Save our Savouries: `pasty tax' protestors take to Westminster

Robert Powell
by Lovemoney Staff Robert Powell on 27 April 2012  |  Comments 16 comments

Hundreds of bakers have protested against Government plans to add VAT to freshly baked goods such as pasties, pies and sausage rolls, as Robert Powell reports.

 

Around 300 bakers from across the country have protested at Downing Street against the so-called ‘pasty tax’.

Dressed mainly in white hats and chef coats, the bakers delivered a petition to Downing Street containing, they claim, over half a million signatures.

They want the Government to scrap proposals to add VAT at 20% to freshly baked goods such as pasties, pies and sausage rolls, saying the change is unfair on customers and will be impossible to enforce.

The demonstration was organised by the National Association of Master Bakers and the high street bakery Greggs, with the petition signatures collected in regional branches of the chain.

Ken McMeikan, chief executive of Greggs, said that the proposed change was the wrong tax at the wrong time.

“This is a time when the Government really needs to be stimulating growth. So we don’t want prices of everyday food going up. We want to give the consumer confidence that they should be spending again. We want to get more jobs created and more shops opening on the high street,” he said.

Redraw the boundaries

The Government has so far refused to change course on the plans that were tabled last month in the Budget.

Prime Minister David Cameron told the Commons that he understood why “feeling in Cornwall runs high on this” but still insisted that the change was a fair one.

Chancellor George Osborne added, in a Treasury Select Committee session: "I am seeking to just stick with the position that hot, takeaway food has VAT on it. If you buy your pasty in a fish and chip shop, it almost certainly has VAT on it. If the pasty is heated up in a microwave it has VAT on it".

Ambient temperature

Former Chancellor Nigel Lawson introduced VAT on hot food in the 1980s. However still-warm, freshly-baked goods were declared exempt.

The proposed changes would make any product that is sold “above ambient temperature” subject to VAT, while products served “below ambient air temperature” would remain exempt.

Arthur Harris, CEO of the North-Yorkshire based bakery The Pie People, thinks that the proposed changes would prove impossible to police.

“If we sold pasties two weeks ago in Scarborough, when Scarborough was 17 degrees, we would have been ok selling them without VAT. But if we had sold the same product in Newcastle – where the ambient temperature that day was 16 degrees - we would have had to charge VAT,” he said.

The Government consultation period on the new tax runs until 18 May with the proposed changes due to come in from October.

Your take

Is this a fair tax?

Let us know what you think using the comment box below.

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Comments (16)

  • electricblue
    Love rating 643
    electricblue said

    Probably fair, but impractical and unenforceable. I'm a bit disappointed that government advisers do not have higher priorities. In the grand scheme of things the inequity of VAT on some foods was not really a huge money spinning loophole.

    Report on 27 April 2012  |  Love thisLove  5 loves
  • Rossco
    Love rating 2
    Rossco said

    As a baker we have charged vat on hot pies since the 1980's. The legislation currently seems to settle on a subtelty, the intention of the retailer. If it is the retailers intention to sell hot pies it is vatable, otherwise it is simply the sale of fresh food. (the customers intention is irrelevant). We feel vat on hot pies is unfair and they should be zero rated but at least the change introduces consistency. Ideally we should follow Europe on this one and onyl apply vat on food if there is a distinct catering element. This applies to sandwiches in the UK- they are zero rated unless supplied on a platter in which case it is a catering supply and standard rated. Who said vat is meant to be simple!!!!

    Report on 28 April 2012  |  Love thisLove  2 loves
  • mrs weatherley
    Love rating 31
    mrs weatherley said

    tax on food is reprehensible people need to eat what and how hot ought to be irrelevant.

    Report on 28 April 2012  |  Love thisLove  2 loves
  • guardian1
    Love rating 8
    guardian1 said

    I think the taxing of these foods is both wrong and ridiculous. If a person on their way to work buys a pasty fresh out of the oven, intending to eat it cold at lunchtime, they will be charged 20% more than if they left the office at lunch time and bought one which has cooled down! Perhaps in an ideal world we would all be making our own healthy packed lunches on a daily basis. In the real world, people are busy, rushing around getting kids to childminders, nurseries or schools and then rushing to get to work on time. This is a tax which - like most of the others this government supports - will hit the poorer members of the community much harder than it will the richer.

    Also, as a previous comment says, this is not the time to be reducing spending on the high street. The big bakery chains might be able (only might) to absorb the VAT in order to encourage customers to keep buying. What about the small independent bakers? They will not be able to absorb a 20% increase and it's likely even more small businesses will go bust, leading to 'ghost town' type high streets or, what is almost as bad, only supermarket 'locals' or 'metros' to choose from.

