Would you use a tax avoidance scheme?

Simon Ward
by Lovemoney Staff Simon Ward on 21 June 2012  |  Comments 53 comments

Following revelations that comedian Jimmy Carr used an offshore company to slash his tax bill, we want to know your thoughts on the morals of legal tax avoidance.

Would you use a tax avoidance scheme?

Comedian Jimmy Carr has issued an apology after it was revealed his earnings were being paid via an offshore tax avoidance scheme.

An investigation by the Times newspaper revealed that Carr’s income was put through a Jersey-based company, K2, which then paid him in the form of tax-free loans.

Prime Minister David Cameron waded into the row, saying it was “morally wrong”.

In a series of tweets, Carr wrote: "I met with a financial advisor and he said to me: "Do you want to pay less tax? It's totally legal." I said: "Yes." I now realise I've made a terrible error of judgement."

HMRC says the K2 scheme is now under investigation.

There are separate allegations that three members of Take That – Gary Barlow, Howard Donald and Mark Owen – invested millions of pounds in a music industry scheme that helped them avoid paying tax.

There have also been stories about several groups of senior civil servants and consultants being paid via private companies, rather than through the Government payroll. Some have been accused of using this method to lower their tax bill.

But, if you could, would you use a legal tax avoidance scheme to lower your tax bill? Or do you think it's morally wrong? Vote in our poll below.

In March, Chancellor George Osborne called “aggressive” tax avoidance “morally repugnant” and announced the Government would be introducing a rule to stop it.

However, some tax experts doubt whether this will have the desired effect. One unnamed tax avoidance tax expert told the Times: "It’s a game of cat and mouse. The revenue closes one scheme, we find a way round it."

More on tax

Six easy ways to pay less tax

How to make sure you’re on the right tax code

Top tax havens for babies, children and teens

How the taxman could be misleading you

How a Robin Hood tax would benefit you

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Comments (53)

  • NatalieAndrew
    Love rating 6
    NatalieAndrew said

    Yes. People are disillusioned with westminster spending our hard earned tax on their priorities, not ours.

    If expenditure on our tax was transparent; communicated in plain english and justified .. perhaps we would be more inclined to want to 'pay it, not hide it'...

    Unfortunately for the majority working masses hiding it is not an option!

    Westminster should transfer their resources from tax evasion - to tax reform - and stop chasing a few rich celebrities who will always find a legal loophole.

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  • BobbyW
    Love rating 10
    BobbyW said

    So there is proof in the STRAWMAN theory then.... have a look makes a great read www.yourstrawman.com

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  • John Fitzsimons
    Love rating 30
    John Fitzsimons said

    I'd like to think that in that position I would feel too ashamed to actually use such a vehicle.

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  • teafoo
    Love rating 48
    teafoo said

    NatalieAndrew ... you are just SO, SO right.

    It wouldn't seem so bad to pay tax if it really were used properly. It is just as morally wrong to misuse and waste tax revenue as the government does, in fact it is criminal.

    And David Cameron is in no position to moralise - that is not his job. If he thinks it is wrong (and he isn't trying to do a similar thing) he should see about tax reform - right again Natalie.

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  • Lolanett
    Love rating 5
    Lolanett said

    If the Government regards these schemes as morally wrong, they better close the loopholes that allow them to exist, hadn't they? (By the way, I haven't any money and have always been a PAYE serf)

    As for a certain comedian, it is the hypocrisy that has caused all the fuss - don't try and satirise other people when you are doing the same thing yourself!

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  • JOHN MAXWELL
    Love rating 56
    JOHN MAXWELL said

    i think any form of tax avoidence is repugnant, reprehensible and disgusting, anyone indulging in this practice should be removed from civilised society - that is my firm believe until i am in a position to benefit from these schemes and one is offered to me!!!

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  • Witch Hazel
    Love rating 4
    Witch Hazel said

    Don't all of us try to pay as little tax as possible? I'm hardly rich - I earn well below the national average - but I choose to put my savings in an ISA so I don't pay tax. I could choose to squirrel my cash away in a standard savings account so I pay tax into the government coffers, but I don't.

    Let's not forget, this is a totally legal scheme. The scale may be different, but don't a lot of us make sure we're not paying more tax than we need to?

