Cheaper Petrol And Gas In 2009!

Neil Faulkner
by Lovemoney Staff Neil Faulkner on 21 October 2008  |  Comments 26 comments

Perhaps oil prices will bounce back up, but it'll be impossible for exporters to maintain higher oil prices when we want to buy less. That could mean lower energy prices for all of us next year.

Everything is connected to everything else, Einstein once said. (I believe Karl Marx also said this, which is unfortunate. Colleague David Kuo* and several readers have called me a communist once or twice two often in recent years. Bah!)

That's why there's always some good news to find amongst the bad. Not only are our bank balances (and our banks) affected by the financial crisis, but so also are oil prices. As you'll have no doubt read, oil prices have tumbled dramatically over the past few months from a high around $150 a barrel to $70 per barrel. Extraordinary.

A bounce for oil prices?

Prices might bounce back up, particularly with the Organisation of the Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC) looking to reduce the number of barrels of oil it produces. As there will be less oil to buy, the price should receive a boost.

Furthermore, our Government and perhaps some others seem to want to borrow yet more money to spend on boosting our economies. This might cause the oil price to rise too, temporarily, because with more money in the economy we'll have more to spend on oil. We've seen this happen in very recent history. Just last September, when the US announced a huge financial bailout, oil prices rose by a record $16 in one day to around $125.

Would an oil-price bounce last?

However, since that one-day in September, oil prices have again fallen, as I said, to around $70. The effect of the US government's announcement was short-lived.

As for OPEC controlling prices, the thing is that some of these oil-producing countries need to sell lots of oil at high prices to balance their budgets. If they cut production too far they'll be selling at a higher price, but they won't be selling enough. I'd imagine that could cause divisions at next week's OPEC meeting.

With prices having fallen, some funds (called hedge funds) that have been buying oil in the belief that prices will rise and they can sell at a profit, have probably already sold. This will have impacted the oil price already. However, it's likely that yet more hedge funds will call it quits, too. As they sell more and more, this could further reduce the price of oil. The size of the effect depends on how much oil they have bought and how much they sell in the next months.

It's all because we're spending less

I'm no oil expert, so I can't predict what OPEC will do, nor can I guess how much oil hedge funds have bought, or how much they'll sell. However, this is not so important. The most important factor right now is that, for the next year or three, the world is going to buy less stuff.

I'm sure you're all aware that none of us have much spare money right now, so we consumers are already buying less petrol. What's more, we'll be buying less in the shops. This means shops will sell less stuff. If they sell less, then they'll buy fewer materials too, including petrol for transport. If both companies and people are buying less petrol, the price of oil will naturally come down.

So the oil price could stay closer to $70 rather than $150 over the next couple of years.

What could that mean for us?

In the next few weeks we should see petrol come down further in price, led by the supermarkets.

Gas prices are linked to the price of oil. This link is increasingly less relevant, so it's likely that gas exporters will want to disconnect it further if oil prices keep falling as we expect. In the meantime though, we should see falls filter through to our utility bills in around six months. Not in time for winter, but a reduction nevertheless. Hooray!

Sadly, electricity always lags several months even further behind. What's more, we still haven't had an increase as a result of the high oil prices earlier this year. Therefore we could well see electricity prices rise before we see them fall again.

What do I think of capped energy tariffs now?

I've voiced my scepticism about capped tariffs several times this year. The initial, higher price that you pay might easily offset any gains you make in the future if oil prices rise. I'd certainly say that right now you should think even harder before getting a capped tariff. 

These are just for people who not only can afford the higher initial cost, but also need the certainty that the price won't rise higher. Most people would be better off getting the cheapest variable tariff they can find.

*Compared to David, everyone is a communist.

> Develop the revolution, improve production and labour, get ready for war, and do every aspect of work well. If that doesn't suit you comrade, compare gas and electricity prices, and switch.

More: Energy Companies Blocking Price Comparison

Enjoyed this? Show it some love

Twitter
General

Comments (26)

  • tizhimi
    Love rating 0
    tizhimi said

    Huzzah!

    Petrol at Morrisions near me is now only a mere 97.9p

    Positive bargain(!)

    I don't feel as guilty for popping the heating on now either.

    Report on 21 October 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • chrisall
    Love rating 0
    chrisall said

    Gas prices are linked to the price of oil. This link is increasingly less relevant, so it’s likely that gas exporters will want to disconnect it further if oil prices keep falling as we expect

    They aren't so keen to 'disconnect' the relationship between oil prices and the price they charge us for their gas when the oil price is rising though!

