Who Is To Blame For Debt Crisis?

Harvey Jones
by Lovemoney Staff Harvey Jones on 20 August 2008  |  Comments 110 comments

Harvey Jones gives a personal view on who is to blame for the UK's debt crisis.

With Britons owing a staggering £1.4 trillion, the nation is perilously hooked on debt.

This was bad enough while credit was cheap and house prices were rising, now it is turning into a disaster.

So who do we blame for our predicament? Well, we can start with the banks, for pushing unsolicited credit card and personal loan applications down the throats of people already choking on debt, just like they did in the previous boom.

Debt is a four letter word.

We should also aim a kick at the FSA for failing to restrain the lending binge, and Gordon Brown for switching the Bank of England's inflation target from the retail price index (RPI), which includes house prices, to the consumer prices index (CPI), which doesn't. I believe that the resulting lower inflation figure encouraged the Monetary Policy Committee to trim interest rates, fuelling the cheap debt binge.

But how much of the blame should debtors shoulder? Two recent disputes settled by the Financial Ombudsman Service made me wonder.

Would you credit it?

The first was a 21-year old computer studies student (identified only as Mr D) who decided it would be great fun to use his new credit card to gamble online, until he maxed out his £1,000 credit limit.

Did he hang his head in embarrassment and knuckle down to repay the cash? No. He blamed his card issuer, saying it had tempted him into vice with its generous credit limit. Outrageously, he demanded it pay his gambling debts for him.

You will be glad to hear the Ombudsman gave Mr D short shrift, stating that his card issuer had no duty to monitor what he spent the money on. It advised him to accept his issuer's offer of a rate concession to help him repay the money (which was more than he deserved if you ask me).

Retail therapist.

Most of you will probably agree with that ruling, but what about this one? "Miss E", a trainee beauty therapist in her early 20s, borrowed £6,650 from her bank in September 2005. In the next six months she applied for two further loans of £8,500 and £10,500, and used the cash to consolidate the previous loan.

By May 2006 she couldn't manage her repayments and yes, she also blamed her bank, saying it was responsible because it hadn't considered her ability to repay these sums.

To my surprise, the Ombudsman agreed. It said the bank should have seen from her current account that she was using her overdraft to repay the loan. The bank meekly agreed to write off all the money it had lent over the original amount -- saving Miss E £4,000. She even retained her good credit history.

National debt.

I can't summon up sympathy for the bank, which had incidentally taken every opportunity to flog Miss E over-priced payment protection insurance (PPI), but didn't she also have a responsibility to consider whether she could repay? Apparently not. It was all the fault of that wicked lender.

This refusal to accept responsibility is widespread. I recently spoke to a debt advice specialist who said young people have grown up with cheap credit and have few qualms about getting into debt. They cheerfully borrow thousands of pounds and see no stigma in declaring themselves bankrupt if it all gets too much.

And who suffers?

Thankfully, we've come a long way since the days of debtors' prisons, but have we gone too far in the other direction?

Since 2004, you can now be discharged from bankruptcy within 12 months rather than three years. And the forthcoming Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act has alarmed debt enforcement agencies (bailiffs to you and me), because they fear it offers debtors even more ways of evading their responsibilities.

I don't have much sympathy for bailiffs, and I understand the Government is trying to help debtors rebuild their lives, but could this gentler attitude inadvertently backfire by sucking more people into debt, thinking there is an easy way out?

Debt may be losing its stigma, but somebody still has to pay. And it won't be the banks, because they will pass on the cost in the form of more expensive credit, it will be you and me.

Banks, politicians, regulators and struggling debtors all share the guilt for the current mess, but responsible borrowers who diligently repay their borrowings will ultimately end up footing the bill for everybody else.

> Do you agree with Harvey? Or do you think he's too hard on borrowers who are having repayment problems? Let us know with a comment at the bottom of this article.

> If you have a debt problem, kind Fools on our Dealing with Debt discussion board may be able to help you.

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Comments (110)

  • lawrencecarey
    Love rating 0
    lawrencecarey said

    The disastrous financial situation we now face is the result of reckless lending by banks and other financial institutions.

    It has been fuelled by a complete lack of control from government over money supply.

    This government has created a culture of debt with students leaving full time education overwhelmed with a burden of debt.
    Most of them will never fully recover from this position.

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  • ThatLindseyGuy
    Love rating 114
    ThatLindseyGuy said

    I find myself in the unusual position of defending the current prime minister - I'm not entirely sure Gordon can take all the blame for the switch to CPI.

    This was part of an EU-wide initiative to harmonise inflation measures across all member states to facilitate comparability of economic statistics.

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  • Coypu
    Love rating 0
    Coypu said

    I generally agree with this article, but I feel you are too diplomatic. Whilst I have no sympthy for the banks if thier customers default on loans the bank couldn't be bothered to check, I cannot see that they can be blamed for tempting their customers into debt lending money - it's what they do. It's like blaming a chip shop because they sell food to their customers and so tempt them to overeat.

    If people borrow money from a bank, then they are responsible for paying it back, it's that simple unless there was something very underhand and misleading going on.

    Neither banks nor the FSA nor the governement have any business intervening when people are using their free will.

    However there is one group of borrowers who I think are a little different - students. HMG comes very close indeed to forcing them into debt. The stark choice for many is 'no debt, no degree' that cannot be good.

    I don't like the moralising and emotional language sometimes used 'Culture of debt', 'debt mountain', 'debt disaster', etc It doesn't add anything to the conversation. I don't think debt is bad, or good, it's just a choice adults can make and then take responsibility for.

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  • indyair
    Love rating 0
    indyair said

    Who is to blame?.

    Easy. The rubbish, so called prudence of Brown and Blair on fiscal policy. Over spend in good time's and have nothing left in the bad time's. A labour trait!. ( sell gold at it's lowest price in 5 decades, that will do!). But let's make money easy for everybody ( who can't really afford to pay it back ).

    And of course the financial institutions jumped on this band wagon and took ever increasing risk's to borrow money on the market's, in order to sell to the consumer, who really could'nt afford it?.

    And the rest is history.

    Who is to blame?

    WE ARE!!!, for not taking responsibility in our spending habit's, and listening to the bulls$%*& gutter press that pervades our everyday, and the never ending mind numbing spin of the politician's.

    Take the time, do your own research into financial criteria, and take responsibilty for your financial decisions.

    After all, no one else will?.

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  • DIYfixer
    Love rating 0
    DIYfixer said

    What a bunch of spineless people this nation has become, just like the Yanks, this growing refusal to accept responsibility for ones own action is sickening. It’s the Government, it’s the banks, it’s my parents and it’s societies fault that every one wants every thing now. When you have surrounded yourself with all your must have right now consumer junk, sue the shops for selling the consumer stuff which tempted us in to debt as well as the banks for giving the money. Let’s also have a go at the advertisers who are another set of satins minions for tempting us to spend, surly a good lawyer will win that one, now where can I borrow some money to pay the lawyer? Grow up stop blaming every one, no one forced you to borrow, when a loan is due to be paid back, shut up and pay up, finding it tough, sell some of your consumer junk and find out it’s real worth.

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  • msknight
    Love rating 31
    msknight said

    I agree fully with the article. The FI's should not loan money to people who have not got the ability to repay a loan; that is the fundamental principle on which Miss E won her case, which wasn't the case for Mr D; or was it, but he didn't argue it?

    When I was a student, I ramped up all sorts of debt and it did nothing to help my attitude ... until I hit the brick wall ... THEN I actually learned my lesson about money. Where is the line? Personally, I say put the decision back in the hands of the bank manager, rather than a piece of software.

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  • petitemisschief
    Love rating 22
    petitemisschief said

    It seems to be the norm now that any problem you bring on yourself has to be blamed on someone else. Where is personal accountability? I was always brought up to sort out my own problems not expect someone else to do it for me. If people take out loans they should make sure they have the ability to repay them, even if they lose their job. That means borrowing at a reasonable level if you have to borrow. I do think however that banks should be more careful about who they lend to and they should factor in basic insurance into the cost of the loan without trying to flog expensive ppi. On of the fundamental things we should be teaching our children is the knowledge of how to budget properly and that saving up for something is an achievement to be proud of rather than the 'I must have everything now!' culture that seems to have developed

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  • lurcher5
    Love rating 0
    lurcher5 said

    Years ago, the 60's, we had difficulty in raising cash, therefor we had more respect fot it. Today, that respect has gone out of the window and it's a free for all. Dog eat dog is the way so good luck to anyone who can get away with a counter claim or whatever.

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  • msknight
    Love rating 31
    msknight said

    Just an extra - after moving house I needed a small loan. The people at my bank said I had more chance of getting the loan if I asked for a larger amount of money. Fortunately, I asked for only a little, and the software granted it to me (at a preferential rate that beat the market, because they know that I'm a good little girl! You can't always go by the rates being advertised on paper when it comes to shopping around financially.)

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  • zyliminy
    Love rating 0
    zyliminy said

    it appears to be a mixture of all for the debt crisis,if only everyone had the commonsense to do the same as i have always done and my parents before me plus my wife of 50years,we only spend our own money and therefore have no debts of any kind,use a debit card and you cannot go wrong,i am 71yrs old and never had any debts nor ever will have.

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  • msknight
    Love rating 31
    msknight said

    Apologies - I'll get the whole story right after I've had my first coffee. The bank said that I had a bigger chance of getting the loan if I asked for a larger amount AND if it refused me, then that would bar me from making another application for ... I've forgotten the number of weeks. There was no way of finding out in advance what my actual standing was in order for me to obtain the lowest loan that would cover my needs but not cost me a small fortune. Now if THAT isn't encouraging people to take out larger loans which earn more money for the bank and have no respect for the customers ability to repay, then I don't know what is.

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  • pennyinvestment
    Love rating 0
    pennyinvestment said

    Well I must say DIY was right. The young especially get duped or even forced into 'borrowing'. Nurses in training, students in college ALL get used this way. The earnest young people trying to get a qualification against all odds.

    I think we should start by educating the young in school and getting them to pass an exam on money management and financial awareness.

    Also it comes naturally to some and with experience to others to finally reallise that car booting might be a better option to going shopping for new stuff on a weekend. One can decorate one's home, clothe oneself, even feed the family from a car-boot and it is fun in the doings.

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  • bigwidewindow
    Love rating 0
    bigwidewindow said

    Well...i find myself in two minds about this mess. On the one hand i, like most of us, have had the likes of VIRGIN & CAPITAL ONE send through those infuriating CREDIT CARD CHEQUE BOOKS that have to be shredded every time they turn up(by the way FOOLERS I haven't seen you moan about this one) So I can see validity in the overselling of credit argument. However something borrowed must be paid back & its shameful when it isn't. I say this having a failed sole tradership & being made bankrupt at the tender age of 27. And having had to wait the best part of 7 years to get even a normal current account. Its worth noting that even back then (1997)becoming a discharged bankrupt in the eyes of the state was easy....banks and lenders have a much longer memory.

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  • asmac45ct
    Love rating 0
    asmac45ct said

    Greed and the inability to delay gratification.... it helps us humans to cope with life. Sad but true!!