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  • JohnW
    Love rating 26
    JohnW said

    The term a tax avoidance makes it sound like it is something wrong. Either you obey the law or not. The fact that there are tax loopholes just shows the ineptitude of currrent and past governments in making laws that are sound and workable. There is nothing morally wrong in setting up your affairs to be tax efficient.

    I find it morally wrong the politicians can claims expenses they never incurred or spend tax payers money on thier own items, it is also morally wrong that people claim unemployment benefit when they could be working. I find it morally wrong that large companies such as Vodaphone and Barclays pay so little company tax yet can pay thier managers huge bonuses.

    I wonder how many politicians tax affairs would stand up to close scrutiny.

    The policiticians worry that clamping down on the rich will force them away and lead to even more losses, perhaps it will , but maybe that is something that needs to be done now and we can then get on with things. Look at Greece, its biggest problem is that not paying tax is a national pastime.

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  • eqcons
    Love rating 16
    eqcons said

    Good luck to Mr Carr, and anyone else who benefits. I'm sick of being taxed to death in this country, and no doubt so are they. Income Tax, Capital Gains Tax, VAT at 20%, Council Tax for one bin collection a week (no police station, no school, no street lighting, no road sweeping), National Insurance that's just more income tax, and doesn't go near the NHS, Road Tax that goes nowhere near maintaining the roads, which are rapidly becoming 3rd world standard, Stamp Duty, fuel duty, and VAT on the fuel duty!! And worst of all - Inheritance tax, on money/chattels bought with money that's already been taxed!

    Meanwhile, in this ailing society of ours, huge sums of the tax we pay are spent on foreign aid, and foreign wars that are a) nothing to do with us, and b) unwinnable, while pensioners die every winter because they can't heat their homes, and ill people are denied drugs and treatment that the NHS can't give them through lack of money!

    And Cameron has the brass neck to say that this legal scheme is immoral!! That's "rich" (no pun intended) coming from a millionaire politician, and his let-them-eat-cake cabinet, the vast majority of whom (at one point it was 23 out of 29) are also millionaires.

    Good on ya Jimmy Carr!

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  • sprog34
    Love rating 12
    sprog34 said

    Yes,most previous correspondence are correct. If these loopholes exist they are there to be exploited. What amazes me is that Jimmy Carr can command enough money in the first place to avoid tax.I think he a terrible excuse for a comedian,but,maybe that is because I can remember when we had real comedians.

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  • DaveDB
    Love rating 14
    DaveDB said

    Back in 1963 my father died suddenly with a heart attack, aged 64, and I lost a farm because HM Revenue took 55% Estate Duty off his estate. I call that legalised theft, also morally wrong, Mr. Cameron.

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  • tuttogallo
    Love rating 83
    tuttogallo said

    JohnW. The problem with this is that there is a continual arms race between the loophole finders and the loophole blockers. This results in the production of yards and yards of small print tax law every year. the whole situation becomes every more complicated so that even the experts have difficulty in knowing what the law says.

    Another unintentional side effect is that tax avoiders use existing facilities for their tax avoidance and these are then targeted by HMRC. Trusts are a case in point. These are now so heavily taxed (thanks to past used as tax avoidance vehicles) that they are now useless for their original purpose i.e. allowing a person to organise his affairs for when he is dead.

    For me the test is simple. Is the intention to avoid paying tax which would normally have to be paid? If yes then cough up!!! The fiscal black hole needs filling

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  • easygoing
    Love rating 157
    easygoing said

    I presume that if the bulk of the pay is given as a tax free loan then at some point it has to be paid back, otherwise it isn't a loan. Or am I missing something.

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  • Grobbendonk
    Love rating 27
    Grobbendonk said

    Tax avoidance? Yes. I would, and do (albeit not to the extent of the rich, I don't have the amounts needed to take advantage of most of the schemes)

    Until my government spends my money appropriately, I'll avoid giving them as much as I legally can.

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  • andrewjameshowar
    Love rating 25
    andrewjameshowar said

    If a smart tax advisor can draw up one of these schemes then a smart civil servant should be able to draft some legislation which blocks it. It's not as if this is a little known one-off - we are told 1000's of people are using these schemes.

    So what is morally repugnant to me is that those legions of well-paid, gold-plated-pensioned secure-jobbed chaps don't pull their thumbs out of their b**s and put a stop to it. And ditto George Osborne. And a decade of Gordon Brown, toadying to the rich and not doing a thing about this kind of abuse.

