Debt: The Warning Signs And What To Do

Laura Starkey
by Lovemoney Staff Laura Starkey on 28 November 2008  |  Comments 42 comments

Most of us find we're in debt at some point during our lives. But how much is too much debt? And what can you do if you realise you're in trouble?

Whatever you might think about consumer debt, there's little doubt that it's been `normalised' in recent years.

The rise of credit cards has meant that more people have easy-access to debt than ever before. Up until last year, massive mortgages were readily available to home-buyers with small (or non-existent) deposits. In addition, thousands of young people sign up for student loans every year -- but also end up using bank overdrafts and credit cards to keep them afloat while they study.

You could say that, as a nation, we're adrift on a sea of debt. So how are you supposed to know when you're starting to sink?

But I'm just about managing.

If you just about manage to keep your head above water each month, you probably feel you don't have a debt problem.

Of course, only individuals know the finer detail of their own situations -- but I'd say that if the struggle to keep on top of your finances is a significant, and constant, effort, perhaps you're fighting a bigger battle than you realise.

In this article, I explained that a shocking number of adults are dangerously in the dark about their debts.

Here, I want to outline what I see as some of the warning signs that debts could be spiralling out of control -- and suggest some things that might help.

10 warning signs

 You aren't sure where your debts come from, or how much you owe.

If you're in debt but have no idea how you got there, it suggests you are routinely over-spending -- perhaps on small, everyday items. Likewise, not knowing how much debt you have implies you aren't in control of your finances.

 Your budget doesn't balance, or you haven't got one.

If you spend more each month than you earn, or can't be sure that your salary is covering your expenses, you could be storing up serious trouble for the future.

 You're only paying the monthly minimum repayments (MMRs) on your debts.

Repaying only the MMR on your debts will mean they take far longer, and cost you much more, to clear in full.

 Your monthly spending on credit outstrips the amount you're paying off your debts.

If you regularly have to pay for necessities such as food and petrol using credit, this could indicate a serious problem.

 You're robbing Peter to pay Paul.

If you sometimes find yourself using one form of debt to meet the repayments on another, you may find your financial situation getting worse -- particularly if you are using credit card cheques, cash advances or payday loans.

 It isn't unusual for you to be late paying bills, and you sometimes exceed your credit limits.

Failing to make necessary payments on time or over-spending on your credit card or overdraft will mean you incur extra fees and charges. This will drive you further into debt and could also damage your credit rating.

 You have no savings.

At The Fool, we've always believed it's sensible to build up a savings cushion of at least three months' pay in case of emergencies. If you can't see a way to set aside some money each month because your debts are too expensive, this is another warning sign that they could affect your financial future.

 Your total non-mortgage debt exceeds your annual income.

This is a sign your debts may be difficult for you to repay.

 You're frightened to talk about your situation.

If you're finding it difficult to be honest with your family and friends about your problems -- or worse, are fibbing to them about your spending -- it's possible you're in denial about your debts.

 You're constantly worried about money matters.

If you're having trouble sleeping, aren't eating or are finding your work and leisure time affected by money worries, it's a sign that the stress of your financial situation could affect your health. If this applies to you, please seek help before that can happen.

Things you can do

If you recognise yourself in any of the situations I've described above, no doubt this has worried you. Perhaps this article has prompted you to consider how seriously debt is affecting your life -- and how you could start to deal with this.

If it's time for you to tackle your debts, I'd strongly recommend that you seek help and advice from the friendly Fools on our Dealing With Debt discussion board. Here, you'll be able to post your individual Statement Of Affairs and get tips on the best way to handle your situation.

I'd also suggest sharing your problems with family and friends. This should provide a real sense of relief -- and you may find them an invaluable source of support as you start to bash away at your borrowing.

No two people are the same, so it's impossible for me to prescribe the perfect debt solution here. However, this article by Serena Cowdy, and Neil Faulkner's follow-up to it, propose some excellent common-sense steps you could take.

If your debts are dominating your life, I'd also suggest contacting a free, independent debt advisory service such as Citizens Advice, National Debtline or the Consumer Credit Counselling Service.

No matter how much -- or how little -- we owe, right now I think getting back into the black should be a priority for all of us. As Britain slides towards recession, times are likely to become harder for many people.

In my opinion, sorting out our individual balance sheets will give us the best chance of surviving those difficult days -- and eventually coming through them into a far brighter future.

More: The Best Ways To Get Out Of Debt | Seven Tips To Seriously Reduce Your Debts | Is Bankruptcy The End?