    And as for capped tariffs - BG are currently advertising how they have the longest cap available, funny how they announced that the day after they put their prices up 40%

    Cheers,
    Chrisall

    Report on 21 October 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Hallucigenia
    Love rating 0
    Hallucigenia said

    "I’m no oil expert"

    Hmm - so why should we listen to a word you say in this article? :-)

    Especially since we have not one but two boards on TMF devoted to nothing but the oil price!!! Wouldn't it make sense to either talk to some of the people there or invite one of them to write about the oil price?

    http://boards.fool.co.uk/Messages.asp?bid=51585
    http://boards.fool.co.uk/Messages.asp?bid=51674

    As an aside, gas in the UK is probably less correlated to the oil price than almost any other country. The other day it briefly touched 0p/therm in the warm weather. I don't recall oil prices hitting $0/barrel at the same time!!

    Looking ahead, Mr Market reckons January gas for the next two years will be holding steady around 75-80p/therm, which very roughly corresponds to $75-80/barrel equivalent (depends a bit on the $/£ rate).

    Report on 22 October 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • LateDeveloper
    Love rating 22
    LateDeveloper said

    Petrol prices are a sham, and even fairly locally to each other, places sell the petrol at inflated prices.

    Take Tesco as an instance, there is a 6p / litre positive discrepancy between stores locally to Tesco stores just 8 miles away.

    I suspect energy prices may only vary by small amounts, but have clauses built in by now, that will make swapping suppliers ever harder.

    Report on 22 October 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • MrPound
    Love rating 11
    MrPound said

    Add to this that currently there are several major UK power stations off line that have been down since April, resulting in companies having to buy more expensive energy to keep us supplied. These are expected to come back on line in the new year, and if we have a mild winter (as is predicted at the moment) then prices of both gas and electricity SHOULD come down in Q1 2009. However in this un-regulated market the energy companies can do what they want, so as we have seen with the oil companies recently, prices are unlikely to come down quickly, and certainly not by the 40% figures they went up by.
    I would agree, capping at this time is likley to tie you in to more expensive energy in the medium term.

    Report on 22 October 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Ofolaller
    Love rating 0
    Ofolaller said

    .

    What I'd like to know is when are retailers going to cut the prices of bread and all the other wheat-based products (that shot up in price ("because of the rising cost of wheat") now that the cost of wheat has dropped just as dramatically as oil over the past few weeks.

    .

    Report on 22 October 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • macca160670
    Love rating 0
    macca160670 said

    Its good to see petrol prices coming down, however the price isnt the problem its all the tax we pay that makes it so high!!! Maybe Gord needs to take a look at this instead of the petrol garages which are almost extinct.

    As for gas and elec I refuse to fix my prices regardless of what some people advise, why give them even more profits!! I just try to use less which I guess is one way of reducing my bill. I just switched to click 5 with british gas to now find out that the price of that has rose so click 6 is cheaper, what I'd like to know is why wasn't I even told it had gone up. Just goes to show how little they regard us customers and just how badly they are regulated.

    Report on 22 October 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Hywel777
    Love rating 0
    Hywel777 said

    Bah! I was hoping that the fuel crisis would lead to situaution in the 'Mad Max' movies..!!

    Report on 22 October 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • roderickeaton
    Love rating 0
    roderickeaton said

    As far as electricity production in the UK is concerned, we do not actually generate much from oil. Most of our electricity comes from Coal, Gas and Nuclear Power. Oil is used to peak lop covering outages and will be needed more to cover windlessness if the fascination with windmills increases.

    It is also important to remember the additional costs of renewable energy (the so-called Green Obligation imposed by government). Windmills and biomass are many times more expensive to build than combined cycle gas power plant. Research into low carbon emmisssion coal plant is also expensive as will be a plant if one is ever built. Nuclear power is likely the best option especially if the paranoid anti-carbon emission lobby prevails over logic (less than 0.3% of the Greenhouse effect being from human emissions, excluding breathing).

    I sincerely hope that oil prices do continue to fall, to reduce our motoring and goods/materials transport costs. However, there is a danger that OPEC reactions will be to make up their losses from reduced quantity from world recession with price increases per barrel longer term. We are a captive market.