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  • CuNNaXXa
    Love rating 374
    CuNNaXXa said

    Tax avoidance is the preserve of the rich. The poor don't earn enough to warrant tax avoidance.

    My previous neighbour and his wife ran a local plant nursery, and freely indulged in tax avoidance, ranging from earning no more than their tax threshold (just over £7,000 at the time), and getting paid the rest of his money in the forms of loans and rent.

    His home, contents and consumables were all purchased as company stock, and even his four holidays a year were written off.

    Being self employed allows you to write off a good chunk of your tax bill. Even the weekly shop can be written off as tax deductible.

    The system doesn't work, except for those on PAYE, who cannot escape paying tax. For everyone else, there are loopholes and loopholes.

    It would probably be best to do away with income tax altogether and just have VAT payable on non essentials at a higher rate. After all, someone could avoid paying any tax, but they have to spend their money at some time or another, otherwise it becomes worthless (the value of money is dictated by what it can buy).

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  • Tashyman
    Love rating 3
    Tashyman said

    I can't see what the fuss is all about. It is a LEGAL system so why should Cameron and his cronies be up in arms saying it is morally wrong ? In my job I currently pay 0% tax and long may it continue as it is 100% legal !

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  • electricblue
    Love rating 653
    electricblue said

    Biggest shock was Jimmy Carr's earnings, as I would have at best rated him a third-rate comedian and presenter.

    I'd probably move to Gibraltar as they have a standard amount of tax regardless of earnings or nett worth. Jimmy Carr would have paid around £28K, but the poor man would then pay the same amount each year regardless of his earnings up or down. How many of the people we regard as super stars or top actors are actually resident in the UK for tax purposes anyway? Really, the thing Jimmy Carr did which was unforgivable and makes him a total hypocrite is the scathing sketch he did about Barclays only paying 1% tax. Unless David Cameron has been shown to use tax avoidance schemes there is nothing wrong with him slating Jimmy Carr.

    I don't give a toot that we have a cabinet of millionaires, as long as they at least try and keep in touch with the masses. That would be a lot more than Brown, Blair and Prescott ever managed (unless having your son buy council houses for peanuts and sell them on at a huge profit counts as being in touch) and then there's dear old Socialist Tony who isn't short of a bob or two.

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  • douglasbuchanan
    Love rating 9
    douglasbuchanan said

    The tories are the party of the rich. So they cut the benefits to the poor and reduce the taxes of the rich. They make noises about stopping tax dodging but we might wait a long time, like to the next election, before they do anything. Then they may be out of office and going to remunerative directorships etc. So of course they do not want to effectively tax the rich.

    Douglas Buchanan

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  • teafoo
    Love rating 48
    teafoo said

    Well said eqcons ..

    Multiple taxation is iniquitous., evil and morally wrong.

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  • Podzak
    Love rating 9
    Podzak said

    Of course I pay as much tax as I can!

    I also only buy full priced goods in the shops, avoid special offers, price reductions and multiple discounts and make a point of filling up at the dearest petrol station.

    I never accept change and have even walked past a £20 note without picking it up.

    When I handed a wallet I had found in to the police and the owner offered me a reward, I punched him in the gob!

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  • Talent
    Love rating 77
    Talent said

    Carr has gone running to the press complaints commission for intrusion into his privacy.... now that is the funniest thing he has ever done!

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  • Arblaster
    Love rating 40
    Arblaster said

    I deliberately keep my earnings low so as not to pay tax for the government to waste on parliamentary expenses, their inflated civil servants, their illegal wars, &c.

    Let us not have any hypocrisy. Just about everyone I know has an ISA, which is a way of deliberately avoiding tax. The government itself encourages tax avoidance with some of their NS&I products.

    My question here is not "Who is John Galt?" but "Who is Jimmy Carr?" Until this hooplah, I had never heard of him!

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  • Aitken B
    Love rating 125
    Aitken B said

    Politicians pontificating on morals? A phrase containing "pot" and "kettle" immediately springs to mind.

    It is of course galling to those who cannot that a select few can take advantage of these avoidance schemes. Generations of politicians have feathered their own nests via gold plated pension provisions, massive golden goodbyes (when they lose their seats or ministerial positions) and the expenses cash cow and all paid for by us, the taxpayers.