Enjoyed this? Show it some love

Twitter
General

Comments (42)

  • supasap
    Love rating 19
    supasap said

    I don't have debt now but did years ago and lived in denial for years until I started paying it off..... if the debtor is not a house owner why not declare bankruptcy and get the rest of society to pay for their debts,,,,, as I understand it it is far less drastic than this used to be..... less stigma and a real chance of recovery.... if you have a job I would be sure that people will trust you with a mortgage after a few years despite being a bankrupt.... but maybe we need to hear more those that have recently been down this route

    Report on 28 November 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • NK104
    Love rating 0
    NK104 said

    'why not declare bankruptcy and get the rest of society to pay for their debts'

    Says it all really.

    You may be sure, supasap, that others would trust former bankrupts with money matters, be assured that your belief is not universally shared

    Report on 28 November 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • supasap
    Love rating 19
    supasap said

    Maybe, just that I understand (but would like people with experience to contribute to the discussion) that bankruptcy is not as bad as it once was. If a former bankrupt had demonstrated that he / she can hold down a job for x years and save for a deposit why not provide a mortgage? I also detect a moral tone in your note, well surely it is the responsibility of the money lenders to get their credit checking processes correct.... they encouraged people to play the game of hire purchase, so when some people get into trouble, well the money lenders have themselves to blame also.... besides compared to me who is tight, allergic to shopping malls, careful and saves for the future, some of these "irresponsible" spenders have kept the retail sector going for years which benefits the whole economy so they deserve some slack when the money lenders stop playing the game....

    Report on 28 November 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • unhappyshopper
    Love rating 0
    unhappyshopper said

    'why not declare bankruptcy and get the rest of society to pay for their debts'

    Is it lonely up there on your pedestal?

    Report on 28 November 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Shuggster
    Love rating 0
    Shuggster said

    supasap is what is wrong with society today. I believe that the like of supasap have made the credit crunch worse than the banks made it. supasap and peers would borrow money from a bank which he/she/IT cannot afford and then go bankrupt making everyone pay back. The bank loses money due to supasap selfishness and lack of responsibility, making the banks trust nobody. I think it is time to go back to the good old days where bankrupts are as contagious therefore isolated as leapers!

    Report on 28 November 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • An0n0
    Love rating 0
    An0n0 said

    well surely it is the responsibility of the money lenders to get their credit checking processes correct

    There will always be risks in lending money and suitable lending controls must be used by any lender. The controls will differ between lenders but will be based on the price of the credit and the perceived risk to the lender averaged over the loan book.

    Ultimately, it is the responsibility of the borrower to ensure that they can repay any credit facility they take out - it is no good blaming others when things go wrong. A borrower has a legal and a moral duty to repay their debts. Many people these days seem to have forgotten this.

    Bankruptcy is not an easy option. Even after discharge the record is held for a further 6 years by the Credit Reference Agencies and a discharged bankrupt will find it very difficult to get any form of credit from a mainstream lender during this period.

    Report on 29 November 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • supasap
    Love rating 19
    supasap said

    "pedestal, selfishness, what's wrong with society" etc etc..... why all these personal comments and assumptions..... for the record I have always paid my debts and currently don't have any, what I was suggesting is that in terms of rational economic behaviour it seems to me that a person who owes say £30k or whatever on credit cards that were oversold when the victims were just shopping in a supermarket or collared as they were leaving the toilets in a service station, should just write it all off and then start again, after all it's what businesses with limited liability do, presumably this is more acceptable to you. Why would you want the worry and stress of these victims to linger? Also none of you have commented upon the contribution the spenders have made to the retail sector and the wider economy. What we also need to hear from is those who have been in this boat recently or who have made a fresh start, I have no doubt many of these have turned things round for the better since we abandoned the debtors prison mentality some of you still cherish.

    Report on 29 November 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • sickofall
    Love rating 0
    sickofall said

    Rightly put, supasap.

    Report on 30 November 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • shellsim23
    Love rating 0
    shellsim23 said

    Im sorry supasap, what if everyone took that attitude, racked up that amount of debt on who knows what? Where would the money come from to sort it out?
    Time and time again there are programmes on tv showing people who owe that amount of money, have a poorly paid job and still insist on spending stupid amounts of money on designer clothes, shoes and sushi. I personally would love to own half of the things that they do but I couldn't let myself get into the position of having to declare myself bankrupt.
    Perhaps a change in behaviour back to the times when people spent money on things which they needed and saved for things they wanted would be of benefit.
    Just for the record, I feel sorry for people who have got into a position of unmanageable debt due to no fault of their own. Its the people who think they can carry on spending and let other people deal with the consequences that I have no time for.