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  • dgreen101
    Love rating 0
    dgreen101 said

    It seems to be impossible for people to save for purchases, (although this isn't always possible for larger purchases such as cars). Rising house values have buoyed consumer confidence & encouraged homeowners to remortgage to obtain finance & advertisers tempt people to buy things now "Why wait" "You're worth it" etc Most people I know who are in debt use the philosophy that they might as well enjoy life now as they might get run over by a bus tomorrow. Usually they don't so the aftermath of their profligate lifestyle comes back to bite them in the bum!

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  • lizzie1410
    Love rating 2
    lizzie1410 said

    I think that there are a combination of factors. Whilst I totally believe that all adults should be responsible for their own actions, including borrowing and repaying money, I think we have to acknowledge that some are better equipped for this than others.
    If you contribute to this website I would suggest that you are one of the better equipped.
    When I was a student (20 years ago) I regularly accumulated maximum overdrafts (no student loans in those days thank goodness) but spent my summer, easter and christmas holidays paying them off. I then went off travelling and overused a credit card until it was confiscated. I then spent about 2 years paying that off. Not until I was about 32 did I become debt free but I never blamed anyone but myself.
    However, I have recently been helping a young (21) relative who left school young, had a child and took out a loan to pay of the debts of the father who then left her. On single parent benefits (annual income £6,500) after a while I could see that there was no hope of her paying of the loan and the various outstanding utility bills which he had also left her with. The bank which sold her the loan also sold her PPI, which she could not afford so they kindly lent her an additional £1,000 (!) for the premium on a £4,000 loan. I battled with the bank and had that waived and battled with utilities and government departments to get her a break but in the end we declared bankruptcy. Without my help, she would have had little idea how to manage the mess she was in as she simply did not have my knowledge, experience or education. Dealing with banks and government departments is a bureaucratic nightmare and even well educated people struggle. What hope do very young have when faced with a man in a suit giving them "advice" about loans and PPI? They assume that the advice is for the best. Things have to be looked at on a case by case basis. Many people do cynically take loans and credit, with no intention of repaying but some are genuinely take in by banks who do "sell" loans - they don't just passively sit there agreeing to lend when someone approaches them.

    It doesn't seem to make sense to me to lend money to someone who does not appear, realistically, to be able to repay it but banks do it all the time so obviously it works for them. Maybe it works for them with aggressive enforcement until they overtilt the balance of the economy and they have to start writing off more than they reckoned on?

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  • Cloudwatcher47
    Love rating 0
    Cloudwatcher47 said

    What's happened to personal responsibility? "Actions have results" - a basic fact of life. I've worked as an administrator in a school for many years and have found that the culture of "It's not my fault" or "I didn't do it" (when caught redhanded) is rife among pupils and starts at a frighteningly early age. This is the attitude which is applied all through life by those very people who fail to take responsibility for managing their own debts. If you borrow, you must pay back - FACT - and there's no point in wingeing (morally or otherwise)that it's the bank's fault for lending it in the first place.

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  • capetownpeter
    Love rating 0
    capetownpeter said

    The field and its fences is everything to the sheep
    Governments and banking did what they could to make it easier for people to borrow - lowering interest rates and extending credit terms - so that people could borrow more to keep fueling growth in the economy. The context is far more important than the individuals - the field and its fences is everything to the sheep.
    The current problems are just that no-one will lend to anyone because they are scared s******s they won't get it back - big banks being as bad as little you and me at repaying debt.
    Now we will take two or more steps back and then start again.

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  • DIODES
    Love rating 0
    DIODES said

    Here we are talking about debt seen the advert running alongside this!!

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  • globalmeltdown
    Love rating 0
    globalmeltdown said

    I very much like what DIYfixer (see above)has said about personal debt. If being a consumer monkey gets you into debt, stop spending your money. Discipline is a much maligned word it seems these days, but apply some backbone or discipline, take responsibility and save your money whilst at the same time, questioning yourself as to whether you really need that next piece of consumer junk.

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  • ajfish
    Love rating 3
    ajfish said

    DIYFixer has it just right along with Petitemisschief. Cloudwatcher hit the nail on the head when mentionioning about the attitude of kids in schools. What are their parents telling them. "Yes you can have the best trainers, we'll get the money". My parents never borrowed anything apart for the money for their house. If they couldn't afford it we didn't get. Simple. A static caravan holiday in Lowestoft was our summer holiday. When they bought their first brand new car in 1972 it cost £1000 (about one third of the value of the house they were living in). They saved every penny before buying it and we went without as a consequence. I thank them for that lesson. I have never borrowed beyond my means. People really need to start taking responsibility for their actions and stop putting their efforts in finding someone or something else to blame. We really do live in a blame society.
    And Lizzie1410, when you say "some are better equipped for this than others" when referring to people borrowing money, then surely that's what all this is about and the point made by DIY, if you are not equipped then you don't borrow. It really is that simple.

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  • gg365
    Love rating 0
    gg365 said

    Like all business's banks factor in risk when they assess a loan application, hence the variation in interest rates that are charged. If, having assessed this risk, they then make a loan ofer which is accepted, it is in full knowledge of the liklihood (or not) of repayment. If the person who has accepted the loan experiences changed circumstances, e.g. divorce, unemployment, severe illness etc then the bank has already factored these potential effects into its charges on the loan and in these circumstances needs to reach a compromise with the debtor which may include writting off the loan, part of the loan or interest etc. Banks will not do this until their hand is forced, meaning that an individual who tries their best faces stress, accumulating interest etc at a time when they are least equipped to deal with it. Its real life in a society we have created and berating individuls who find themselves in this situation is wrong when the banks have the knowledge, power and ability to assess a situation either statistically or in actuality far better than an individual who has been mesmerised by hype into 'needing' the latest high tech gizmo.

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  • gartons
    Love rating 0
    gartons said

    As most of the comments on this article say or imply, what happened to financial discipline?
    Why should a financial institution or an individual who has got into difficulty through their own greed, stupidity or financial incompetence be bailed out?

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  • nickeb
    Love rating 0
    nickeb said

    I am 63 and have three children at University (actually the eldest just graduated). All three of them work during the vacations to minimise their borrowings but have had to borrow the maximum they could just to survive despite handouts from me some of which I have also had to borrow.

    My contention is that we have ALL been lied to. Remember Education, Education, Education. Nobody suggested that financing would be done any differently to the grants which so many in government themselves received.

    The rationale for grants was that higher qualified people benefit society as a whole. Loans are only justified if the primary beneficiary is the student. Actually the student loses several years paid employment or unemployment benefit, has to work hard and long to qualify and is rewarded by debt.

    I have no doubt that the government and treasury knew they were being dishonest bringing in large loans otherwise they would have insisted that these loans were underwritten by parents.

    My advice to graduates is to go overseas, find a good job and stay away until you can repay your debt out of loose change. I went to New Zealand for 10 years after I graduated in 1974 and found more challenges and better career progress.

    There are plenty of overseas graduates from Europe and elsewhere who will fill the gaps here and though I have never seen it quantified, immigrants are of huge benefit to our economy.

    As for who pays the debt in the meantime i.e. all of us, yes I do think that is fair, since if there had been grants this is what we would have had to do in the first place.

    NickB

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  • timsretreat
    Love rating 0
    timsretreat said

    I'm 42 years of age and come from a working class background, banks and financial institutions have been falling over themselves to give the likes of you and me money that we can't afford to pay back for years. I must have 12 different credit cards and at one point in my life I owed £75k on them. At the time my yearly income was £30k, i had a mortgage of £128k on a house worth £135k. I have always paid my debt on time whatever my situation, as i have worked hard to make sure my wages met my expenditure. My point is how can anyone justify lending these amounts of money out, these institutions allowed me to get myself into this predicament whether i could really afford them or not. I could so easily have become another case at the courts but chose to get myself out of the trouble i had created. I now have an excellent credit score and am very proud of that fact but know it could have been so very very different. Simply we are all to blame for this situation.

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  • mgy1912
    Love rating 0
    mgy1912 said

    When buying a car a few years ago, my wife and I bit the bullet and borrowed £7500 from the bank. We were constantly offered "top-up" loans for up to £12500 which we rejected out of hand. Is it any wonder we have a generation of people who believe in free money? (We received a small windfall last year and immediately used it to pay off the loan, and were very relieved to do so.)

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  • Carlosdjackal
    Love rating 0
    Carlosdjackal said

    At last. When first reading this article I thought our nation was doomed and I was the only one thinking what a bunch of soft spineless whingers we have become. But after reading many of the comments here my faith in our society is beginning to return. Of coarse its the people who borrow who are at fault. If people are thick enough to be duped, swindled, forced, cajoled, intimidated or whatever to borrow money from their bank and get into trouble when thing go tits up, then tough!

    I understand that young mothers students nurses doctors etc etc cant pay back loans they ve taken out.....so dont both nothing will happen to you don't, worry about it.

    We really just need to teach our kids responsibility for their own actions that would probably sort out a good many problems our country has seen rise recently including this one ;-)

    Oh BTW I hate banks as much as the next person. But you might as well blame the sea for falling off your surf board.

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  • Foz72
    Love rating 0
    Foz72 said

    My opinion is the underlying problem, regardless of borrowing, is the fact (the borrower) is responsible to pay the debt back - and thats where the system fails. Theres no way once the money has left the hands of the bank or whoever, that they can control how that money then comes back to them. I think the majority of people, cant seem to handle debt management, they lack the skills to effectively manage their budgets. So we have 1.4 trillion owed and its in the hands of the public with little or no financial skills at all apart from what they have picked up themselves. It seems we just have to 'hope' that the borrowers pay it all back, in full and on time - and i think thats where the system will fail, its reliant on the average person managing their finacial pot, and well if they have to borrow then the question is why are they in that position in the first place? Just my opinon.

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  • laislapequena
    Love rating 0
    laislapequena said

    My take on this is that the blame is a 50/50 thing. Yes the banks should shoulder half of the blame for pumping people into excessive lending without too many or no checks at all. Whatever happened to common sense and basic maths. If you throw money around like they have been doing, you are not going to get it all back, stands to reason. Secondly, I also blame people who borrow from banks. Do they not think that they may either be borrowing too much or what will happen if they cannot pay it back? Do they not consider the reality of how they would pay the money back if for example they lost their job or their wife were to fall pregnant? When I was brought up, if you couldn't afford it, you saved for it. This in turn taught you the value of saving and the increased pleasure of expectation whilst you saved for the day you could afford to go and buy what you wanted.

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  • sstudent
    Love rating 0
    sstudent said

    If the truth be told the debt mountain is caused by two main factors, irresponsible lenders lending money to people who quite clearly cannot pay the money back or are of questionable status. And people who borrow money that they cannot afford to pay back. The issue is responsibility on both sides.

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  • Accountantsmum
    Love rating 0
    Accountantsmum said

    I can't agree with zyliminy that debt is wrong in itself. I took out quite a big loan two years ago for a lovely new bathroom: but I can afford to make the payments without trouble. Nothing, in my view, wrong with that. But I agree totally with all those who mention student loans. The one thing we teach all University students is that big, big debts are OK, by forcing these loans on them. I was lucky: I had an industrial apprenticeship, and BP paid for five years of university education for me. Nothing like that now! Bring back the student grant: these young people are doing us a favour by living on very low incomes for three or four years and working to get qualified. Then the debt culture will start to diminish.