    Report on 28 April 2012  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • CuNNaXXa
    Love rating 362
    CuNNaXXa said

    It surprises me that people are backing this campaign to stop VAT on Pasties in such large numbers, while the FairFuelUK campaign, designed to try and ease the burden on the motorist, has only received half the support that the Pasty campaign has received.

    It seems that people accept rising Petrol and Diesel prices without question, but add 20p to the cost of a Pasty, and people get up in arms about it.

    Let's be honest, if the DUTY of fuels was reduced to help stimulate the economy, you could afford to splash out lots of 20p pieces to buy as many Pasties as possible. Also, if delivering Pasties from the manufacturer (Ginsters is still the biggest pasty maker) costs less, due to lower fuel DUTY, the savings would more than offset the additional VAT on the product, making it possibly cheaper.

    I also think the idea of the Pasty Tax was a way to distract us lot from the real issues, such as Pensioners being hit again, and increases in fuel DUTY, and it has worked. With over half a million signatures to protest this HUGE injustice, things such as fuel DUTY and pensioners being hit again get discretely changed.

    Wake up Britain. There are more important issues than paying tax on something you might, or might not, buy. People can live without a pasty, but deprive them of fuel, and how many people would be able to find alternative ways to get to work?

    I'd rather see a campaign fighting for something we need (diesel and petrol), rather than something we might buy on a whim (pasties, sausage rolls etc.)

    Report on 28 April 2012  |  Love thisLove  7 loves
  • Mike10613
    Love rating 599
    Mike10613 said

    It is silly to have tax on pies in chips shops and not in supermarkets. The solution was simple, tax food eaten on the premises like restaurants and zero rate food taken away. Simple. Too simple for politicians and civil servants though.

    We have university educated stupid people running the country. I suspect they teach stupidity in some universities... It's a 21st century epidemic...

    Report on 28 April 2012  |  Love thisLove  2 loves
  • tommills
    Love rating 23
    tommills said

    VAT is an EU tax & as such is controlled by Brussels. This change had to be brought in to comply with the recent legal ruling in Germany that all hot takeaway food should have the same rate of VAT ( in the case of the UK either 0% or 20% ) . So Osborne had a choice - impose 20% on pasties & the like to make them the same as fish & chips or scrap the 20% on fish & chips & lose all the revenue. The rest is history with no mention of the elephant in the room - the EU.

    Report on 28 April 2012  |  Love thisLove  3 loves
  • steady45
    Love rating 2
    steady45 said

    I t is absolutely ridiculous , we are in another recession people are not buying so much shops are closing down and Jobs are hard to find yet more tax is going to be taken by the Goverment, this country is a joke . our ancestors who fought in the war to stop this country being taken over by Hitler died for nothing, as now we are being ruled by Brussels. About time the british people stood up for there selves , I mean all british not just a few .

    .

    Report on 28 April 2012  |  Love thisLove  2 loves
  • CuNNaXXa
    Love rating 362
    CuNNaXXa said

    The beauty of the political system in place in many countries is that the elite minority get to choose how the majority live.

    Whether this is a good idea or bad idea is up for debate, but when significant changes to society are pushed through without a referendum, then we should question how we are led.

    Remember that concepts such as monarchy are purely administrative. Does anyone truly believe that the Queen of England really is the head of the Church of England, and speaks for God, or do we believe that religions have been corrupted by the rich and powerful over many generations to ensure that they remain at the top of the tree.

    Remember that the Church of England is a breakaway from the original Roman Catholic, and even that is a corruption of what was practised thousands of years ago.

    Of course, this is not a question whether one believes in God or not, but how religion has become a tool of the rich and power in controlling the population.

    Now I am not against some sort of control. The modern world is at this stage because someone has taken control of the helm of this ship we call society, and every ship needs a captain. But I would like to see a set up whereby those who lead us do some from a position that benefits us, not them. At the moment, nearly all politicians are in the game for what they can get out of the game, and a very small minority actually do it because they WANT to make a difference.

    In fact, do a simple test to see how caring your local MP is. Send them a note telling them you are not happy with a specific aspect of their work, such as the current fuel duty worries, and see if they respond. In my experience, they don't respond, as they cannot be bothered to deal with the people they count on to elect them.

    I have tried to contact my local MP on several occasions to deal with local issues, and have hit a brick wall. It turns out that many MPs just don't want the hassle of dealing with the masses. After all, they are special, and should be treated as such. The ELITE of the community, I guess.

