ''no chance'' of a

successful appeal to the House of Lords."

From what I remember, he had ruled that the case had no chance of success with the Law Loads and therefore denied the banks' request to appeal.

While that didn't stop them from doing so, it's not unusual for a judge to give a reason or a denial of a request.

"If collectively we do not develop the skills to interpret information

we're going to get easily manipulated, or we're going to walk around

confused, ineffectual and powerless. It's our individual responsibility

as citizens to do everything we can to ensure we really

understand what is happening around us and don't just blindly accept

what we're told- whether that be from the Government, the Opposition,

the Banks, the media or our neighbours."

I agree with this completely. Unfortuanely too many people follow just one or two news souces and fail to see or even attempt to see things from the other perspective. I know someone who reads the Sun and the Daily Mail for instance and regualry point out that what they say isn't the whole truth and is intedted to be presented in a way which appeals to a particular mindset.

Too many people either don't know or forget this.

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''From what I remember, he had ruled that the case had no chance of success with the Law Loads and therefore denied the banks' request to appeal.

While that didn't stop them from doing so, it's not unusual for a judge to give a reason or a denial of a request.''

But that's just it. Nowhere did the judge comment on the chances of an appeal to the HoLs. It just didn't happen. It was originally suggested in a less than accurate online BBC report and then further embelished by CAG.

''Unfortuanely too many people follow just one or two news souces and fail to see or even attempt to see things from the other perspective''

Exactly.

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