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  • ajfish
    Love rating 3
    ajfish said

    Those people here who are saying it's the bank's fault for lending to people who cannot afford to pay the loan...I don't understand, why would the bank want to do that? And blaming the banks for lending the money in the first place is a bit like blaming the car salesman for sellling you the car which was involved in the car accident which you caused.

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  • hobboexfireman
    Love rating 0
    hobboexfireman said

    I generally agree with the article.
    I think the present government have fuelled debt, partly by conning us with the supposed low inflation figures which in turn made credit easy and available due to low interest rates. We also have a culture of people who cannot wait to have material things, they are a must have now population and will borrow to satisfy that need.
    Students have to go into debt to study for a degree, another money saving venture by the government.
    Gordon Brown as chancellor must take a lot of the blame, he speaks endlessly about his prudence and financial rules that must not be broken. He spent all the money left by the previous government, money which he stole from pension funds and everything else he could lay his hands on. He also built our so called wonderfully successful economy on personal debt.
    I agree that people should not borrow beyond their means and are to blame for the predicament they find themselves in, they borrowed the money, they should pay it back by whatever means, sell their homes or posessions but do not expect responsible people to pay their way for them.

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  • SeeSense
    Love rating 0
    SeeSense said

    Before entering into any finance agreement, should it be required to produce evidence that the party requesting the credit is mentally capable of understanding the agreement and of managing their financial affairs? Why AFTER running up huge debts which, let's face it, those who do manage their affairs end up paying, do they suddenly decide the problem was someone else's responsibility?

    As for banks etc. Anyone with common sense would know that there are some people who have no intention/ are not capable of keeping up with payments and so could have limited the possibility of getting into the mess they are currently in.

    France is not in this situation,unlike those countries where credit was so freely given. The question then arises, why did the French government put on the right limits and the UK, US etc governments not?

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  • samsamani
    Love rating 0
    samsamani said

    Im sorry but when u are 18 and u immediately get the offer of credit cards through your door and have no real idea of the real concept of what your about to take on I dont think you can wholely blame the child (as thats what i was, a child!)
    the government without thinking allowed my generation to become enthralled in this buy now pay later environment as credit is splashed everywhere!!
    although as an adult now (26) I take full responsibility for my actions and NOW know the sh*t I have gotten myself in and am still coping with credit cards I will not accept that at 18 I had any clue or level of responsibility to take on what I was given willy nilly by irresponsible greedy lenders!
    they have tightened this all up TOO LITTLE TOO LATE and we now have a generation of ppl who are not only screwed for getting on the proeprty ladder but are also in piles of debt.

    Eductate the children as to the consequence of borrowing (as maybe not all parents do this) and show them from a young age that borrowing leads to dispair! dont assume that when u hit 18 u are therefore able to make a rational decision on what looked like easy money to me at the time.
    everyone is to blame ESP the FSA for not creating tight enough rules about lending to youngsters in the early 2000's!

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  • TMFLaura
    Love rating 0
    TMFLaura said

    Loads of really interesting comments here - I'm particularly interested in all the references to students and student borrowing.

    I used to be a teacher, and have long believed that the lack of any proper personal finance education in schools is a key reason why young people do not understand the dangers and realities of getting into debt.

    We don't teach them about interest rates, compound interest, how to find the best deals on financial products or what the impact of borrowing can be long-term. Then, we encourage them to go to University ("50% must go!!" we are constantly told) and we offer them loans that they do not properly understand, which they will have to carry for the rest of their lives... Not to mention the commercial debts that also come with getting a degree.

    We are failing young people in this country. We desensitise them to borrowing, and doom all but the most savvy to decades of debt.

    In an old A level class of mine, half the students had store cards but only a few of them realised what awful products they were and made sure they were paid off each month.

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  • ricanold
    Love rating 0
    ricanold said

    I blame the pension companies. They have enormous power because we are forced to give them control over enormous amounts of money; money they then use to purchase control of all kinds of businesses. Including lenders. They never punish mistakes, even when bordering on the criminal, and instead, encourage this activity by giving those responsible multi-million pound severence payments to go away or accept promotion. Politicians say nothing because they hope to benefit when it comes their turn. An evil tri-umverate with no regulation except what they devise for each other and all fuelled on our money.

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  • lowknapp
    Love rating 0
    lowknapp said

    I am old enough to remember that I was unable to borrow money from a lending institution, without being able to put down a significant portion of the purchase price and to show that I had the wherewithal to repay the loan over time. Unsecured loans were a rarity and expensive, reflecting their risky nature. HP was also expensive, but tightly controlled.
    The advent of credit cards and the subliminal pressure to purchase now what in the past you would save for, or save a significant portion of, has inevitably fuelled consumers' ability to borrow. This has encouraged an attitude of 'I can have it now' rather than 'I must start saving for it'. In addition, the stigma of debt of late means nothing with such easy and lowcost means of reneging on it. This says that if you want something, it can be cheaper to buy it, default, repay a portion and still retain your financial credibility after a short, if austere, period. No opprobrium there then.
    As the article points out, all participants are at fault to some extent. T'was ever thus. Times and means change, but the problem doesn't.
    Our personal attitude to taking on debt is the key. If we dont want to over-extend ourselves, we won't. If we have done, either through error of judgement or changed circumstances, we take action to resolve it, foregoing future pleasures to repay the cost of past ones. Some call it personal responsibility. While lenders are by no means lilywhite, building into their business models a high level of potential bad debt (perhaps shareholders should be more critical here?), the individual (while some are more easily tempted than others), always has the answer - to have or to have not.

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  • complyman
    Love rating 0
    complyman said

    Much of the debt crisis is also caused by irresponsible banks who undertook complex financial transactions they didn't understand getting themselves into huge debt when the loans defaulted because they were based on sub prime home loans in the US. They then pull the plug on cheap finance at the same time as everyone is in debt partly due to their encouragement and irresponsible lending in the UK. A real double whammy. Surely some of the bank chiefs should consider their positions before it gets even worse. The Government and FSA should have seen it coming too and last but not least a society based on greed is now paying the price.

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  • foxhaven19
    Love rating 0
    foxhaven19 said

    I agree entirely, no one forces anyone to borrow beyond their means. And those who do deserve the consequences

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  • laalaa41
    Love rating 3
    laalaa41 said

    Some of us have events in our lives that we have no choice but to get a bank loan. Few take the decision lightly and there always has been checks to ensure one is earning enough to make the repayments. Banks do round up the amount you are asking for. You ask to borrow (say) £6K end up owing £8/9K with interest added!

    It always has been common sense that financial institutions are more likely to lend to you when you take PPI with it so we signed for that too - in droves. Thinking we didnt have the choice. Now banks call their people "advisers" and once they were just that. Folks who would give you astute advice on your money - since the 80s (at least) they are only sales people and poorly trained at that.

    We have been queuing up at FSO's door because banks have been ruthless - now it's our turn to demand a product that is "fit for purpose".

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  • matchmade
    Love rating 38
    matchmade said

    I'm afraid I disagree with those who bemoan student debt. Frankly students in this country still have it cushy compared to other countries: they pay nowhere near the actual cost of a university education, and they get through their degrees in double-quick time and with much better student-staff ratios compared to countries like the US or Germany. The point of debt is leverage: it enables you to achieve certain things in life that lack of capital otherwise prevents you, and you pay interest and ultimately repay the debt in return for this. I think it a very good thing that students learn that taking a degree costs money and being an adult means having responsibility for managing your income and debts.

    As regards the wider debt issue, everyone's to blame and now everyone's being punished, from banks to individuals. There is nothing new in any of the current recession, and it will be a salutory lesson for everyone, myself included. Yes, banks need to be responsible in their lending, but equally individuals should borrow responsibly, and if some suffer, are even made homeless, because of their lack of preparedness and bad luck, so be it.

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  • oneofthepayers
    Love rating 0
    oneofthepayers said

    Like many of those who have already commented, I was brought up in a culture where, if you did not have the money (your own), you did not buy it. Indeed, my parents' mantra of "We can't afford it" is so well engrained that now, when I can afford a lot of what the consumer society offers, it still prompts me not to buy and I have to make an effort to override it. But, as the substitute question to myself is: "Do you really want that xxx?" I usually find myself not buying because the honest answer is "No".

    To get to my actual comment: As a small shareholder in a number of banks, I have seen my investment diminish rapidly in recent months, but I hear that those traders and other senior bank employees, who should be taking responsibility for the mess they got financial institutions into with their over clever opaque repackaged debt instruments and the like, are still getting hefty bonuses related to past "performance". Surely their bonuses should now be negative, ie they should be called upon to repay some or all of their now seen to be ill-gotten gains.

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  • easylivingforme
    Love rating 0
    easylivingforme said

    I mostly agree with what's already been said. When you borrow money you take on the responsibility to pay it back! No-one else!

    One other observation, if you save up for things rather than buying them "on credit" that delays the purchase. Its amazing how many times, at the end of the 3 months/2 years or whatever, you find you no longer "need" it! Impulse buys are nearly always a mistake and therefore are a waste of money. Without credit cards/easy loans therefore we would all spend our money more effectively, spend less of it, and therefore be better off!

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  • cml500
    Love rating 0
    cml500 said

    While I agree that there are many irreponsible lenders out in the world I am currently treasurer of a community credit union rersponsible for the safe keeping of member's deposits which are used to lend low cost loans to other members.
    The change in the bankruptcy rules have hit us hard. people are being told oon TV every day that " debt counselling companies " can wipe out your debt within a certain time period. One year if you do choose bankruptcy and three years if you choose to enter into an arrangement. What most of the public do not realise is that these firms (some of the largest accountancy firms in the country" see this as a major earning stream as they deduct a rediculously high level of fees before any creditors are paid. In a recent case after deduction of their fees (in excess of £6000) we were offered 17p in the £. The new rules have created a get rich quick field for these companies to the detriment of responsible lenders

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  • ItsAnOutrage
    Love rating 0
    ItsAnOutrage said

    For all the people moaning that the government or FSA didnt do enough in to stop banks from lending to people who were less able to repay, consider this.
    Just how easy do you think it would have been, (when all of us aspirational young spenders were out there enjoying cheap credit), for the government to say:

    "No, we wont allow this or that bank to lend you the money because you are too poor.","The bank doesnt think so, but we do, so you cant have it."

    They would probably have been even more unpopular than they are at the moment.

    You get the government you deserve, and their financial irresponsibility is a reflection of ours.

    We wont let our politicians tell us what to do but then complain when we get into trouble that they didnt hold our hand and see us through.

    samsamani said
    "Im sorry but when u are 18 and u immediately get the offer of credit cards through your door and have no real idea of the real concept of what your about to take on I dont think you can wholely blame the child (as thats what i was, a child!)"

    Well I'm sorry but technically when you are 18 you are NOT a child you are an adult whether you are ready or not. Thats why you got all those offers from credit cards.

    "PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY", no-one is born with it and, it seems, fewer an fewer are being taught it by their parents teachers and society as a whole.

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  • rogerae
    Love rating 0
    rogerae said

    Actually I blame the government, almost entirely. My kids have both recently left school. I asked them how much time in their school lives they had spent learning about personal finance. The answer was none at all. The only information which most children have about personal finance is the endless adverts for loans which rarely make a big issue about paying it all back. In fact our children choose their lifestyles almost entirely from TV advertising which urges spend, spend, spend and have it all now!