    Oh, and remember that laws are passed by the rich and powerful, to protect the rich and powerful. Just imagine those who created what has become the modern alphabet applied Intellectual Property rights to it, then licensed the rest of us to use the alphabet.

    Just think of many concepts that were developed by one group, then copied and improved by another group. The production line that Henry Ford conceived has ended up being the mainstay of global industry. If he has IP'd that concept, we would only be driving Fords mass produced.

    Even more recently, the IBM PC, powered by an Intel 8086 or 8088 (depending on which variant you bought), was soon copied by AMD who have been making Intel clone chips for as long as Intel has been producing processor chips for the PC (early 80s). If AMD hadn't copied the Intel chip, processors would probably be more expensive today, as the chips war has driven down the cost of processors, while driving up the technology.

    Of course, today the big thing is IP, or Intellectual Property. One company in the US is actually copyrighting gene sequences, which are naturally occurring. When a company creates a concept, then blocks anyone from expanding on that concept, you create stifling. Throughout history, ideas and concepts have evolved as new groups expand on what has gone before, but if you suddenly make evolution illegal, then there is something direly wrong.

    Report on 29 April 2012  |  Love thisLove  1 love
  • sodit
    Love rating 127
    sodit said

    I look forward to every bakery selling cold pies and providing a microwave oven for the customer to heat it up after it's been bought.

    Report on 30 April 2012  |  Love thisLove  1 love
  • CuNNaXXa
    Love rating 362
    CuNNaXXa said

    @ sodit...

    A lot of forecourts already do this, so I would imagine it wouldn't take long before some shops offer this service.

    In fact, there is a little pie shop somewhere in the Peak District that already does this. You buy the pie, then ask the lady to pop it into the microwave for you (after you have paid her). Such a simple way of avoiding paying VAT.

    Report on 01 May 2012  |  Love thisLove  1 love
  • rbgos
    Love rating 81
    rbgos said

    I cannot believe that such a big fuss is being made over such a minor change??? Really, how many people buy so many hot pies that paying an extra 20-30p will make a difference to them? And George Osbourne's argument makes sense, that he's only ensuring that the same pie is taxed by the same amount wherever you buy it - why should one shop have a 20% advantage over another because it calls itself a bakery rather than a cafe?

    On one even more minor issue, I would suggest a change - the fact that the cut-off is the ambient temperature, that changes day by day. I'd propose a fixed temperature of, say, 30deg, easier to define and measure and more consistent.

    Report on 03 May 2012  |  Love thisLove  2 loves
  • rbgos
    Love rating 81
    rbgos said

    CuNNaXXa - I have written to or emailed my local MP several times, and have always received a written reply from them (or more likely, a lowly-payed intern!). This has been the case for several different MPs I have had.

    OK, they may have disagreed with my view, and may well have ignored it, but they have heard and responded to it. If your MP isn't responding to letters, I suspect you're in a minority.

    Report on 03 May 2012  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • nrk
    Love rating 0
    nrk said

    CuNNaXXa, your point about tax on fuel almost made sense. Even though I may digress from the topic (tax on hot food from a pie shop) I think there may be some relevance here, as we are talking of applied VAT.

    I think the majority are missing a very big glaring unfairness about this fuel tax. We are basically taxed on tax! Duty is applied to fuel then it is taxed, is that fair? Maybe the way forward is for the government to apply VAT to the basic cost of fuel and then add the duty!

    This way the cost of fuel for the motorist will be reduced giving more money to spend on other basic needs. Also, more importantly, this would reduce the costs for haulage companies. Then maybe, just maybe, the cost of food etc. will come down marginally. Everyone wins.

    Of course a short sighted government may not see it this way, but for the long term could go a long way to recovery of our economy.

    Report on 04 May 2012  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • maddicks
    Love rating 6
    maddicks said

    I don't think I have ever had a hot burger from Macdonald's - always lukewarm. Can I reclaim the tax? Could this be the next PPI??!!

    Report on 04 May 2012  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Alan Gallon
    Love rating 5
    Alan Gallon said

    There is VAT on ice cream which is sold well below the ambient temperature. Can we look forward to cheaper ice cream...somehow I doubt it.

    On another tack, we are encouraged to save energy. I regularly buy a freshly barbecued chicken from the supermarket - it saves me using my oven. Now, to keep prices stable & VAT free, shops will use energy cooking food, and more energy cooling food; and I will then use yet more energy re-heating the food - if this is joined-up government then.......

    Report on 10 May 2012  |  Love thisLove  0 loves

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