    They waste our money on a prodigious scale in other ways. A few hundred £million here a few hundred £million there on pet projects that fail miserably. The NHS computer system, ID Cards to name but a couple of things that we the people didn't want and were dumped because they didn't work or were unacceptable. What about the aircraft carriers with no aircraft? What about destroying new perfectly good Nimrod aircraft so we can buy American? And then there's the great money drain across the channel in Brussels costing us about £90m per day NET. £90M per day to have them tell us how to run our lives?

    And as for their bungling incompetence that has led to our present financial state - lots of expletives spring to mind.

    And do any of them suffer any sanction at all for their incompetence, dishonourable conduct, greed and waste? Of course not.

    TAX is to a politician like crack cocane is to an addict. Until they learn some probity and to properly conserve OUR money, I think it is every red blooded UK person's duty to use every legal means to keep as much of our money away from them as possible. I should like to see employers set up schemes to assist their employees minimise their tax liability (I don't mean by paying them less).

    Before any politician points the accusing finger at anyone else they should take a good look at themselves first. A pointing hand has one finger pointing at the target and three fingers pointing backwards - take the hint MPs.

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  • exportlink88
    Love rating 24
    exportlink88 said

    What a no brainer. The government's job is to govern. Its instrument is the legal system. It is morally wrong to pass laws to allow the governed to avoid the intended result and then to criticise the act as morally wrong. The best one can say is incompetence of those in power to govern over us.

    Is tax avoidance morally wrong compared to say, that family on benefits with with 11 children ? The grandmother who fostered her 7 grandchildren for £700 each per week of tax payers money ? The single mother on benefits with 5 kids ? The foreigners coming here to have their kids ? Or stay here afterwards on benefits ? These are all legal. Did Cameron say anything about these being morally wrong ?

    Is it morally wrong to shop around for the cheapest price ?

    Is it morally not to pay any more than you have to ?

    Is it morally wrong to tax out of existence those who became rich through hard work, diligence and risk taking ?

    Is it morally wrong not to work hard to become rich ourselves ?

    What a no brainer.

    I think all those who think it is morally wrong for the rich to try to pay less for anything legally should work hard, take risks and become rich themselves so they have the opportunity to be morally wrong also.

    As for Cameron and all politicians alike, he should take up pipe smoking for it stops a fool from talking.

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  • bobmattfran
    Love rating 58
    bobmattfran said

    Having read all the comments, it is no wonder why we are were we are. I thought t first that I had signed into the British Bankers Association, or the website of the 1922 Committee.But, no I am disappointed that the British people who use to believe in fair play for all have succumbed to the ideology that greed is right. Disappointed because I thought perhaps there were a few out there who were sufficiently motivated to give their due in taxation as recognition at least, that they have had the benefit of education, opportunity and a level of wealth, supported collectively by all other honest taxpayers.

    I am fortunately moving to France and will eventually apply for French citizenship, I will pay more tax in France than I would at the highest rate in the UK. I will at least be among people who value the human spirit above the tawdry and greedy perception of money at all costs.

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  • Stuff the taxman
    Love rating 2
    Stuff the taxman said

    Cameron is a hypocrit. Jimmy is right to pay as little as posible, he is stupid to start groveling on twitter or whereever. Why should he pay more into what is basically a corrupt racket. Yes we have all heard the tear jerkers about hospitals and all that, but what about the billions wasted through incompetance and arrogance?

    What about the royals who sponge millions every year from the tax payer. What about all the grace and favour homes? do any of the MP's pay the up keep on these places or the wages of the staff that wash their backs when they are living it up at our expense each weekend? do they even just pay the council tax on these flash country pads? What about the millions fiddled by MP's in expenses? Yes they hung one or two dead legs out to dry while the bulk of the fiddlers resigned and pocketed their pension but what about the principle theft is theft?. What about all the first class round the world travel with their wives and mates all at our expense? This list goes on and on.

    They all claim they are serving the country when really they are serving themselves then when its all over they promise each other seats in the lords, nighthoods and a fat pension on top.

    Bottom line they serve themselves first and foremost, and the rest of us? we are left facing all the failure, add in the tax rises they had planned before the election but forgot to warn us about before we voted for them. 20% VAT is first to spring to mind.

    So milking and taxing the rich to death for spite just because Camerons gang is the biggest and all the rules are rigged up to give Camerons gang the upper hand, then when the so called rich are dead, the tax man takes the bulk of whats left in the bank under the facade of death duties, sorry I dont agree.