    We need to educate children at school about personal finance and lifestyle along with the present curriculum subject of Personal, Health and Social studies.

    Like the author of this article I worry that the people who will end up paying for all this are those amongst us who have behaved responsibly.

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  • diaryroom
    Love rating 0
    diaryroom said

    I am really bored with the hypocritical way in which we blame the banks for doing what they do (lending money) too cheaply and then for making too much profit. And now we laugh at them for making bad decisions and making a loss

    Seriously, they're a business (like fast fatty foods) and you get what you ask for...

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  • piano72
    Love rating 0
    piano72 said

    How complicated is the concept of paying interest on a loan? If you can't work it out, you shouldn't be going to university. And when u hit 18, yeah, u r an adult, innit. But what's this? Unsolicited credit card invitations? Oh no, I have to accept them don't I, it's the law or something?
    Trouble is, I know someone who's recently made himself bancrupt, he's had three holidays this year alone. Maybe we should all go bancrupt, sod the country, we can take the money off the poor saps who saved more than they spent.

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  • gladysnotme
    Love rating 0
    gladysnotme said

    Seems to me there are several words missing from the previous posts that need consideration in this discussion of blame, personal responsibility and debt. These are APR and Ethics. Loans range from 0%, for those with a good credit score, to 37% or higher to those considered risky. What this boils down to is those already with plenty of resources,(like myself, with a reasonable job, a mortgage taken out in the early eighties, and educated: means I can find my way around the small print pitfalls), can get 0% deals which are effectively being subbed by those for whom loans are only available at the highest rates. These would be people who have no assets, low paid jobs and, quite probably, given these first two criteria, limited financial savvy or guidance in managing their affairs.

    In broad terms, that means that for every £1.00 I borrow for a year, I pay little or no interest whereas, my ‘risky’ (and probably much less able to afford it) counterpart will pay £137.00 +..that's a huge difference..bring in compound interest and after 5 years it's easy to see why people can't go on. There's also more chance some-one on a tight budget will get lumbered with late fees, and worse, will be more tempted to take out cash for emergencies at an even higher rate. I would like to ask those who have contributed such harsh words about those in debt, is this fair or ethical? More to the point, how would they themselves manage if everything they borrowed cost them 37% plus?

    There is already recognition that the payment system for utilities, such as gas and electric is unfair / unethical to those struggling on low income and forced to use prepayment cards etc which are more expensive. There are proposals to put this right. The situation is far worse/unethical in a credit system that allows me (and no doubt many of those literate and probably comfortably off who have written so harshly about debtors) to have virtually free loans for any whimsy, on the back of those using credit to simply survive and have no choice but pay extortionate rates.

    Maybe before pointing the finger of blame for defaulting on payments we need to look at who the money is owed to and at what rate, consider the person’s total income and ask how we’d survive on that without borrowing.

    If people eventually (and inevitably) default on these high interest cards...so what? The card companies have had their profit many times over. (Just one months interest at 37% is more than I’d pay in a year on my 0% cards.

    Yes, I do know individuals who have knowingly abused the credit system, but I also know other honest, low income individuals who can only borrow at ridiculously high rates, who go short on basics in the struggle meet the repayments for as long as they can. If the criteria for loans were tightened up, extortionate rates are outlawed, and the gap between the 0%-37+ % that the rest of us pay was narrowed, making us all pay the real cost of our borrowings, my feeling is there would be fewer debt casualties and fewer smug comments on this site about ‘debt irresponsibility’.

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  • Aylinco32
    Love rating 0
    Aylinco32 said

    Certainly the banks are primarily to blame for the debt crisis. Loans made by any bank should be accompanied by checks on the recipient's ability to pay back the loan.

    Attempts to make house purchase easier only pushed up house prices fuelling wage inflation and leaving the population with less disposable income. For this I blame the government for chasing electoral popularity and the banks for offering loans of 100% and more.

    Aylinco32

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  • AlanGrahame
    Love rating 0
    AlanGrahame said

    Primarily I blame Gordon Brown and his ignorance in understanding basic economics. His move to set up the FSA has been an unmitigated disaster, witness Northern Wreck. Having worked many years ago in the money market, I recall the subtle pressure that the Bank of England could bring to bear when banks were being imprudent with their lending. It didn't always work, as in the property crash of the late 80s. However the growth of debt has got out of control, whilst at the same time, the savings ratio has hit a low.

    Lets also not forget the huge growth in Private Finance Initiative projects which, whilst giving us new hospitals etc have left the next generation with massive debts. It is typical of Brown to try and hide these debts "off-balance sheet" whilst at the same time criticising companies for "Enron-style" accounting. PFI debt is debt like any other, but if Brown had included it, the overall debt figures would have been much worse than they seen to be, and made a nonsense of his tarnished "golden rules"

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  • peterhuntington
    Love rating 0
    peterhuntington said

    capetownpeter puts it in a nutshell
    'The field and the fences are everthing to the sheep'.

    Most of the comments above are right on.
    I won't bore you with details of my £100k of unsecured debt which I will repay.

    However the banking institutions including the privately owned Federal Reserve Board and Federal Reserve Banks who are agents of foreign central banks have a self interest in creating boom and bust cycles.
    The Federal Reserve has followed a consistant policy of flooding the Global economy with easy money, leading to an atificial boom followed by a recession or depression when the Federal Reserve induced bubble bursts.
    The control of money and the banking system is engineered to perpetuate the wealth of the 12 main central banks who own the Federal Reserve.
    For a brief overview see Nik Halik's latest book The Thrillionaire (pag 107 to 113)

    'The field and the fences are everthing to the sheep'
    Have Fun

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  • capetownpeter
    Love rating 0
    capetownpeter said

    Financial discipline
    Financial discipline can be one of a number of subjects taught at school, along with relationship management for example. Religeous education type of subjects.
    One thing my kids understand is to have a float of three months salary and use this to cope with the unexpected, including unexpectadly good-looking bargain holidays for example. But expect to pay back your float. It's not very difficult that, is it?

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  • emmak789
    Love rating 0
    emmak789 said

    I think getting credit and loans is far too easy in the UK. My friend in Spain, had to get her parents to be a guarantor in order to get a credit card despite having a job and savings, it was very difficult to get one and even then she was given a very low credit limit of 500 euros.

    I have never had to do anything like that, I have been offered credit left right and centre since I was 18. Even now I keep getting capital one mailing me with application forms.

    I do think banks and lenders have to take some responsibility for handing out credit too easily.

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  • chasbmw
    Love rating 5
    chasbmw said

    Everyone has forgotten that in an economy with low wage inflation, debt even at lowish interest rates is very expensive to be paid off as it has to be paid off with real money, rather than by letting wage inflation at 10% to quickly reduce the real cost of the debt

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  • MCMXCIX
    Love rating 0
    MCMXCIX said

    I have to agree with DIYfixer.

    I don't know where it came from, but what has saved me from ever getting into debt over my head is the awful sense of shame and inadequacy I have experienced whenever I have been reliant on my overdraft to survive.

    An internal abhorrence of owing money to someone else made it difficult for me to get too much into debt, even when financial institutions were trying to make it easy.

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  • dotcombubble
    Love rating 0
    dotcombubble said

    WHO is to blame?
    This phrase is becoming a religion to many people in the UK.The people who fail to pay back money they borrow are RESPONSIBLE for their debt.
    The debt situation was exasperated by the manipulated ever growing housing values. Labour deliberately increased demand for housing by opening the borders of the UK. Thus ensuring the further advance of the housing market. But just like many government policies they did not seem to think this through and the inevitable cliff is now right in front of us.
    Our society needs to learn and teach HUMAN RESPONSIBILITIES and not human rights and how to deligate blame when things don't go well.

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  • akfwillow
    Love rating 0
    akfwillow said

    I seem to have been pretty poor all my life, despite a degree earned in the fifties when only a few went to university. My widowed mother struggled to keep me at home as grants were small if you lived near a university. Fortunately, I lived in Edinburgh. As student, travelling was out of the question. My pocket money was £1.00 a week. I had to make my own clothes, or my mother made them. I worked most of the vacations and on Saturdays. There was not a lot of choice of careers for a female arts graduate then. I am not sure ther is now.

    When married, my husband's contributions were insufficient to keep me from having to spend almost all I earned on essentials for the family. He never saved anything. What savings I accumulated were usually wiped out on 0ther, accumulating dabts. Divorced at 59, I embarked on an interest only mortgage I shall never repay while alive, though the value of my modest cottage has tripled. My inadequate teacher's pension added to the state pension keeps me just over the benefits line, though I am plunging now into official poverty. My bank rings me up almost every week wanting to make an appointment to "review my finances" unable to appreciate that I have practically nothing to review.

    Fed up with all financial institutions I have recently joined the really poor by taking out an account with a Credit Union, saving a modest sum every month. There are few perks, but no hassle. I feel there should be Credit Unions on every campus.Students can still have a very basic bank account as well, but could also put cash into their CU account physically whenever they are passing. Inside one term, they would be in a position to borrow three times whatever they had saved, say for a short trip. At least the habit of saving very small sums could become ingrained and the connection between what you have saved and waht you can afford would be made clear. of Course. bog banks see graduates as a possible source of big bucks later. I foresee that a good proportion of thoese graduating from universities will not be earning all that much in future. ther are simply too many of them.

    In a way, being old, on my own, and pretty poor is astimulating challenge. I shop in discount stores and at boot sales, turn a blind eye to my decaying furnishings, will go without almost anything to keep an ageing car on the road, revel in not going to work. However I am hooked on my computer and the damned thing is already nearing obsolescene in only three years.

    My grown up children are managing but how will my lavishly provided for grandchildren learn to be independent? Or will the economy still be in recession when they grow up?

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  • ItsAnOutrage
    Love rating 0
    ItsAnOutrage said

    rogerae says
    "Actually I blame the government, almost entirely" but then goes on to say "In fact our children choose their lifestyles almost entirely from TV advertising which urges spend, spend, spend and have it all now!"
    Just how much of this advertising is funded or commisioned by government?
    Wheras I agree that the government has a responsiblity to get financial teaching into the national ciriculum. My point is not that the government is blameless but that it is exactly this media pressure which ties their hands. People are complaining that the government is just doing things to get votes ie "be popular".
    Of course they are! How else can they get into power and stay there. It's called parlimentary democracy and it's a far from perfect system of government. If they say or do anything unpopular the populous media will destroy them. Just look at what they've done to Gordon Brown over the last year. Now, I'm no fan of Brown but in a society where people are more likely to pay £1 vote on who stays in the big brother house than to go to a polling staion and select a leader for free. Is it any wonder that the youth are choosing their lifestyle from the Advertisers, Media Moguls and Powerfull Financial Organisations who have far more sinister motives and power than an impotent, temporary government.

    I have sympathy for those struggling with debt for whatever reason. I have been there and its no fun, but we need to stop trying to find "someone" to blame and recognise that it is the "system". The world is structured to benefit the rich at the expense of the poor. It always has been, as wealth usually equates to power and influence. If it didn't no-one would want to be rich, and where would the Advertisers be then?