    The odd thing is that it is not so long ago we were fearful of petrol prices increasing towards the £1 per litre mark; now we see anything below £1 per litre as 'good'. In reality of course most of the petrol cost in the UK is TAX. Mentioning our $9 per US gallon in America seems, to our trans-Atlantic friends, an astronomical price. We just suffer taxes here on any old pretext.

    Report on 22 October 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • meagherp
    Love rating 0
    meagherp said

    Just in france again(22Oct) and the diesel price is now down to 1.109 euro (from 1.40Euro at the peak) in carrefour. Now this is 86.6 p UK a litre- why are we being ripped off as usual in the UK? I know that 6 years ago in france it was 0.99 euro a litre(cheapest Elf in Nice) so the price has increased 10% in france in 6 years. UK?? 30% at least. Rip off britain is alive and well.

    Report on 22 October 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • blueboy56
    Love rating 0
    blueboy56 said

    with reports that oil/petrol demand across Europe has fallen by 25% in the last few months it makes sense for the price to reflect the market. If the usage continues to fall as is expected with the recession - then who gives a damn what OPEC does because you will all be fighting for a smaller market and will be cutting each others throats for it- especially as we have the supermarkets leading the way. In addition the energy companies will also have to follow in the same footsteps, as the petrol companies, as it will be only a matter of time before we see Tesco Electricity or Asda Gas. Oil and Energy companies - you have been warned, act soon or follow in the footsteps of Elf and Chevron - bust!!!!!

    Report on 22 October 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Perry525
    Love rating 25
    Perry525 said

    The Milford Haven to Aberdulais and Tilney pipelines are supposed to provide 20% of the UK natural gas.
    The pipeline to Aberdulais is complete and full of high pressure gas, the one to Tilney is complete.
    At the time the pipeline and the two gas terminals
    were built there was a great fuss, lots of people
    were upset - and now they lay idle.
    We expected these new pipelines to bring gas from
    Algeria that will reduce the price of gas to the consumers.
    Does anyone know whats happenend?

    Report on 22 October 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • RocketSteve
    Love rating 30
    RocketSteve said

    Last time all this hoo-har happened over oil was in the '70's and everyone started to jump on the renewables bandwagon. Oil returned to normality and that was that. Now it's all back but I just hope that the oil companies/cartels suffer because it's not just the price but the alleged effects of oil that may continue the momentum of humans living within the means of the planet's resources.
    But not forgetting that if everyone started using wind, solar, geo etc. locally to generate hydrogen to heat and use in their vehicles, where's Gordo's taxes going to come from? That's why the >£50 to construct wind turbine in B&Q costs £1300!

    Report on 22 October 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • jamesunsen
    Love rating 0
    jamesunsen said

    Oil has gone down by over 50%
    Diesel has gone down by 11%

    wheres the logic?

    RIP off Britain?
    Cool Britania.

    Report on 22 October 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • TMFVertigo
    Love rating 0
    TMFVertigo said

    Thanks for all your comments. Wonderful.

    Hallucigenia, I welcome your extra information. If there was no recession, I would certainly have consulted an oil expert :) As I said though, it's clearly a recession that'll have the most control over prices now, rather than factors that are specific to the oil industry.

    Neil (the author)

    Report on 22 October 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • fooldiver1
    Love rating 0
    fooldiver1 said

    Does out mickey-mouse government think that everyone is stupid? Rip-off taxes on road fuel are the main reason for the high prices, not the cost of oil. MP's milking their expenses and voting on their own pensions along with greedy market traders with 6 figure bonuses have destroyed the economy and yet the overtaxed public has to bail them all out while the ministers continue take their high salaries. The only future for those that can afford it is to bail out altogether from the UK to a country that is not as corrupt.

    Report on 22 October 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • chaz25
    Love rating 0
    chaz25 said

    It seems that I am not allowed to make any comments regarding the quality or energy content or quantity of energy/ fuel provided against that shown as 'metered' as this could constitute a libellous comment on a public web site (even where the fuel or energy supplier is in no wise mentioned!).

    I therefore ask rhetorically

    1. Do you seem to get the quantity of fuel indicated at the pump, espescially in regard to Diesel?

    2. If you don't do, you get any positive response
    and outcome, either by complaining direct or complaining to Trading Standards?

    3. Do you seem to get much lower miles per gallon than you used to especially with a Diesel engine, or even with a petrol engine?