    Report on 30 November 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • ros17
    Love rating 0
    ros17 said

    'why not declare bankruptcy and get the rest of society to pay for their debts'

    Firstly, if it were so easy do you not think everyone would be doing it! You have to go to court to show you are unable, not just unwilling, to pay the debts, this costs around £500.

    My parents were declared bankrupt during the last recession, we lost our home, our car, moved away from friends, it's horrible. 10 years later they were still being refused £1000 credit cards even though both had been in their jobs for over 6 years and had no other debt.

    Secondly everyone seems to forget that yes these are huge multinational companies but they do employ people. These are the ones who suffer when debts are left unpaid. My husband works in Credit risk, recently two thirds of the workforce were made redundant as the business could no longer function due to spirallling missed payments. These poor people are now jobless and who know's maybe in spiralling debt through no fault of their own because some jobsworth decided they needn't pay their bills.

    Report on 30 November 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • pdcovers
    Love rating 1
    pdcovers said

    A good poster on DWD puts it in a nutshell:-
    1. Spend less, 2. Earn more and 3. Get rid of your useless possessions.
    For most (but not all) people it appears that number 1 is the major problem.
    If you cannot seliminate any debts by thee time you retire on a liveable pension then go bankrupt and prepare to exist on a low income without car, holidays etc. for the rest of your life.

    Report on 30 November 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • colin106
    Love rating 0
    colin106 said

    From supasap " I also detect a moral tone in your note, well it is the responsibility of the moneylenders..."
    It seems to me that not only does supasap feel it OK for others to pay his debts, and to pass responsibility for them onto the lenders! but that he lives in a world where there should be no right or wrong?
    What would life be like without morality? I suggest even more self centred than it is today.
    What a transformation there would be if we all tried to live by the maxim: Don't do to others what you wouldn't like them to do to you.

    Report on 30 November 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • supasap
    Love rating 19
    supasap said

    Colin106 suggest you read the posts again and discover that I have always paid my debts and don't have any now. As for morality this is a strange one as I see these people as victims rather than perpetrators, these are not fraudsters they are people who have been pressured into debt.... there was a time where I could not stop for a comfort break on the motorway without being bombarded by orange faced reps from the credit companies.....I resisted but the pressure was there. Secondly, on another moral point these victims really have been serving the greater good by spending and keeping the retail sector going (unlike me who adopts a needs based shopping policy until I have to give in gracefully and move from vinyl to CDs etc). If we all were like me and what pdcovers' post is suggesting ie spend less, then the capitalist system would be in permanent decline (not necessarily a bad thing if we went back to a sense of community and belonging and conservation and social based jobs and equitable distribution) and I am not sure you all want this decline. Thanks ros17 for a contribution from someone who has been through bankruptcy albeit it was some while ago and unfortunately your father had a house to lose, my model assumed big debt without any assets, where bankruptcy may be the sensible option.

    Report on 30 November 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • guykguard
    Love rating 0
    guykguard said

    Posters like supasap and colin106 feel strongly about this, so I'll try to avoid adding fat to a fire.
    It would be interesting to know what debtors and bankrupts spent the money on. OK, on mortgages secured on housing when the UK housing market was crazy. But what else? On 4x4s for the school run, by the suburban smart Alecs? On electronic gear that is enjoyed on two days: the day it's bought and the day it's sold or chucked in the dump? On cheap clothes and vulgar costume jewellery from the staggering number of junk shops selling such stuff on any high street or shopping mall? And: on booze, fags, lattes, and football or the 4:30 at Fontwell Park? I don't know the answer, but I'd be interested to read one. Can anyone help?
    It's not easy or obvious to see why a banker should be accused of recklessness for any of that. After all, (s)he is only lending our bank deposits: banks don't lend their _own_ money, for Heaven's sake. Why should the banks' depositors risk losing their money because some people choose, deliberately, to go mad with credit cards? Nor is it clear why the banks' shareholders should risk losing the savings they used to invest in shares to make a little money just because borrowers can't kick their pointless, irresponsible, compulsive extravagance. Sorry, I don't get it.
    I'll tell you what, though. Bankers are not as stupid as they look, and they won't get caught out a second time, so there will be three cruel consequences of the first time. We won't find credit easy to get or cheap. Businesses selling such junk won't get any credit, from just about anyone (ask Woollies that was). And the nationalised banks won't be lenient towards clients paying late or in difficulty, as the private banks usually were (ask anyone who is in arrears at Northern Crock). Nationalised businesses are a nightmare to deal with.
    Oh, and BTW, IMO we are entitled to spend our own hard-earned dosh on anything we like -- any damned thing -- as long as it doesn't harm anyone else. Someone else's dosh is quite another thing, though!