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  • womanofmeans
    Love rating 0
    womanofmeans said

    I think a lot of people use credit and credit cards to make up the shortfall in the benefits system, having to wait months for benefits to be sorted meanwhile having to find cash for utilities, rent, Council Tax etc etc, where the only option on a nil income is to use the card or risk a NOSP being served, the gas, electric and telephone being cut off and ultimately being left homeless while the Local Authority sort out Housing Benefit and Council Tax Benefit and the Benefits Agency decide whether or not you are eligible and then get in wrong in many cases. I've accrued huge debts just because of this problem over the years and I know of many other people in a similar situation. Debt is always down to a wish for consumer goods or an extravagent lifestyle, but just to maintain a roof over one's head.

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  • Thrifty111
    Love rating 0
    Thrifty111 said

    rogerae:
    "I blame the Government almost entirely" for not educating your kids in Financial Responsibility? How about taking responsibility yourself and teaching them that 2+2 does not equal 7.
    I certainly thank my now departed parents for teaching me that if you ain't got the cash, you can't have it! Borrowing (other than to buy a house) is a mugs game.
    If so many kids can pass A levels at a pass rate of nearly 100% surely they must be more intelligent than my generation and therefore should be able to grasp simple maths? Or are the exams far easier than they were in order to shovel whole geberations into forced Student Loan debt thereby fuelling our economy with false income, making Mr Brown's figures look better?
    This is what you get when you have a creative accountant for a PM!

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  • skiertignes
    Love rating 0
    skiertignes said

    It is very difficult to talk about debts. Those who are lucky enough to be able to make their monthly repayments on credit card bills, mortgages loans and credit cards tend to despise those who can't and blame them for being ignorant and irresposible. I agree a lot of people who' struggle' may have been irresponsible, especially those who may have used their house as a cash machine and remortgaged too many times.
    Let us face it : too many people have forgotten this key word : BUDGET !!!
    Simple . I have never been good at maths, however setting a budget is dead simple, there are a lot of online tools available to help and since I have taught myself to do so I have never felt so much in control.
    It takes time, but once this skill is acquired, it is great ! Good luck everyone. Let us not blame the banks or lenders, WE are all responsible for our own actions.

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  • Zweiblumen
    Love rating 0
    Zweiblumen said

    People are wasting lot of time arguing about whether lenders or borrowers are to blame. At the risk of alienating just about every contributor so far, it's obvious to any dispassionate observer, i.e. one whose judgement is not clouded by their own debt, woolly lefty thinking, or smug self-righteousness mixed unpleasantly with more than a whiff of schadenfreude, that they both are!

    Banks used to ensure that borrowers could pay their debts before lending money. This was a fiduciary duty both to their shareholders and to the borrowers. They are no longer doing this so that they can rake in bigger profits, and shame on them for chasing profit by risking shareholders' money and the future of some of their customers.

    However, as has rightly been pointed out, individuals are responsible for their own finances. Most people are offered credit on a weekly or even daily basis. Some forgo the expensive foreign holiday shown on the glossy leaflet to tempt them into borrowing because they can't afford it! This does not make them better than the people who do take on the debt, but it does show them to be wiser.

    Is it so hard to see that the girl in the example and the bank are both in the wrong?

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  • Phil135
    Love rating 0
    Phil135 said

    I like Carlosdjackal quote "But you might as well blame the sea for falling off your surf board."

    We should be under no illusion who is to blame when having debt problems: THE BORROWER. If you borrowed a tenner from your mum you wouldn't refuse to pay her back on the principle that she was irresponible giving it to you in the first place so whats the difference with a bank.

    However, I do believe that the government and the banks are responsible for creating a "Culture of Debt". If you flip it on its head, in the past decade there has been absolutely no reason whatsoever to save. Interest rates have been so low that inflation (the real RPI stuff) has pretty much erroded any net gains on basic investments. Therefore the only thing to do is spend, and spend we have! Personally I think that the Blair government employed a "Not on my Watch" policy becuase they knew a recession was overdue and so kept spending and keeping rates low to resist it until Blair left and dropped the next government/leader in the s**t.

    Back on the debt culture thing, people are now expected to get into debt. How many people do you know that buy a car, not on finance these days? From a young mans perspective, if I go to a bar and start a conversation with a girl the first three questions I innevitably get asked are: what job do you do, where do you live and what car do you drive: This is because we live in an ultra-materialistic environment, which for most of us requires debt to live up to.

    All the banks have done is to make it easy for us to "Live the Dream". Its still our own responsibility to pay back the debt though.

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  • MartinEdney
    Love rating 0
    MartinEdney said

    Generally I agree that the blame is to be shared between borrowers, banks and Government in more or less equal measure.

    But thinking back, I also think the roots of this crisis were laid in 1981, when the Thatcher government removed Competition and Credit Control. The sudden availability of unrestricted credit that this caused fuelled the boom, then bust of the 1980s, and I think is the root cause of the current situation we're in now (along with the already mentioned borrowers, banks and government).

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  • ajfish
    Love rating 3
    ajfish said

    Look don't bang on about the kids of today not being taught about budgeting, mortgages and compound interest rates. I wasn't taught that at school in the 70's and my parents weren't taught that at school in the 40's. My daughters are not taught that in school in the years 2000 onwards. So we are all in the same boat with regard to the level of education on borrowing from banks. And to the poster who says that people can be charged 37% interest rates because they are high risk, what warrants taking out any loan at this level? New trainers, the price of fags and own brand larger had gone up? The need for a foreign holiday? I am sorry, if you can't afford it you need to learn to do without. I am not saying don't borrow at all, just look at what you need to be paying back and BUDGET.
    And..
    "Some of us have events in our lives that we have no choice but to get a bank loan."
    Name one? No choice?? Of course you do. And that's the issue here, most people who find themselves in debt mess are those who take the easy loan option without considering the alternative. It's not the fact that loans were easy to come by, it's because the decision was made to take it on.

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  • abrahamisaacs
    Love rating 0
    abrahamisaacs said

    In a democracy, can we really blame the government when it was us who voted Labour in term after term after term?

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  • Bartron
    Love rating 0
    Bartron said

    My thanks to gladysnotme for introducing some sanity to some of this debate. I was starting to despair over the views of DIYfixer and others with their supporting comments. Not everyone gets into debt because they want the latest designer gear. We used to live in a world where the poorest people would try and live within their means, but now they are pushed into taking out loans to resolve their financial difficulties. High risk loans = high interest rates = high chance of it going wrong. Why would the banks do that? Because people tend not to default immediately, nor do they stop making payments when they get into difficulty. And people shouldn't think that people are immediately going bankrupt or getting an instant IVA. By the time any money is written off they have probably already repaid the loan amount. the other thing to realise is that many of the loans taken out are to help with existing debts. So someone could have taken out a loan to buy a bed (luxury item) but then they get into difficulty and take out a succession of loans to "consolidate". And these all come with high interest rates and "compulsory" PPI.
    If you think people aren't pushed into loans, well think about the hard sell from a supposed expert to a vulnerable uneducated person. What we need is not just better education but also better ethics and a little less greed. And we need to stop people from using the poor to get rich.

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  • sandiegillam
    Love rating 0
    sandiegillam said

    It's interesting that we need to blame somebody as a society - yes students do need to borrow unless their family earn enough to provide for them. And yes banks do lend money and YES people do default. It's a fact of life - but circumstances change. You may take a loan and be made redundant or suddenly find yourself caring for a sick relative or being made redundant or both!
    Surprise! You now can't afford your previous way of life! Some people don't want to pay their debts and they may genuinely believe it's the banks fault. Some people may really believe it's the present government - because they didn't foresee accurately the impact of the American market.

    At the end of the day, the economy is in decline, prices are rising and people are struggling to make ends meet. I'm NOT referring to happily employed people with a disposable income! These people can CHOOSE how to spend their money and sometimes they CHOOSE to spend it on socialising rather than commitments.

    Spare a thought for those people whose income is LESS than the cost of living for basic items like gas, electricity, food and water. It's growing number of people and they are here in the UK. Not some third world country. And some of these people are working full time, too.

    If you want to blame the governement, blame the government who created THAT little mess! That's where poverty and not paying debts stems from in today's climate.

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  • Smartinspired
    Love rating 0
    Smartinspired said

    I would personally like to know why some people continually advocate an outward BLAME CULTURE!

    When the finger is pointed outward, three other fingers point inward - try it!

    Those 3 fingers represent 3 times the strength of blame than the one going out, and of course they are pointing at YOU!

    So, if anything, we could look at who WE are being when we decide to borrow money. That is, if you haven't earned it, you are using someone else's cash for that product or service. That's ok, however, The owner of the cash will in turn require motivation to lend it to you in the guise of interest, and if you don't pay it back quickly, that interest payment grows!

    I am certain this will strike a chord with some of you, so please, will everyone at least understand that if you do not wish to be in-debted to others, do not borrow!

    Have you any spare? Try lending it to others and see what happens. You may even feel empowered. Never complain when things don't go according to your plan - involving others, means they too have a plan!

    I hope you have a love-ly day and I wish you abundance in all that interests you!

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  • ajfish
    Love rating 3
    ajfish said

    But Bartron, even in your example you cite the first mistake made "So someone could have taken out a loan to buy a bed (luxury item)". What I don't understand is why you would do that. No one is forcing anyone to take out a loan for a luxury bed are they? Yes, loads for this would be easy to come by, but the problem is the belief that it's okay to do that in the first place. I just grew up with the mentality that if you can't afford now you will have to save for it.

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  • margaretc
    Love rating 0
    margaretc said

    I don't blame any of the successive governments, I don't blame the banks. What I do think is that there has been a complete shift of mindset since the end of the Second World War. People were tired out, war-weary, sick of 'making do', and they wanted a better life. That's human nature and no one can be blamed for that.

    However, there was, over time, a change in attitude and expectation. Growing up the the 1940s/50s, no one around me expected very much at all, and by and large they were grateful for whatever they got. A job was the first thing - leave school Friday, be at work Monday, bring your wages home and start paying your way. A roof over your head was the next thing. Not a 'foot on the housing ladder'! Many people are still living at home but are NOT paying the costs of living there - parents can subsidise them for an indefinite period of time. If they have income then it's for 'fun stuff'.

    I was taught to save from my first day at primary school in September 1940. I taught my daughters to save, small amounts in little accounts locally. Mostly, saving small amounts so that they build up is not something that happens any more.

    In the succeeding decades, everyone wanted the latest consumer goods - black and white TV then replace it with colour, and so it went on.

    Whereas before we were 'wage slaves', going to work to produce all these things, now it doesn't matter if we go to work or not. Mostly, production has moved to other countries anyway. What we can do is buy - the consumer goods that we used to produce, now coming by the container-load from China. So, our purpose in life has changed. We have to keep the world economy going, not by working and producing, but by borrowing and buying.

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  • NRfarce
    Love rating 0
    NRfarce said

    As someone with a Northern Rock mortgage and has a commute of 300 miles a week by car - and no trains and public transport do not work in rural areas) Gordon Brown is making a tidy profit out of my family; which is definitely contributing to our debt.
    I've voted left and right over the last 20+ years but I've never loathed a PM until Brown.
    I hear he's not a well man; he's certainly made the UK sick.

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  • essexfairy
    Love rating 0
    essexfairy said

    Whilst I agree that many people borrow money which they can't afford and then use the 'get out of jail free card' of bankruptcy, spare a thought for those who have got into debt through no fault of their own.