    4. Does your kettle seem to take longer to boil on a gas stove? Does your central heating seem to operate at a lower temperature for a given setting?

    I post the simple observation that electricity is expensive because it can't be 'fiddled or messed around with'!

    Report on 22 October 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • roderickeaton
    Love rating 0
    roderickeaton said

    I agree with TMFVertigo, some really good comments have been made. One thing I wonder though is how sensitive motor fuel sold really is to average price. Of course where there is a choice, most will buy the cheapest but when average price increases, do we really buy less?

    Our 'glorious' government has kept the tax pressure on motor fuels but there appear to be more cars on the road than ever. I think it's time that government learned that we are not going to give up our cars and gave us all a break. Would the exchequer be depleted if we all rode pedal cycles and Rickshaws...no they wouldn't, they'd introduce a tax on exhaled carbon emissions from cyclists to keep up the 'Green Hobgoblin Myth and, of course, their income.

    Global average temperature has remained static for a decade despite the tremendous rise in GHG emissions from China and India. The UK's tiny 2% of world GHG emissions remains insignificant. Government can hike taxes and attempt to drive our lifetyles back to the middle ages whilst the developing countries wallow in their new found wealth using all the fossil fuels they like.

    Kyoto is a costly exercise for the Western economies and has only a marginal effect on the rapidly increasing fossil fuel fired industry of the developing nations. Kyoto and green taxes we are setting us on course for self-induced economic and lifestyle disaster!!

    Report on 22 October 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Hallucigenia
    Love rating 0
    Hallucigenia said

    As I said though, it's clearly a recession that'll have the most control over prices now, rather than factors that are specific to the oil industry.


    If you had a bit more knowledge of the oil industry, you wouldn't be quite so confident in saying that. ;-/ Oil consumption is a lot less sensitive to changes in GDP than you might think - one of my favourite factoids is that the UK used more oil in 1967 than it did in 2007. However GDP is rather greater now.... Obviously a few things have changed since then - we're now consuming a lot more gas, and we've "outsourced" a lot of energy consumption to other countries - we'll import energy in the form of aluminium bars rather than smelting our own for instance. But global oil consumption is surprisingly robust to recessions - for instance, it kept growing through the early 1990s, apart from a trivial 0.14 million barrels (0.2%) decline in 1993. See the BP Statistical Review of World Energy for more on this stuff - it's on the BP website, you can Google it. The only meaninglful reduction in oil demand - about 10% - was in the big recession of the early 1980s, and even then it could be argued that the biggest single reason on that was oil-industry-specific effects causing the price to soar, rather than a wider drop in demand. At the moment, I think the biggest single factor in the medium-term oil price is Iran, rather than the recession.

    See, it's not as "obvious" as you might think. :-)) Common sense is no substitute for the facts, however awkward they may be....

    On a few other points that have been raised :

    roderickeaton - Cost of renewables is starting to be competitive at current prices - the likes of wind and wave are all up-front cost so they depend a lot on interest rates - on the other hand you shouldn't be looking at gas prices today to compare the viability of CCGT, but what gas prices will be in 2020 or 2030. Quite agree that we need a lot more nuclear though as well.

    On the elasticity of demand - it seems to have been surprisingly robust up to about $90 or so, but above that and you did see significant reductions in demand. We've discussed it a bit on OGMT, see eg this thread :
    http://boards.fool.co.uk/Message.asp?mid=11204444&sort=w...

    If you look at http://www.uktradeinfo.com/index.cfm?task=bulloil , UK demand for mineral oils was down 9.4% yoy in September, although a chunk of that comes from increasing supplies of biodiesel and to a lesser extent ethanol, total demand for "oil" was down 7.7% yoy. In oil demand terms, the only years that the UK has seen greater reductions in demand were 1975, 1980 and 1985 according to BP, although 1974 and 1981 saw just under 7% reduction - no other years come close apart from them. Did GDP collapse in 1985 Neil? ;-/

    meagherp :
    Just in france again(22Oct) and the diesel price is now down to 1.109 euro (from 1.40Euro at the peak) in carrefour. Now this is 86.6 p UK a litre- why are we being ripped off as usual in the UK?
    jamesunsen :
    Oil has gone down by over 50% Diesel has gone down by 11% wheres the logic?