    Lets start with an honest government until then its two fingers to Cameron and his bunch of ( tax ) con men.

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  • wilpenzig
    Love rating 1
    wilpenzig said

    What about all these footballers they get round tax the same as the others already mentioned so all should pay tax on what they earn

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  • sludgeguts
    Love rating 56
    sludgeguts said

    It is morally wrong for politicians to claim expenses the way that they do - Liddington claiming for deodorant etc - as if it is something extra that he would have to buy for his job. someone else claiming for a duck pond (or whatever it was). Politicians have been milking the system for years without joe public knowing much about it.

    It is wrong that politicians can claim for additional housing - when all they need is a cheap place to lay their head of a night - they have all the luxuries they need in 'the house' (heavily subsidised restaurant & bar) so why do they need luxury apartments or houses as well?

    I think the poll says it all really, if we were in that position, 88% of us would look at ways of reducing our tax bill (and hasn't the Royal family been avoiding taxes for many years?)

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  • bengilda
    Love rating 80
    bengilda said

    Taxation is a legally binding obligation imposed upon us by political parasites using detailed legislation.

    If we are obliged to pay taxes strictly in line with the legislation with, often draconian, penalties imposed by civil servants should we be wrong, then it is equally obligatory upon us to legally avoid paying taxes where this is feasible without being in breach of the tax legislation.

    If this is not acceptable to politicians then they should sack the civil servants who drafted the legislation with the holes.

    Unfortunately for me I am stuck fairly and squarely in PAYE.

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  • dilbert999
    Love rating 8
    dilbert999 said

    It's not surprising the rich want to avoid taxes if the government's taking 45% of what they earn. I'm pretty hacked-off paying a third of what I earn to them. Once upon a time, even PAYE wage slaves could avoid tax through things like Life Assurance Premium Relief and Mortgage Interest Relief, but one by one the government removed them, and now it's only those on high incomes who find it worth while employing accountants to find ways to reduce their tax bill. In turn this fosters an attitude of resentment among those who can't do anything about their tax bill towards those who can. Classic divide-and-conquer strategy by the government.

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  • mosicle
    Love rating 19
    mosicle said

    As someone who has always had low paid employment, i would jump at the chance to pay less tax, especially when I have been hounded by HMRC for £800 in tax which was down to their incompetence. they agreed they had all the information but got it wrong!!! I am now having to pay this back monthly as I am now a pensioner, and don't receive enough money to pay it off. David Cameron, wasted no time in pillorying Jimmy Carr but I noticed that as soon as he was challenged about Phillip Green, he backed off pretty sharpish. How can he and his government condemn one person and condone another. Looking after their own yet again. Of course this IS supposed to show us that "we are all in this together" What a bunch of hypocrites!!! One has to either be from their type of background or you have to be a billionaire like Green. There is no way anyone could say that Green is not using a tax avoidance cop out!!! Why else is his company in his wifes name and she lives in Monaco or the like. So, it begs the quesion, why was Cameron not pepared to comment on his morality??????? More double standards.

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  • uutasyw
    Love rating 7
    uutasyw said

    I think it is morally wrong for an individuals private legal tax affairs to be put in the public domain & to be attacked directly by our PM.

    While not a wealthy individual myself I also find these personal attacks on individuals, which I can only assume is down to jealously, distasteful and says more about the person making the attack.

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  • houstonstewart
    Love rating 24
    houstonstewart said

    Cameron's attack on Carr is simply an attempted distraction from the many issues as pointed out by other commentators.

    Tax Evasion is a crime, Tax Avoidance isn't and never has been. The legislators make the rules not the 'players' (or should that be 'payers'), so if there is a crime it's the fact the legislators have made the system so complicated, it's only to be expected loopholes exist and are there to be exploited.

    What is so strange is the way Carr has now Kowtowed without defending his original decision to use this scheme, after all the 'moral compass' was the same then as it is now. The only difference is his decision is now in the 'public eye' and I think he misjudged 'common opinion' would actually overall support legal 'Tax Avoidance' and no doubt for many would be held as a hero for beating a system they can't.