    My husband left me in 2006 for someone else. Despite me being the injured party he then proceeded to try and force me to sell the house - even taking me to court! He stopped paying towards the mortgage immediately after he left leaving me in financial difficulty. I had no option but to put food bills and solicitor bills on my credit cards, sometimes even being forced to use credit card cheques which have a ridiculous amount of interest. (And for those of you wondering why I didn't cut my losses and just sell the house the simple answer is it would have cost me about £200 more minimum a month on rent than on the mortgage and with my wage I had no option to buy a new property by myself.)

    My now ex-husband's selfishness and inability to accept responsibility for his financial commitments has landed me in £10000 of debt. To add insult to injury the court essentially ruled in his favour and awarded him half the property value (taking no notice of the fact that he had not made any payments towards it for 2 years) and half of the initial £8000 deposit which I had paid for by myself prior to us being married.

    I now find myself in a scary amount of debt which is through no fault of my own. Although my finances are now more under control and I don't have the burden of solicitor's fees, I still find myself forking out £300+ a month on credit card bills which is a third of my wage.

    I don't blames the banks etc as they offered me a lifeline when I needed one most and thankfully allowed me to keep my property but as a result I find it very hard to keep in the black every month. That is entirely my ex's fault who was firmly in the camp of not taking responsibility for his finances.

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  • tonyblair101
    Love rating 0
    tonyblair101 said

    This whole debt thing confuses me(BSc, MA). The successful handling of the economy creditted to G.B. seemed always be based on growing debts. I heard him a number of times boasting that he had delivered 'the lowest interest rates' He also boasted about the success of 'the housing market. What a way to run an economy. Brown is a self satisfied , smug rascal. I am a longtimE emember of the Labour Party but that guy haS ALWAYS MADE ME SICK.

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  • seanomercy
    Love rating 0
    seanomercy said

    Although I agree mostly with the fact that it is with the consumer to watch their borrowings, and spendings. The fact that the likes of the HSBC made £7.6 billion in the first half of the Financial Year, shows that they are massively overcharging on Loans, and other comodities. And the only thing they are going to do with that sort of money, is lend it to people to get them into debt. What else are they going to do with it? Everything is based on how much more money you can make than your competitor, their is no emphasis on keeping your customers happy. It is, and always will be a Money grabbing world. Sod the consiquensis. We the people at the bottom of the ladder get to struggle by, while the big chief's at the top get to watch you squirm, and struggle, an probably have a good old laugh whilst they watch you.

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  • seanomercy
    Love rating 0
    seanomercy said

    On my last note. I would also like to add that if you are a bad debtor, or have had financial difficulties in the past,you have to pay higher interest rates on loans, and Credt cards. Surley this is a form of discrimination. Discrimination of any sort is illegal, and should be treated as such. Maybe it should be brought to the FA's attention. Or anybody reading this, who is Legally orientated might want to challenge this in court. Just a thought.

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  • capetownpeter
    Love rating 0
    capetownpeter said

    Citizens' Self Defense
    What a carry on. We'll get back eventually to the perils of usury and progress.
    Politicians are limited not by the constraints of the real world, but only by the credulity of their publics.
    In a democracy, we make individuals responsible for things that are, tructh be told, well beyond their understanding let alone control.
    One alternative is to impose "common sense" upon them, but it's a little ale to go back to totalitarianism.
    The very problem of the scams politicans and financiers invent to serve their interests would be even worse.
    The answer is to further extend the law and mst importantly to educate the citizens. It's a complicated world today, much more so thatn in the times of our parents, and we need to arm tomorrow's defenceless consumers.
    But the education system is tuned to the needs of the labour marketplace and theres precious little to help people survive. Religeous education used to provide those what you might call moral capabilities.
    It's just that this multi headed hydra we face, where do you begin? I would say with citizens' self defence programs starting at adolescence.

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  • eyeglass77
    Love rating 0
    eyeglass77 said

    GORDON BROWN is to blame, Remember NO BOOM OR BUST This lead people to believe that they would always have jobs/money to repay what they wanted / owed.Also the government spends money which they have not got Prudence - oh yes

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  • colrapspray
    Love rating 0
    colrapspray said

    A stupid and greedy public and a subprime financial system, not a subprime mortgage market.

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  • teafoo
    Love rating 47
    teafoo said

    Harvey Jones says 'this refusal to accept responsibility is widespread'
    and I think he is right, but sadly it doesn't just apply to money matters, it pervades our society. I don't want to be sued so who can I blame? Hence so many things like 'knives can be dangerous' - 'this coffee may be hot if you spill it' ... etc
    Shame.

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  • PuebloBoy
    Love rating 0
    PuebloBoy said

    The banks have changed their tune now - having been a loyal customer with my bank, and credit card companies, for 30 years or thereabouts, I was refused a small extra increase on my card limits and on my overdraft facility. When I enquired why?, as I'd always considered myself a good customer, the answers were "you live abroad" and "you were overdrawn last November"! The bank didn't want me to get into more debt than I could handle...fair enough, a pity they didn't apply the same criteria to their own sad lending practices, maybe then we wouldn't all be suffering because they have just had to write-off £600 million+ of bad debt. It's a joke the way they willy-nilly lose billions abroad (anyone remember Brazil??), yet can't find £500 of credit for long-standing customers. And as to finding someone at the end of a phone with whom you can have a common-sense discussion, who actually has the power to do anything about your situation...dream on! I will be paying back my debts in a couple of weeks time, but I have to say, given the way I have been treated in my hour of need,I am tempted to just let them try to recover them from me! But I won't, I'll simply pay off the debt and change my bank. So much for loyalty!

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  • 36rayel
    Love rating 0
    36rayel said

    Be immortal Harvey Jones - if only you could run the ship, & well stated DIY & others. When will the majority note the oldest & best bit of advice - if you can't afford it, save up for it, discipline yourself with your spending, then buy it. Have some respect for yourself and get out of the "must have" brigade who are the biggest bunch of wasters on this earth. Use your brain - you're not being forced to have another loan/card/debt- no-one will beat you up if you say no. For God's sake get rid of your totally selfish attitude of me,me,me. If you deliberately get into big debt more than once then you want PAXO. Like many here I have strong opinions & don't like having to prop up the braindead, selfish, whinging morons.

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  • DIYfixer
    Love rating 0
    DIYfixer said

    Ok for all the "it's not the borrowers fault the banks tempt people or the governments at fault or schools or circumstances are to blame". Get a grip, lets start with the government, this particular government interferes at more levels of my life than any other previous one, removing many aspects of choice that I once took for granted therefore I am defiantly not looking for any further government interference in my financial or any other dealings. Now for those who blame schools for not teaching finance to there children and that being the reason the system is at fault, I would argue WHO absolved YOU from the responsibility of teaching YOUR children subjects that are not covered by the current curriculum that you know to be of importance? You are the parent, get off your backside and you teach them, if you don’t know how, then find out how to or find someone who can. Now as for the banks tempting people, of course they will that’s what they do, that’s how they operate. When you go to buy a car, it’s the car sales persons job to part you with as much money as they can and if you spend twice as much as you intended to who is at fault? That’s right you, if by eating 6 beef burgers every day will make you fat and sick but you do it anyway who is at fault, the burger joint or you? That’s right you If you smoke 40 cigs a day and get cancer who is at fault you or the manufacturers? That’s right you, you’ve been told the risks. If jumping off a bridge kills you who is at fault, you or the bridge? That’s right you; do you see a pattern to this? There are many reasons to get in to debt, few are good but it comes down to the individual choice including students, yes in my opinion student doctors, nurses and essential science, engineering, mathematic and other such degrees do deserve to be funded by the tax payer, subject to proviso such as they pass and the newly qualified doctor works for the NHS for an agreed length of time, but…. degrees such as arts, history, languages and others of this type should not be tax payer funded these tend to be personal journeys and as such should be funded personally.

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  • uutasyw
    Love rating 7
    uutasyw said

    Who is to blame: We are.

    If you borrow money it is your responsibility to pay it back. If you don't like the way the banks lend to people, who don't accept personal responsibility like children or teenagers, then you need to look to the regulator who take their marching orders from the Government. Which brings us to the Government as a potential scapegoat, however, the problem with this is that we elect our MP's so it it our responsibility to elect the right persons & ensure we are vocal when they drop the ball. I'm just glad the Motley fool and the people on this site seem to take these type of issues seriously and with some thought: it gives me some hope for the future.

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  • ronat42
    Love rating 62
    ronat42 said

    I have to blame the government as their duty is to legislate and lead by example. However, we get the government that we (collectively) deserve. The sad fact is that very few individuals actually understand the issues that can create or destroy an economy so we have to ask "How many electors actually understand what they are voting for?" At every election, I try to consider all of the issues and vote according to my understanding. If I do not understand or cannot decide, I do not vote. If everyone did likewise, I wonder how many votes would be cast.

    One early example of the government's incompetance is way GB attacked the private pensions. This, and a total lack of control was a factor in the failure of Equitable Life. The irresponsible decision by the Law Lords and other subsequent inteference caused more problems. The govenment's answer was to stick their fingers in their ears and award themselves over generous pensions from the public purse.

    More recently, the 10% tax fiasco has shown their almost imbecile like behaviour. It was always blatently obvious that it was lunacy but they claimed that it would cost £4B to reverse the decision and then spent £7B in a panic making it worse.

    As for the debt problem, thay have calaimed that they have created a healthy economy. This is measured by the amount of retail activity. The fact that this was all down to a total lack of control on borrowing and a refusal to consider the effect of borrowing to buy an endless supply of imported goods or a home at a rediculously inflated price fuelled by suicidal lending.

    All of this causes money to be circulated at way above viable levels but, since every time it goes round, the goverment takes a healthy cut, this suits them very well.

    The current situation was forseeable 10 years ago but no-one had the guts to do anything about it, mainly because they wanted to 'Dip their bread'

    It will never get resolved while we have a 'me, me, me.' and 'I want it all and I want it now' society.

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  • Caswest
    Love rating 0
    Caswest said

    It all started 50 years ago with Harold MacMillan when he fiddled the economy and convinced us that we had 'never had it so good' He was right - for a couple of years until the bubble burst.

    Since then, successive governments have tried to outdo MacMillan so that todays generation of borrowers have grown up in a world where instant gratification is the norm. There is no such thing as saving up to buy luxury goods, or at least paying off a loan in weekly installments, straight from the pay packet.

    But each individual is responsible for his or her own actions and therefore can't blame anyone else when things go wrong. However, an increasing number of people don't subscribe to this view, and those of us who do are old fuddy duddies way out of touch with modern trends.

    And that is really where the problem lies; 'modern trends' have been developing since the 1960s and reckless borrowing is just another sympton of our very sick society.

    This sick society has been created by politicians of all the major parties and will continue to get worse until either it fails completely, or a very strong leader emerges who is prepared to start the cure.