    Report on 30 November 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • miasmatic
    Love rating 0
    miasmatic said

    I feel sorry for people who are in debt and who have been responsible.
    However,I'm fuming at those who have got into debt because it's the "normal" thing.What rubbish !
    It's about time some self control came into the system.
    It's no laughing matter when someone loses their job because others have spent their way willy-nilly and finally go sobbing to rest of us that they cannot manage.
    What about all those people who have saved up for retirement ? All of these are at the mercy of the stupid uncontrollable spendthrifts.
    Go on.Borrow as much as you can all you incompetent people,because you think that's the "in thing" or "normal" way,and while you are about it bring the rest of the world to it's knees.
    As for spenders supporting the economy,yes within reason,but the economy will collapse with excess spending which is not supported with the means to pay back.

    Report on 30 November 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Oobee
    Love rating 0
    Oobee said

    I think everyone in debt is personally responsible. I don't see why anyone shouldn't be able to live within their means. The problem is there are too many selfish and arrogant people with pretentions that they think warrant spening on luxuries they can't afford. About time this finally slapped them in the face, it should have happened sooner for everyone's sake.

    Supasap, you are disallusioned and your suggestion a disgrace, people need to take responsibility for their actions. Yes they have contributed to the economy with borrowed money, but have had the benefit of whatever they blew it on whilst the prudent in their income bracket did without. Unfortunately those in the latter bracket are also paying the price with lost jobs etc.

    Report on 30 November 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • supasap
    Love rating 19
    supasap said

    guykguard, all those things that you list that may have been purchased by those now in debt is precisely what keeps our system going, if we stop spending on these items then the system will go into terminal decline as this is what our system is all about... it is called materialistic capitalism and it is all about supplying goods and services which generally don't meet a real need but as members of society we are all pressured into purchasing them.... and that includes credit.... personally I would rather our resources were directed to healthy lifestyles and fostering of unconditional respect for our fellow human beings through proper education but our system is much better at creating false needs like 4x4's and celebrities and the things you list so I am still puzzled why there is a lot of blame being attached to the victims who were just playing the game...

    Report on 30 November 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • lindleytvr
    Love rating 8
    lindleytvr said

    All I can say is Thank You to all those people who are now in their 50s, 60s and 70s for getting us into this mess. The have it now pay later idea came from your generation. You've had the benefit of all this and now us under 40s are left to pick up the pieces.
    Some of us live in areas of low incomes where council tax, water, home fuel costs etc have far outstripped our pay. We can't move to higher paid areas as we've been priced out of the market and can't travel to higher paid jobs as the transport costs are too high (and often no public transport - thanks Lincolnshire!)
    We only have a £35,000 mortgage and a £2,000 business loan yet we're struggling and we have our own business and a job each too. We've not had a foreign holiday in years, have secondhand CRT tv's and furniture and keep our food budget low as I cook from scratch and grow our own veg.
    But it has been tempting to borrow - yet we resisted.
    Globally,though I think we're fortunate - we could be in a war zone or in famine.
    But please remember that the younger people of today are victims of early generations folly.

    Report on 30 November 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • braindeadcat
    Love rating 0
    braindeadcat said

    Oobee - I take it from your comment "think everyone in debt is personally responsible. I don't see why anyone shouldn't be able to live within their means" that you are young and never been made redundant? I am offended by your arrogance but would still hope that you are never unfortunate enough to be where I am at the moment. As an articulate, well presented and well qualified person, in a well paid job, with a financial cushion of savings and no debt other than a mortgage I was made redundant. However, I am constantly told I am 'over qualified' for the jobs going and have only recently managed to get a minimum wage part-time job which pays under £400 a month. My mortgage alone is £650 per month but how do you sell a house in this climate and anyway, where would I ever be able to rent for so little? Meanwhile my credit cards are keeping me fed and putting petrol in my (small) car to get me to work while my wonderful friends do what they can to help without making me feel embarrassed or inadequate. It is truely love, not money, that makes the world go round.

    Report on 30 November 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Noodzy
    Love rating 0
    Noodzy said

    The government is to blame, not people striving for any available opportunity to better their lives in a legal way!