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  • edwardmk2879
    Love rating 57
    edwardmk2879 said

    The utter corruption and staggering hypocrisy of government. The appetite of the system is totally out of control as evidenced by the gargantuan National Debt of over £1000,000,000,000.00p. Indeed, this is the lower estimate. Some calculate our National Debt is over 5 trillion pounds. These people would take 100% of what you earn, and still manage to get into deeper debt. For centuries the penalty for corrupting the currency by clipping or forging coins was death for the criminals who did it. Now it's been re-branded 'quantative easing' and those who do it get rich, while the rest of us suffer the consequences of a diminishing pound in our pocket. Annuities destroyed for prudent pensioners, continuous price inflation of essential commodities, rampant house price inflation, council tax hikes above inflation, reduction of services across the board. All caused by lax monetary policies by mandarins in government.

    Most of those posting 'get it'. Anyone who doesn't do everything legal within their power to avoid taxes is a fool. The government will find other ways to get it anyway, as DaveDB can attest.

    Money printing damages the week and vulnerable in society the most, but this is how governments routinely 'fix' their problem of overspending and profligacy, at the expense of the weakest. Then they try to make anyone with any money left feel guilty for trying to hang onto some of it, while they carry on claiming for deodorants and duck houses.

    That first class private flight was tough, but I had to do it for the good of the country! Besides, I'm worth it, but you are not. Your job is not to question the taxes we need, and hand over what you're told to..or else.

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  • buywhenhigh
    Love rating 51
    buywhenhigh said

    No one likes paying tax, especially when us hard working taxpayers seen to be subsidising an ever growing number skivers, benefit cheats and 10 child families.

    I minimise every penny I pay, and I begrudge paying anything if the truth be told, seeing loads of my friends and even family taking the p1ss out of the system and laughing in my face.

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  • Poorpensioner
    Love rating 36
    Poorpensioner said

    Tax evasion is wrong. Tax avoidance is everybody's duty!

    If it's illegal, don't do it. If it's legal, you are perfectly entitled to do it.

    Saying it's legal, but you naughty comedian should not have done it is jargon for slack law. This particular individual's "crime" was hypocrisy, and the PM is a prime example of that . . .

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  • Justkeepgoing
    Love rating 28
    Justkeepgoing said

    Isn't it a touch of hypocrisy that Cameron suggests that one individual and ill advised comedian was morally wrong to use a tax avoidance scheme, when members of his party and government knowingly do the same. When is he going to insist that all MPs and members of the House of Lords pay all the tax that they should on their income? How long has he been asking Lord Ashcroft to pay tax on all his earnings rather than use off shore accounts in Belize. Either he is a resident of the UK and eligible to sit in the Lords or he lives in Belize not both.

    Isn't it odd that at one time the reputation of MP was believed to be important and that now they have less credibility than tabloid journalists.

    At one time if anyone was invited to chair a public body it was an honour and they received only expenses, but now they are grossly overpaid.

    Unless parliament takes control of the greed shown at the top of our society then we shall be in the same situation as Greece where tax avoidance is the norm and the government is unable to raise enough taxation to pay for its basic needs.

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  • pfr
    Love rating 1
    pfr said

    Your survey shows that most people will avoid tax if they can. But doing so leads to higher taxation to achieve a given revenue required for public finances. Higher taxes encourage more tax avoidance and evasion and they also discourage hard work and enterprise, further reducing the tax base.

    The only remedy is to introduce a tax system which is impossible to avoid or evade, is fair and also encourages economic activity. The only system which meets all these criteria is the system of Land Value Taxes (LVT). They are impossible to avoid or evade, as land cannot be hidden and can't be moved abroad. Furthermore, LVT are fair because land values (i.e.without the development upon it) are not created by the individual landowner, but by the community as a whole which develops the land around, and not least the general taxpayer via public expenditure on infrastructure and services

    LVT will also incentivise land owners to develop to the full, subject to planning permission, stimulating economic growth and creating employment..LVT are also easy to understand and cheap to collect.

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  • Klawman
    Love rating 17
    Klawman said

    What this basically highlights is the pressing need for a ground-up reform of the tax and benefits system.

    The official Handbook runs to thousands of pages (I believe New Zealand's is about 70 pages). Nobody can hope to understand it all. Given the ludicrous complexity of the tax system, is it surprising that clever accountants keep finding loopholes?

    As it stands, paying tax is essentially optional/voluntary for the very rich, be they company bosses and board memembers, or footballers and entertainers.

    There is also a big difference between ISAs, which are designed to incentivise small-time savings and investments, and deliberately setting out to avoid paying hundreds of thousands in tax.