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  • petitemisschief
    Love rating 22
    petitemisschief said

    Hopefully in the current financial climate, with rising interest rates, rising utility costs, petrol prices and increased inflation the nation will start to see the benefits of living a more simple life. We all need to cut our cloth to suit our width (oldies amongst you will know what that means!). One lady posted about how her husband had left her and caused her all her problems. The same happened to me - I was left with 2 children and have never had a penny of maintenance from my husband. I bought him out of the house and took on an increased mortgage and worked my socks off to keep me and my kids. I've always worked so didn't see this as anything extraordinary or a problem. I saw it as empowerment and financial freedom and I'm proud of the way I've managed. I've reduced my mortgage by cashing in useless endowments and pay every bit of extra cash I get off it. I've shared financial problems with my kids and I hope they've learned a lesson from me - that you get out and work and pay your way. All I owe is my mortgage and my car loan which is less than the amount I have saved. We've had to forgo a few things but we have holidays and they both have a pc, ps3 etc.. which they have been given as christmas presents or they save up for themselves - all paid for by cash. I've never expected anyhone to bale me out and I've never taken on more debt than I can afford. I'd love a conservatory or double glazing, a new car so I have a list of wants and I save for them and like someone said earlier sometimes I decide I don't actually need them any more. I'm just off to polish my halo!!!

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  • 51mac
    Love rating 0
    51mac said

    There's a thought - every time money moves, the Treasury get something out of it in Income Tax, VAT, Excise Duty, or whatever. So there's a lot of money circulating, being borrowed, and used to pay for goods and as well as the usual taxes being generated on earning income to pay for it and to spend it on something, there are is extra revenue from the interest and charges, all going into profits for the lender, and all being taxed. So if we returned to a savings based culture, the income for the government would fall. This would not be compensated by the extra tax we would pay on our savings interest, so does the government have any incentive at all to see a return to tighter credit control?
    Yes, I remember when you could only get HP with a squeaky clean record and a third deposit and a maximum of 2 (or was it 3) years to pay it back.
    But against the philosophy of 'save for it' we have to consider the effect of rampant inflation - by the time you've saved up, you still won't have enough as the price will have gone up (not everything goes down) and the advance in technology for electronic consumer items often means that the product you were saving for will be many years obsolete, replaced by a newer, better model which does more for you!
    I remember a first time buyer couple who used to save till it hurt for their deposit on a 2-bed house, they needed 10% and every time they came in and said they'd managed it, the latest releases of 2-beds were higher priced, and they had to go away and save against a new target. (And no! please don't all start to scream that it was the builders fault, that's a whole different ballgame and why do we think the builders don't have rising prices, salaries, material costs, interest, taxes and everything else to pay as well as us?).
    And to cap it all, jobs security or longevity don't exist anymore. I remember people who had been in the same job, or with the same employer all their working life - this doesn't happen now; our manufacturing industry has gone, and in the hard times, employers always seem to cut-back on sales effort, reduce advertising, close shops, instead of putting more effort into getting as much sales as they can. So if even sales jobs are at risk, how much more so are our jobs behind the front-line, no job is safe.
    So is it any wonder then, in a fast moving technological age, with rampant inflation, employment insecurity but easy-come money, that people will take the easy way out? Might well be short sighted, might well be risky, but it isn't always greed, although it often is!

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  • cptstrangepork
    Love rating 0
    cptstrangepork said

    Just a note re Student Loans. I too had the benefit of a 'means tested' grant whilst at Poly (remember those?) for which I was grateful. However some of my fellow students saw a student grant only as free money and, being able to continually apply for new grants year after year, became 'professional' students, never finishing a course and continually switching studies and even institutions. No wonder the government put a stop to it!

    I now live and work in the Netherlands and my eldest daughter is also studying here. The Dutch system provides a loan in 2 parts; the first, to cover tuition fees, is not repayable (i.e. a grant) the second, for living expenses, is repayable if the student fails to complete the course within a set period. Therefore the student is discouraged from course hopping and is debt free once they finish their course. - What a good idea!

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  • TMFGibbon
    Love rating 0
    TMFGibbon said

    .

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  • TMFGibbon
    Love rating 0
    TMFGibbon said

    .

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  • malcolmcochran
    Love rating 0
    malcolmcochran said

    When people agree with you, you call them "right." So in saying "You're right," it's only my view.
    But for what it's worth, everyone (above) seems right.
    The point I want to make (while recognising the responsibility of individuals not to screw up) is that the Banks really crossed the line. The thing about money is its ability to be in two (or more) places at once. But the thinner it's spread, the more dicey things get. Now, where was the Wisdom??? The Bankers knew what was going on. Essentially, they might just as well have been printing extra banknotes - and we know what happens when you do that. Of course the FSA knew, too. If it didn't, it's beyond belief.
    Now here we have a huge crisis and no-one is pointing the finger. If Minister X loses a Dossier, Calls for his/her resignation. But wreck the economy? - silence.
    Only one conclusion: some form of collusion exists between the Fox (Bankers) and the Chickens (FSA).
    I really have no support for Labour or Tory but if D Cameron had any gumption, why isn't he on his feet, asking for some head to roll? There must be some comfortable arrangement among the Establishment sweeping details under the carpet.

    I think this is so serious that it be a political issue. Either a Minister or a Civil Servant should be made an example of, to reduce the chance of it happening again (ie the Watchdog must not go to sleep). Because it will happen again, if the Bankers have their way - they've said as much.

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  • fenemore
    Love rating 202
    fenemore said

    Whilst I agree totally that debtors are responsible for their own actions, there is some merit in the notion that Banks bear some responsibility.

    I cannot remember just how long ago "Salespeople" turned into "Consultants" but it seemed to happen without anyone noticing, but that was the start of the rot setting in.

    On the one hand you have Banks employing so called "Consultants" to handle the sale of loans - a job which should, on the face of it, require a measure of compassion, skill and integrity. On the other hand those same Banks give their "Consultants" a performance target (a simple value measure of loans sold). Under these circumstances what chance does compassion, skill and integrity have?

    The fact of the matter is, if the "Consultant" fails to meet that target, then he is at risk of at best, an income reduction, at worst, no job at all!

    What would you do - retain your integrity and let your own kids go hungry, or sell the loan when you know it will end in disaster, but at least you have food on your table?

    I don't blame the Bank staff, they have been put in an impossible position. However, for the well heeled, fully insulated, pension-proof Boardroom members of our largest Banks, it is a completely different matter.

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  • ladyrosemary
    Love rating 0
    ladyrosemary said

    One of the greatest disservices you can do a man is to lend him money that he can't pay back.
    Author: Jesse H. Jones QUOTE

    The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance.

    Cicero QUOTE

    Nothing new under the sun then?

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  • durhamlassagain
    Love rating 0
    durhamlassagain said

    There is one organisation that has almost completely abrogated its responsibility for the debt crisis i.e the Church. One charitable organisation with Christian origins called Care for the Family has developed the Money Secret course in an attempt to try and educate people so they can develop the sort of money management skills MF is promoting but have any of you ever seen this course advertised anywhere.

    The materials are there for them to use but few can be bothered to use them. It is a complete course that includes no mention of anything that sounds in the least preachy or even religious but few can be bothered to do anything with the materials. Imagine having an entire set of course materials for a 30 hour course downloadable from the internet and there being virtually no one willing to run it.

    I have worked in an IT college and I have never been asked to teach a course and then been provided with as good a set of learning materials. There is a scheme of work, lesson plans, handouts and all the necessary resources. Yes all available as a free pdf download!

    Problem is that to run it requires someone to pay for room hire and teachers labour and that requires cash from somewhere. FE funding is so tight few colleges are willing to offer non-certicated courses like this. Sharing the costs of room hire and teachers labour between learners could create a barrier for those who most need to do the course. The only other way is to ask organisations for donations to cover room hire and use volunteer labour. I have tried to get others interested in supporting me to put such a course on but had little response so far and it is not easy organising something like this on your own without any practical or financial back up from anywhere.

    Care for Family have started to pilot a course targeted at young people which hopefully should be ready for general release next year. I hope that this has a better take up.

    Report on 23 August 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • gillianswain
    Love rating 0
    gillianswain said

    The banks have to take some of the blame. Firstly, they have become totally aloof (now you can't get them on the phone without the inevitable queues and requests to choose options only to go on to yet more options). Then try getting into your account. If you can't answer all of their computer generated questions they won't even discuss your account with you even if you have answered most of the questions (including your password) but perhaps have not got some information to hand (this happened to me - after waiting in the queue for 10/15 minutes I could answer all but one of their questions - I was not at my home and hadn't got the last piece of information to hand so in spite of explaining the situation, I was told to phone back again - they will tell you it is to protect your account but it just means that they get more money in phone revenue - a real rip off). Normally I would say that it's mostly peoples own fault if they get into debt (except for a home which we all need) but obviously there are people who have been made redundant, are very ill, or are retired and on fixed incomes when it becomes hard to manage and when the banks are pushing credit cards like mad it's easy to be seduced if you have debt worries. Despite being a widow I still get offered gold and platinum credit cards with no questions as to whether I can afford to pay them back or not. The banks have been quite willing to lend new home buyers mortgages of 5/6 times their salaries (obviously this has helped to push house prices up in the past) instead of the multiple of 2 to 3 times like they used to do. This stopped people taking on more debt than they could afford and house prices rose more steadily. I still see adverts on T.V. (one only the other night) announcing that if you got yourself into debt the government has put something in place so that some or all of the debt is written off. How does this encourage people not to get into debt? It means that if you save some of your money and are careful you are penalised because your money via your taxes is used to pay off other peoples debts and Britain has been like this for years. Surely it would be better for the banks to only lend people smaller multiples so that there is more chance that people can pay off the debt but I'm afraid that they have not done this in the past due to sheer greed - nice big mortgages mean nice big repayments. Then of course the banks have also leant money to other countries without finding out if they could pay the money back and because they have lost money this way they will make us pay via bank charges. I am afraid the rest is down to the "instant gratification" that Mac51 referred to. Having a fantastic home with the latest furniture, smart large car, designer clothes seems to attract praise from other people no matter how the money to get it was obtained (if someone said they had obtained the goods by robbing the bank most people would be discusted but take out a large loan that you can't repay and that is alright!). My house is a little old fashioned but everything in it is paid for. Despite this, some people just look down there noses and regard me as "having no class or taste" as one person put it if somewhat indirectly. It would be easy for me to have a super house. As I have never been in debt, own my own home, work for myself and have some savings, I'm sure that I could borrow money fairly easily and present a wonderful show for everybody but that is all it would be - show. I like nice things and when I have enough money I will buy them but until then I'll just be a little old fashioned... but there again if I get myself into debt it won't matter because the way we do things in this country all you nice people will pay it off for me!?

    Report on 24 August 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • AdrianStannard
    Love rating 0
    AdrianStannard said

    Its all a blame game...

    Report on 25 August 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • AdrianStannard
    Love rating 0
    AdrianStannard said

    Such as who to blame for failing to close the bold tag!

    Report on 25 August 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • AdrianStannard
    Love rating 0
    AdrianStannard said

    Only one person here correctly identified the Thatcher government as being the ultimate source of responsibility for the situation we have today, however not quite for the right reasons.

    In the highly informative text "Privatisation and it's alternatives", edited by W.T. Gormley, is an excellent series of papers by economists analysing the pitfalls of pursuing privatisation. One such paper looked into the problem of Thatcher's relentless pursuit of council house privatisation and house ownership. During 1980 - 1988, the total cost to the taxpayer of implementing her "vision" was £6.5bn. During the same period, the amount of money the taxpayer received from the sell-off of social housing stock, and associated projected savings from maintenance, was £3.5bn. It thus cost us more money to pursue a campaign of individual house ownership, something which until the 1980's was unheard of, most people were happy renting. Given the costs, why did she pursue such a policy?