    Oobee - To blame people for considering all the opportunities available to them is anti-capitalist and anti-choice and I think the moral argument is flawed.

    About the debt, 30K at the point when someone is considering bankruptcy, which is a difficult option for anyone, would probably be made up of late charges/interest etc. It is not the case that they have splashed 30k on cars and designer bling as some seem to suggest.

    Report on 30 November 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Noodzy
    Love rating 0
    Noodzy said

    ‘About time this finally slapped them in the face, it should have happened sooner for everyone's sake.’ Oobee.

    If you slap 3 million people (est. unemployed alone) in the face you get a reaction, one that government is finding impossible to ignore.

    Report on 30 November 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Varstar
    Love rating 0
    Varstar said

    "Bankruptcy is not an easy option. Even after discharge the record is held for a further 6 years by the Credit Reference Agencies"

    Hmmm... some bank may not take it into consideration after six years, but it may be on there forever!
    I checked my credit history last year and was staggered to fine a late credit card payment from 15 years ago still on there...

    Report on 30 November 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • pjpunter7
    Love rating 0
    pjpunter7 said

    So many folk seem intent on expressing the very human emotion of blaming a scapegoat and finding a victim.
    Perhaps we all do it to some extent.

    The reality is that almost the whole kaboodle in capitalism is tarnished by debt - including the banks and most businesses.
    Even I, a long term enemy of the system, had failed to see just how dependent on debt the whole, silly game is!

    Governments borrowing money to bail-out debt-ridden banks, and then trying to encourage FURTHER borrowing ( ie DEBT) would make a martian laugh his tinballs off!
    Absolutely ridiculous system. Humans deserve better and HAVE the the ability to put things right.
    Tinkering with expedient, short-term get-outs - as suggested by the dude who wonders why bankruptcy isn't the chosen way to go - or, feeling sorry for vulnerable , weak-minded folk, who have never been taught right from wrong, and have been easy prey for the commercial, greedy world of advertising, won't put fundamental matters right.

    Time to remove the set-up that has proved itself to be rotten to the core! Give decent folk a chance; we can't do any worse than the rulers who have made such a mess, imo.

    Report on 30 November 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • supasap
    Love rating 19
    supasap said

    pjpunter7.... what economic / social system are you advocating..... what are the fundamentals of it... is it open to all or just those that are not "weak minded"..... your post is a bit confusing.... you seem to be blaming both the system and its member victims.... just who are the decent folk?

    Report on 30 November 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Varstar
    Love rating 0
    Varstar said

    "All I can say is Thank You to all those people who are now in their 50s, 60s and 70s for getting us into this mess."

    Err, what? So you're saying it's my 70 year old parents fault that we're in this mess? I think not, apart from the odd bank loan for a car and the mortgage, they've never owed money in their lives...
    Now some of my friends (mostly thirty-somethings), that's the problem - bank loans, car loans, credit cards, remortgages coming out of their ears...

    Report on 30 November 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • janesk
    Love rating 0
    janesk said

    My Dad always said "Never a borrower or lender be, then you'll always be happy." Followed his philosophy most of my life and I'm quite content.
    Have a few minor debts but nothing I couldn't pay off if necessary. What happened globally is folk got greedy, wanting bigger houses, higher wages, less work, more fun. All of which costs one way or another. Why do couples without kids want 5-6 bedroomed houses ? Three cars (In case one breaks down ?) Designer clothes because everybody has them ? A hundred years ago if you had a 5-6 bedroomed house, it was either a boarding house or a brothel (Mind you with todays morals !!!) I know prices have gone up but most of this is to reflect on todays wages, just look at the discounts being thrown around now. Shows you how much profit was being made before eh???
    So dont borrow what you cant afford to pay back, and the country will survive, carry on in the old way and we will be bankrupt & no other country is going to bail us out, nobody else will pay our debts !!!!

    Report on 30 November 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • supasap
    Love rating 19
    supasap said

    never a lender or borrower be..... is an idealistic standpoint..... the reality is lending and borrowing have fuelled capitalist economic growth for ages and are you suggesting that we should all start saving up to purchase our houses outright

    Report on 30 November 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Oldeccles
    Love rating 0
    Oldeccles said

    Trouble can hit in more than one way.