    PS. I voted "no" because I have a social conscience. More fool me ?

    Report on 22 June 2012  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • PDB11
    Love rating 73
    PDB11 said

    There seems to be a lot of disagreement about what constitutes tax avoidance.

    John Maxwell said "i think any form of tax avoidence is repugnant". Does that means he doesn't bother to declare any of the expenditure he could offset against tax on his tax return? Does that mean he thinks it's morally wrong to put one's savings in an ISA instead of a savings account? Maybe, but I doubt it. As Klawman says, there is a difference between these things and the big schemes for the rich, but both are "tax avoidance" by any reasonable definition.

    I already use a great tax avoidance scheme. It's called "gift aid". Money I give to charity can be moved from one tax year to another to offset against higher rate tax.

    Another one is "self employment". I can't offset rent and holidays the way the people in CuNNaXXa's anecdote did - my self employment income is a couple of hundred a year taht I earn on the side as a freelance church organist - but I offset quite a bit of sheet music against income for tax purposes. (I suspect that many people wouldn't bother to declare that sort of income at all; but when some of the fees are coming from churches to which I give under a gift aid agreement, the opportunity for abuse is too obvious, and I wanted to be squeaky clean.)

    I actually sympathise with one politician - I think it was in the Blair government - who said that people complain about rich folk using all these loopholes to avoid paying tax; but when the government plugs the loopholes, people complain about stealth taxes!

    Incidentally, @Klawman, why does your social conscience dictate a "no" vote? A social conscience might dictate eschewing tax avoidance, in which case you vote no because that's true. But voting no because you have a social conscience? All that does is make it look as though fewer people would use these schemes, and therefore there is less need for the reforms you rightly assert are necessary. So, althouigh I hadn't decided how to vote until I wrote that, I'm now going to go back up the page and vote yes.

    Report on 22 June 2012  |  Love thisLove  1 love
  • culluding-fool
    Love rating 52
    culluding-fool said

    The tax man will make money from me any way he can legally get away with so it makes logical sense for me to do the same. The more I don't spend on tax, the more I spend in local shops helping local businesses, so I would feel I am doing more for my country by avoiding paying as much tax as I can get away with.

    Report on 22 June 2012  |  Love thisLove  1 love
  • ronat42
    Love rating 62
    ronat42 said

    Buywhenhigh. I do sympathise but advise that you do what I do. I tell them that they are a load of thieving crooks and to pi$$ off and if their abuse is blatant, report them. I have recycled a few of my "friends" in the past and am much happier for it. We have 2 choices.

    Join them and live with the concequences.

    Fight back.They are still in the minority -just.

    Our kids are important and the efforts of our ancestors have cost too much to be thrown away.

    As far as the lack of control of the tax avoiders is concerned and a lot of other inefficiencies in our government are concerned, remember that we get what we vote for an if they are promising a better life than we can afford they are incompetent or liars and that is just what we get. Look at Greece!

    We have a democracy. Stand up to the mark and use it responsibly!

    Report on 22 June 2012  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • oldhenry
    Love rating 274
    oldhenry said

    So Cameldung thinks Mr Carr's avoidance is morally wrong but seems to totally ignore the fact that his civil servant ,in charge of HMRC ,has let Vodaphone of millions of tax after a good lunch. The same person has also ley merchant banks off millions and no doubt will continue to do so. Mr Carr's mistake may have been not to give the tories a suitabe donation? There are no morals at all in the governmnet and how the country is run. It is dog eat dog and hypocrisy rules, you muts pay as little as possible otherwise you are a sucker, it is as simple as that.

    Also do not forget that the HMRC have used tax avoidance schemes themselves with proerty leasebacks from overseas countries. You should all read teh private Eye more closely to find out what is really going on, do not belive the spouting of Cameldung and his rich mates. I believe thhat solar panel/wind turbines s are tax avoidance schemes too. That is where Cameldung's father in law has invested in so many.

    Report on 22 June 2012  |  Love thisLove  1 love
  • Mike10613
    Love rating 600
    Mike10613 said

    The Tory mantra is no regulation. This is the result, everything needs regulating because of that human frailty called greed. The more people have, the more they appear to want. They are insecure souls who need an adoring public, this applies to all celebrities and politicians. Their greed needs to be controlled. We have even had doctors on strike this week to preserve their incomes and they actually deserve to make a few quid. I'm not sure if I want doctors still practising at 68 years old either.