    Thatcher knew that a man with the chain of mortgage debt around his neck was less likely to go on strike. And now 25 years of this policy has meant that low income families who ordinarily would have been content to rent, now think they have to buy themselves a house, enticed with low lending rates in the good times (though with most council housing sold off, for a while mortgages were cheaper than renting from the private sector).

    We also have less money in our economy because we import so much of our energy. Again this is the fault of Thatcher. Privatisation of British gas meant the newly formed company seeked easy ways for a quick profit. This meant exporting gas to Europe - great idea for share holders who want nice dividends, except now there is almost no gas left, and we now have to import via the Norwegian pipeline. With the focus on profits, no energy company is going to care about long term energy security. Recall also, in feb 2007, gas wholesale prices were 75% down on the proceeding year - the "market" response - a mere drop of 17% to consumers, which took a long time coming, and didn't last long until the hikes started again, thanks to the Norwegian suppliers linking of gas price to oil price, because according to them "oil is an indicator of the true value of energy".

    Thankyou Mrs Thatcher for screwing this country over good and proper. We shall forever be trying to fix it for years to come, thanks to the wholesale adoption of your policies by "New Labour".

    Report on 25 August 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • DIYJames
    Love rating 0
    DIYJames said

    Browns Britain (The Golden Chancellor / PM)
    1] Mammoth increase in people doing red tape jobs and those doing non-wealth creating jobs
    2] Mammoth increase in government debt
    3] Families encourage to shop till they dropped (wow -- 'look how strong the British economy is')

    Result: Rapidly rising house prices = people constantly re-mortgaging their houses = free money (all tax free -- families could easily earn more out of their house than their job) = more and more cheap goods bought from China = low inflation etc etc

    As soon as house prices stopped going up the whole lot was guaranteed to fall to bits.

    Report on 25 August 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • everybear
    Love rating 0
    everybear said

    Mr Blair and Mr Brown, of course. They purposefully encouraged debt and did nothing about inflation making saving impossible as prices for basics living rises and little luxuries rise beyond peoples' means. They also encouraged buy to let and immigration which has inflated house prices so that people had to borrow so much just to own a home. They caused the increasing discrepancy between the rich and the rest of us who work for our living. They did nothing to overturn the worst excess of Mrs Thater (selling our water and energy supply) This is why the credit crunch now it has come (inevitably) hurts so badly. They promised to get rid of boom and bust but they have not.

    I would like to meet the Economy as this seems to be the only thing they care about. Ordinary people are treated like resources in a company not like citizens in a Country.

    Report on 26 August 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • rowlystravel
    Love rating 27
    rowlystravel said

    FI's are responsible for stealth debts, such as ridiculous redemption charges which add thousands each time someone needs to remortgage or switch providers, they are also responsilbe for the hurrendous debt that single premium insurance inflicts on people. However, the people responsible are ultimately the customers who were too spend thrifty with their money.

    An important thing to note now though, is that the banks ARE responsible for the current economic slowdown by being too cautious and charging much more at a time when people are finding it difficult in order to ''price out the riff raff' rather than change their procedures to do this, they are pricing for so called 'risk'. This they can help with but they wont, and this is greed, nothing more, nothing less

    Report on 27 August 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • bimber
    Love rating 44
    bimber said

    @rowleystravel

    We can help this situation by taking our money out of high-interest savings accounts and putting it into banks which charge lower mortgage rates and pay less interest.

    Whan I say We I really mean You, because I personally think the "so called risk" is not imaginary.

    Report on 30 August 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • rowlystravel
    Love rating 27
    rowlystravel said

    perssonally i think we should show banks how much they rely on people and withdraw money from them completely. We should be able to force employers to pay people cash too or with the method of choice rather than BACS which requires a bank account... this is the reason so many people have bank accounts to begin with. its extreme, but the banks have forgotten we are customers not formalities..

    the risk is there, but they used credit scores, which they now basically ignore and use more heavily the LTV.. How would LTV be of relevance to me where i have not missed a mortgage payment in 3 years but the LTV has changed? how does this reflect me as a risk? just because my house value fluctuates i have to pay a higher rate? when my house proce was rocketing and the risk lowered i didnt see them offereing me a lower rate?!?!

    Banks want their cake and they want to eat it, and worse, they want to invite my family around for tea and eat it in front of us with it all over their dirty little faces ;)

    Report on 02 September 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • NK104
    Love rating 0
    NK104 said

    What was wrong with imprisonment for debt anyway? OK, that's a mite strong as a punishment, but being bankrupt - and not being able to live up to the promises you have made should have stigma attached.

    The problem is that many people increasingly see credit, and the consequent ability to live permanently beyond their means, as a right. The second their earnings capacity is impaired they look round for someone else to blame. Look in the mirror - whether you're 18 (and legally adult) or 58.

    Report on 02 September 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Ihatebullies2
    Love rating 0
    Ihatebullies2 said

    We have all forgotten that the blame is our entire sheeplike passive acceptance of the Gods of Greed and Competition and that Money and Assets equal Power. We endlessly yearn that to be at the top is best, including to produce higher and higher profit percentages endlessly, year after year.
    We push and prod and programme our Children, through School and College, endlessly to aim for nothing less than to arrive at the Top.
    Is it any wonder that less academic Children with a sadistic bullying streak create violent and criminal gangs? That the less than adequate at School, the Loser, can at last be Top Dog, toting knives and guns and trading drugs?
    With no checks or balances.
    Prior to the Thatcher truly 'Con' government of the 1980s, people, businesses and Government were generally relatively content to bubble happily along, with small percentage increases. Released from the poverty and degradations of the 2nd World War and the post War years.
    When businesses produced obscenely large percentage increased profits, they were met immediately with Government windfall taxes.
    There had been a boom and bust with sudden high oil price increases in the early 1970s, coupled then, as now, with greedy property speculation, as that is what many of our buy-to-let speculators have done now.
    Since the 1980s and the Con of the 50% discount sale of Council houses, the very roofs over most peoples’ heads, with little return and no national investment to replace that most precious national asset of a place to live for every family in the Country. Alluded to more precisely above. Then the 1980s Con sale of our Nation’s family silver our Water and oil and gas reserves.
    For what? To pursue the Con dream of dog eat dog, only the fit shall survive.
    Then, when you fell ill, or lost your job and your home and there was no replacement, the Thatcher mantra, was to get yourself an umbrella, get on your camel, go find the promised land, whilst Thatcher flogged your camel from beneath you to the highest foreign bidder.
    What chance did the majority of sheep have?
    It is not just the UK, many other countries pursuing these false Gods, demonstrated by the 1980s UK Govt are similarly collapsing. The Banks and Financial Institutions Managements, Boards and Directors, in their greed for ever higher profits and kudos, on the money markets, have paid ever higher bonuses, salaries and pensions, for managing to offload huge amounts of debt onto unsuspecting and financially uneducated individuals. The Banks and Financials, hiding their financial incompetence and imprudence by the use of sophisticated top University educated financial Spin Doctors and PR persons tricks and games.
    With this pretence and web of frankly lies, these Business Leaders, placed God-like on pedestals, we were and still are, coached to follow and attempt to emulate. These icons of our country and our world have managed for a considerable number of years, to pull the wool over the eyes of those who have fascinatingly watched and reported and spoken in glowing terms of these wonder businesses and the people who run them.
    Yet there is only so much cake to go around and these greedy entirely selfish and self-centred Business Leaders, have been busily gobbling the centre, whilst Governments, with their financially incompetent Ministers and Civil Servants, mesmerised, have naively accepted the reduced taxation take condescendingly doled out to them by these pillars of Society.
    Thus taxing the innocent tax paying employee Joe and Jean Public, with more widespread taxes, to make up the shortfalls from increasingly cleverly reduced business taxes. In order to pursue and effect, the promised care and consideration programmes before all Government Elections.
    Businesses did not like the windfall taxes, they had so richly deserved. They bullied and threatened to leave the UK or other Windfall taxing centres, to move elsewhere.
    Governments held to ransom, not wishing to impoverish their countries, nor to lose power at elections, stupidly took the promised bribes, the tainted shilling of continued establishment and allowed this rampantly disgraceful behaviour to flourish.
    In China now, fuel price rises have been capped; In the US, inflationary price rises or gouging as it is called in Florida, following the recent increasingly regular hurricane disasters, are prohibited and rapidly stopped with huge fines imposed upon the perpetrators.
    Here in the UK, we slowly finally realising and recognising the damage having been wreaked, are belatedly going to try to paper over some of the cracks.
    It is too little and too late for many people who have lost everything, in many cases through no fault of their own.
    Bold and drastic steps must be taken, if possible by united Governments across the world, to stop this bullying and legalised theft, for what has gone on for many years is little better.
    Many of you reading this will contort with rage at the thought of losing your cosy self-serving, selfish lifestyles. Yes worked hard for and often climbed the ladder but at what cost to those around you, whom you have stepped on in your self-gratification and for what?
    There are no pockets in shrouds, you too will one day be no more than the dust and ashes of the lives of those people you have, perhaps inadvertently, prematurely extinguished by your selfish greed.
    In the old days it was called slavery where the master took the spoils, having enslaved those captured, not strong enough to fight for freedom.
    Just remember, from Shakespeare about the quality of mercy being not strained, dropping from the place above to the place beneath and being twice blessed, blessing him that gives and him that takes.
    Have some compassion for those not quite as smart as you think you are, because pride cometh before a fall and fall you will just as those people did before you.
    We must all learn to give and take, not simply to take and take and we must all learn to live and work together and to share the wealth of our world, with all living creatures.
    As a whole, that is how we will survive and if we - including you - the ones apparently programmed solely for greed, as our education and social systems appear tilted towards, fail to learn this lesson, we will not survive.
    And you will not survive ultimately either.
    I offer my apologies to those whose quotations I may have misquoted, as I am no great philosopher, scholar or thinker, having left my Convent School at the tender age of about 13 and a half years. And I know my grammar is awful.
    Just stop and consider the damage you are inflicting on others around you, with your greedy, selfish, predatory behaviour.
    Have we not evolved throughout these millennia to any higher intelligence, than that of our most dangerous, wild animals?

    Report on 03 September 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Feline1004
    Love rating 0
    Feline1004 said

    The person to blame is the person themselves. I am heavily in personal debt and I know it is my own making but what I now find is the banks who were so keen to lend me money are now no longer interested in me now that I am paying off my debts and no longer live off credit. Every door has been slammed in my face and I have to 'verbally fight' with a Customer Services Advisor when a comapny attempts to put my interest rate up. I am not given any slack whatsoever and just be left alone to pay off my debts. I have not defaulted, I have not used an IVA or debt management plan. I am paying back every penny I owe plus the interest and yet I have to fight every step of the way against interest rate rises, rejection of any special deals or promotions, and I receive no support whatsoever from any company I have borrowed from. Virgin credit card recently DOUBLED my interest rate and I know for a fact it is because I no longer use my credit card and am just paying it off. I was told this in an 'off the record conversation' with a collections officer.

    Report on 06 September 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Enzyme76
    Love rating 0
    Enzyme76 said

    I blame The Fool.co.uk!
    All the tips you offer to get cheap credit extra.
    Sites like this should be banned

    Report on 08 September 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves

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