    I think both sides are right. There have been some very predatory practices, cold-bloodedly and deliberately drawing people into more and more spending, and thus more and more debt. How many people have bought a fridge, and been sold a very expensive, and probably worthless, extended warranty at the same time? How many times have you gone into your bank to pay in a cheque, to be faced with a smiling salesperson who says something like "We thought you might like the opportunity to have a personal financial review"? It is of course nothing of the kind. They are not trying to help you tidy up all your money worries, they are poking around trying to see where they might be able to hustle an insurance deal, or sell you shares in a unit trust, or extend your credit limit. They have monthly targets, they work largely on commission. They simply want to get the money out of your pocket - not in an outrageous way, because you do end up with more than a pair of designer shoes. But not much more. If you go that way, your bank statement won't show a mad crazy blow-out, it will have any number of small but killing direct debits you hardly remember signing up for. You might have thought you were being sensible, but you would end up with warranties you didn't need, insurance that was both dodgy and overpriced, shares that were very poor value, a tempting credit limit. At the absolute worst, a crazy mortgage/second mortgage/loan which will wipe you out if anything goes wrong.

    It was, to my mind, not one side nor the other. I don't think that all the sellers were vultures, and I don't think all the buyers were fools getting fake tans. It was just a bad way of doing things, and if it is over, I am glad it is over.

    So I agree about the folly of

    Report on 30 November 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • minimumwager
    Love rating 0
    minimumwager said

    Well said Oldeccles, I couldn't agree more. I was speaking to an ex-bank manager of Abby, and he said as soon as they had shareholders (I think, he said!) that they were immediately given a set of targets to achieve, and every customer was looked upon as an opportunity to coerce them into purchasing more of the banks products. I'm not singling out one bank, they are all at it!! And Dear oobee saying we should all live within our means. I trust he doesn't earn minimum wage. I pay nursery fees, and try work to be a productive member of society. On the days my son goes to nursery, I'm working the first four hours for free, as thats how many hours I have to work to pay for nursery. And as for luxaries,I have not been abroard since I was 15 years old, have never been away in England for a holiday (apart from an annual weekend in St. Annes), and my TV was £15 from a second hand shop. HD it ain't!! So, Oobee, not everyone who is close to the poverty line is there because of reckless spending. I even cut my own hair! Which for a female who isn't too good with the old scissors, the results can be a little wonky! But I've learned not to care too much!! I'm not saying there haven't been lots of examples of idiotic spending. But every case is different, and should be judged on its own merits.

    Report on 30 November 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Oobee
    Love rating 0
    Oobee said

    I'm not here to argue but have given my opinion in the context of the thread from supasap's ridiculous suggestion that debtors without a house pass the debt onto society in general through bankruptcy.

    As far as i'm concerned every adult is responsible for living within their means and any debt that they chose to take. With the basic social support available there is no reason for anyone to be without basic food, clothing, accommodation, heat and healthcare. The debt comes from the extra clothes, booze, fags, phones, cars, holidays, better houses etc etc.

    Specific responses:

    Braindeadcat: my condolences on your predicuement. I am in my late 30s and have been made redundant in the early 90s. My job is currently at risk. Whether I am arrogant is your opinion, I hope not.

    Noodzy: I'm not blaming people for taking debt, I'm saying it's their responsility and I think it has gone way too far. The wake up call should have been sooner. Incidentally I have a large mortgage and have chosen not to pay for over-priced protection - my responsibility. If I lose my job I will do what I can to cover repayments, if I can't then I'll sell and lose some profit, possibly even at a loss to release equity and pay the debt. Buying property is a gamble and I have my eyes open.

    Minimumwager: I empathise and good on you. I don't see why you think my posting was detrimental to you. If supasap's suggestion was taken you would probably find your burden greater in taxes or lower tax breaks as would be the case for anyone who actually works for this society.

    Finally, I do agree with much of the sentiment. I don't think a globally economy based upon high growth and consumption makes sense. But I also believe it should be fair and everyone should be responsible for their actions.

    Report on 30 November 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Noodzy
    Love rating 0
    Noodzy said

    Oobee, I appreciate the reply.