    We see many companies operating off-shore like Amazon. Individuals putting assets into a limited company to avoid tax like some previous prime ministers. We have people accepting honours that look like they are being honoured for what is a actually defrauding the people, not providing them with entertainment.

    We need the system regulated and democratised. Companies need to be controlled by regulation and by their share holders. Many shareholders have shares in nominee accounts now which is more efficient but doesn't encourage them to vote on issues like executive pay. We need to curb excess and greed at all levels of society and stop behaviour that is against the people and against the public interest. The rules should apply to Royalty, their cohorts, politicians, chief executives, celebrities and even financial journalists. We are collectively responsible and wealth doesn't mean you can throw the rule book away and all moral guidelines just because it's not 'illegal'.

    Report on 22 June 2012  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Mars Express
    Love rating 12
    Mars Express said

    I voted YES - because I already use legal tax avoidance schemes.

    I have both cash and shares ISAs, and both of these are legal tax avoidance schemes. I do NOT think that ISAs are "morally wrong". Other tax avoidance schemes I use which I do NOT think are "morally wrong" are National Savings. Also, by saving into a pension scheme I also benefitted by getting a "tax free" lump sum, which is yet another tax avoidance scheme that I do NOT think is "morally wrong".

    I think Lovemoney is asking the wrong question, don't you?

    Report on 22 June 2012  |  Love thisLove  1 love
  • electricblue
    Love rating 653
    electricblue said

    @Mike10613

    Pretty much agree with everything you said but the Tories don't seem any better at deregulation than Labour were, whatever their supposed mantra. As the Americans would say for both parties, SNAFU.

    It would be nice to have a Prime Minister with a normal speaking voice for a once. I rather like William Hague, but he still sounds like a nasal ten year old, Cameron sounds like he swallowed a plum and Milliband just looks and sounds like a muppet.

    Report on 22 June 2012  |  Love thisLove  1 love
  • Simon Ward
    Love rating 5
    Simon Ward said

    Mars Express, I think the implication of the question is pretty clear. I'm sure most of us on here use tax avoidance schemes in some shape or form. But the question isn't asking about ISAs or childcare vouchers.

    Report on 22 June 2012  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • isobelsgrandma
    Love rating 35
    isobelsgrandma said

    Surely putting some of your hard-earned, tax-paid income into an ISA (an approved savings scheme with a very low annual limit) is a million miles (or £s) away from using an offshore company to have your earnings paid virtually tax free?

    Report on 22 June 2012  |  Love thisLove  2 loves
  • CuNNaXXa
    Love rating 374
    CuNNaXXa said

    Firstly, I agree wholeheartedly with everything msmoneywise has just said.

    Secondly, wasn't it reported recently that Blair, the former PM of this proud country of ours, paid a pittance in tax even though he earned something in the region of £12 million.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/blairs-company-paid-just-315000-tax-on-income-of-more-than-12m-6287001.html

    The simple truth is that the super rich can afford to use professionals to eliminate much of their obligation to the tax man, using loopholes. Mind you, isn't it the super rich who write the rules in the first place. Considering this simple fact, are they really loopholes, or are they back doors created by the super rich to ensure that they can channel their money through the system without much in the way of penalty.

    If I were running this country, I would ensure that any thing put into place would not be detrimental to myself, and so do our current leaders. Can you honestly see an MP, or a PM, suggesting implementing a rule or regulation that would disadvantage this super class? Of course not. They look after themselves, as they are special.

    Report on 22 June 2012  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • charles125
    Love rating 52
    charles125 said

    The problem is simply this. However morally reprehensible and objectionable some of these tax avoidance schemes are, as long as they remain legal, there will always be very unscrupulous people who can and will take advantage of such schemes and regardless of their ability to pay, pay as little tax as possible.

    So it all comes down to David Cameron and HM Treasury closing these tax loopholes down. But will they?

    Report on 26 June 2012  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Arblaster
    Love rating 40
    Arblaster said

    pfr said: "The only remedy is to introduce a tax system which is impossible to avoid or evade..." They already have one, and they are using it already. The government does not need to collect tax at all: all they have to do is inflate the currency.

    Report on 28 June 2012  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • lordswood
    Love rating 1
    lordswood said

    Certainly would, if only I had enough money to pay tax on!

    Report on 24 July 2012  |  Love thisLove  0 loves

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