    I’ll list why I disagree:

    1. The labour government’s policy has been to make us stakeholders in society and it has done this through property. It did not reverse right to buy but has extended it as well as introduced more shared equity schemes, rather than housing being an investment as you say (and I agree) the government has sought to present it as a way to make us all middle class, to be without property is to be without a stake in societies gains and the government is still promoting home ownership as ‘win-win’, this has/will backfire spectacularly. The government made a mistake depleting social housing and not presenting renting as a good option with legal protection. Unlike many of our continental European neighbours who have no rental stigma!
    2. ‘Living within your means’ is an interesting concept one that is fraught with difficulties, firstly, I believe there is nothing wrong with a credit facility BUT companies have exploited consumers with things like overpriced PPI! I was offered a loan some time back and was refused a quote without PPI, after fighting I got my rate reduced from 12% to 6.9% which at 21years old at the time was a fantastic rate, but had I not known my rights I would have been exploited by these companies. Having gone to university I have never ‘lived within my means’ and I would suggest I’m better off for it! Credit facilities are a necessary and useful part of society.
    3. Companies borrow money take risks; some succeed some go bankrupt that’s the nature of capitalism. You cannot be suggesting we don’t take risks and borrow money, I agree that borrowing for Uni is better than borrowing for a holiday, but nevertheless these facilities should be available. Personal losses are always eclipsed by corporate bankruptcies yet you seem to place all of the blame on individuals, as though we’re suffering because of a few thousand pounds per person written off. Yet the governments out there borrowing Billions with no guarantees we’ll get a return.

    As a final note, if you want people to be able to live within their means which would be a nice thing, then you should probably be in favour of a decent living wage, free university education and training for all those that want it.

    I don’t blame anybody for borrowing and think if the facilities are available get the best loans and make the best of them, invest in education and skills first as you get the best return as no-one can re-posses a degree or qualification and if you can drive for example you can do bus/taxi etc make an income! If all fails and you go bankrupt that’s what the facilities for to give people another chance not condemn them to a life of misery, its harsh they learn from mistakes and move on. All this moralising about debt is complete hypocrisy; this is capitalism get over it!

    Report on 30 November 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Oobee
    Love rating 0
    Oobee said

    Noodzy, I'm note sure you are in disagreement as I have no issue with the points that you make and they are not mutually exclusive to what I have said. Take time to think some more.

    There has to be personal responsibility for ones own debt decisions and risks when they hit. Sure there are exceptional circumstances and bankruptcy has it's place as a last resort, but not as a general facility to transfer responsibility when it catches up with you as suggested at the top of the thread, for obvious reasons.

    Of course debt has it's place and has it's risk like everything in life, afterall it's just advancement of your anticipated future means at a price and risk against how quickly you can catch it up!

    "... this is capitalism get over it" lol

    Report on 01 December 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Noodzy
    Love rating 0
    Noodzy said

    Oobee, I’m not picking on you completely, although I remember reading your posts and a few things compelled me to comment. In a Foolishly respectful way.

    ‘I don't see why anyone shouldn't be able to live within their means’ (Oobee)

    …Well, I can and I think you agree that living beyond your means is a good way to develop future potential albeit in business or personal spending. As you say ‘after all it's just advancement of your anticipated future means at a price and risk against how quickly you can catch it up!’ (Oobee)

    ‘The problem is there are too many selfish and arrogant people with pretentions that they think warrant spending on luxuries they can't afford’ (Oobee)

    …Again I disagree, why not buy luxuries if I can get credit, I can afford it as someone has judged me credit worthy!!! People know the consequences and bankruptcy as the Fool pointed out is no easy option! Don’t begrudge people life’s luxuries and suppose striving for them denotes ‘selfish arrogance.’

    N.B. I think minimumwager should borrow some money for a holiday, a haircut, and a HD TV she’d be helping the economy! With a good 0% finance over 5years it’s cheaper to pay on HP. I just purchased a wonderful 2.5k leather sofa; it’s almost cheaper to pay monthly payments provided no deflation hits the economy and provided I keep up with monthly payments… I’m doing my bit for Britain! Let’s hope I don’t loose my job! Lol.

    Report on 01 December 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • supasap
    Love rating 19
    supasap said

    well debated Noodzy, I have never understood the morality of debt and risk, those who have tried (and sometimes had failures and write offs on the way) and succeeded are paraded on dragons den as modern role models and those who have played the risk game personally (mortgages, education fees or luxuries) and got into trouble are stigmatised as immorally living beyond their means..... at the beginning of the thread I was merely suggesting a level playing field, if you are in debt by say £30k to credit cards and have no assets and working night shift in a call centre for £11k pa then why not start afresh through bankruptcy

    Report on 01 December 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • minimumwager
    Love rating 0
    minimumwager said

    Thanks Oobee and Noodzy, lolx

    Report on 01 December 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • TheImp
    Love rating 0
    TheImp said

    Moralising about debt and pointing the finger is not going to help anyone. As a financial inclusion worker I see lots of people with debt and very few have ended up there due to reckless spending. They all want to sort their debts out and repay them, but they're going to need time and breathing space. Lenders have got the jitters but piling on further charges or upping interest rates and then coming the heavy with people is pushing many over the edge. This could be the reason why so many folks with debts just give up opening their post or trying to make offers. Future lending does need to be tightened up but not at the expense of people struggling today.

    Report on 01 December 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • heskybabes
    Love rating 0
    heskybabes said

    Would have been great to see some posts from "fools" who have had financial problems and how they went about sorting themselves out. Have a great evening everyone.

    Report on 01 December 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Stephen79
    Love rating 0
    Stephen79 said

    "Your total non-mortgage debt exceeds your annual income"

    You should be worried way (way, way) before you get to this level!

    Report on 01 December 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • JCofRamsgate
    Love rating 3
    JCofRamsgate said

    My only asset is my house and I put it on the market 18 months ago to downsize and in order to pay off my credit cards when I was still up to date with payments, and it was actually looking like a sensible option. Continued for a year on minimum repayments, house price dropped by 40%. Could no longer continue repayments, so got CAB to help me work out repayment budget and contacted card issuers - who have remained relentlessly intransigent, continuing to levy interest and late payment fees despite the fact that I maintained the payments I offered - just as if I had never bothered to contact them at all. House price has been dropped further, fuel costs have doubled, without a friend who feeds me I don't know how I would manage. The first court papers arrived last week, so I will now have a CCJ on my record, and the proportion of debt:return-on-house is continually increasing and taking me right out of the purchase arena, so am looking at spending the remaining 30 years of my life on benefits, all because I tried to sort myself out at the wrong time! And I coped as a single parent without getting into trouble. Oh bother.

    Report on 02 December 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • suewhistle
    Love rating 3
    suewhistle said

    I don't have debt (or a TV for that matter!), but I'm one of the lucky ones from an earlier generation who had higher education without ending up in debt, bought a house when it was 3/4 times my annual income (not 6 times or more). On the other hand I didn't have decent sofa until I'd owned the house about 15 years, didn't have a car until I was 28, worked as a student and didn't do the round the world gap year etc. and most importantly, I've never had a drastic change in my life like enforced redundancy or single parenthood. (I was made redundant but by that stage I asked for it!)

    I think what I'm trying to reach for is balance. I was lucky, but I was also cautious. Sympathy is often due and there are others who have been stupid or tempted by the banks. Perhaps a little less judging of others might be more helpful. Nobody _likes_ being in the deep poo.

    Report on 02 December 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • womanofmeans
    Love rating 0
    womanofmeans said

    It won't be long before ever more people will have serious debt problems, with the growing unemployment figures. If you are unfortunate enough ever to go onto Income Support, you will firstly have to wait 5 weeks (or more like 10) and then be expected to exist on £60.50 a week, even with housing benefit and council tax benefit (again which should be paid after 5 weeks but actually takes up to or more than 2 months) it is impossible to keep body and soul together on Income Support.

    Supposing that no one offers any work, you are then in a mess, waiting for your housing benefit, and Council Tax Benefit, getting ever deeper into debt, with insufficient funds to pay your utilities, soon the bailiffs will be at your door and if you are really unlucky the Council will be threatening a NOSP within a very short time, your utility providers will threaten disconnection and trust me its downhill all the way.

    Don't judge the debt ridden, they've maybe just fallen on hard times.

    Report on 05 December 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • loveWheel
    Love rating 21
    loveWheel said

    great article

    Report on 09 March 2011  |  Love thisLove  0 loves

Post a comment

Sign in or register to post a reply.

Our top deals

Credit card
company
Balance transfers rate and period Representative
APR
Apply
now

Barclaycard 26Mth Platinum Visa

0% for 26 months (3.5% fee) Representative 18.9% APR (variable) Apply
Representative example: assumed borrowing of £1,200, representative 18.9% APR (variable). Purchase rate 18.9% PA (variable)

Barclaycard 25Mth Platinum Visa

0% for 25 months (2.4% fee) Representative 18.9% APR (variable) Apply
Representative example: assumed borrowing of £1,200, representative 18.9% APR (variable). Purchase rate 18.9% PA (variable). BT fee is reduced from 3.5% to 2.4% (T&Cs apply)

Halifax BT 25 Month MasterCard

0% for 25 months (2.5% fee) Representative 18.9% APR (variable) Apply
Representative example: assumed borrowing of £1,200, representative 18.9% APR (variable). Purchase rate 19.0% PA (variable).
W3C  Thank you for using CGWEBLIV4