    The logic is all in the fact that the oil price isn't the single biggest determinant of the price of diesel - tax is. So the reason for the "ripoff" lies firmly at the doors of the government - you'll note that they are planning to put another 2p/litre on the tax. The current government has also made about £75bn from taxes on North Sea oil.

    Perry525 mentioned the pipelines from the liquiefied natural gas (LNG) receiving stations at Milford Haven. From memory, I don't think either of them are quite finished yet (ditto the sources of supply in Qatar and the like) - but even if they were, no LNG ships would come to Milford Haven because gas prices in the UK are too low!!! LNG isn't really for "continuous" supply, it's more about topping up supplies at local peaks during the year wherever it's needed in the world. The LNG owners can sell gas for around $80 oil equivalent in Asia, so why should they send their ships here in summer when they might receive the equivalent of only $30 oil? OTOH, in winter they might be able to sell their gas for $100 - a few years ago prices touched $250 equivalent on one day during a cold snap.

    Report on 22 October 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • roderickeaton
    Love rating 0
    roderickeaton said

    Hallucigenia . You raise some valid points. However, on the price of renewables: an average CCGT plant is around £295 per kw installed compared with wind at £1,250 to £2,500 per kw installed depending if it is on or off shore. Biomass plant is upward of £2,000 per kw installed.

    One point to note with wind turbines is that they have to be covered by OCGT ditillate oil plant or heavy fossil fuel plant (running inefficiently as spare) to hold up system stability when the wind speed is outside the safe operating envelope. The Irish found this out to their cost after the system operations manager warned of likely instabilty with too much wind power. The Irish government finally placed a moritorium on wind-power. I do not beleieve that NGC will let that happen in the UK but wind is not a very consistent renewable. Portugal had similar problems with its vast hydro power tranche of plant during a long hot summer.

    The most reliable power systems have a prudent mix of energy sources. Nuclear as you rightly say needs to play a bigger role. 'Waste to energy' plant also provides a consistent production regime but most plants are small. The largest to my knowledge in the UK is Belvedere at 70 MWs.

    Our largest single energy producer is Drax which is coal-fired (1,960 MWs). The three coal fired power stations comprising the 'Northern Power Island' produce a total of around 8,000 MWs. The 'Southern Power Island' at Didcot in Oxfordshire is over 3,300 MWs from a mix of gas and cosl fired plant.

    The main issue is really if man-made climate change theory can be relied on or not. A growing number of climatologists are very sceptical of the anthropogenic theory, citing natural causes (mainly natural changes in the most predominant GHG, water vapour). The IPCC climate models are, to say the least, proving unreliable in predicting climate change. This was prediced by Drs Broekcer and Singer some time ago. Physicist, Freeman Dyson also raised grave doubts on the climate models. Dr Tennyson of UCL also indicates that water vapour is not given the attention it deserves in climate predictions.

    The IPCC hockey stick curve was so scientifically challenged that it was dropped from the latest IPCC report, having been the lynchpin of the dubious MMCC theory brotherhood for twenty years.

    To totally forego our natural coal resources for a poor theory is to my mind unnecessarily oostly, risky and frankly unacceptable. I accept that there is ongoing research into carbon dioxide capture but this up-front cost will make 'clean' coal plant incredibly expensive to build. More importantly, is it really necessary?

    Report on 22 October 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • teachingchris55
    Love rating 0
    teachingchris55 said

    It is clear that the prices of petrol are falling across the country but I have seen no mention yet about any potential reduction in price of heating oil. For those such as myself, the cost of heating our homes with oil has become prohibitive over the last 12 months or so. Does anyone know if this is set to continue or will the cost of heating oil now begin to come down in line with petrol prices?

    Report on 23 October 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Hallucigenia
    Love rating 0
    Hallucigenia said

    However, on the price of renewables: an average CCGT plant is around £295 per kw installed

    The capex isn't so important, is it though? What really matters is your price per MWh, and the sensitivity of that price to outside influences. For instance, the average price bid for wind in NFFO5 was £28.80/MWh - so presumably people thought they would be profitable at that level - I've seen estimates that CCGT costs £45/MWh at 53p/therm gas. However Mr Market thinks that the average gas price will be 68p/therm over the next year - so what's the price/MWh going to be in that case? More importantly, if you're building new CCGTs, you have to worry about the gas price over their whole life - will Gazprom be charging a mere 68p/therm in 2043? Same with coal - BERR are assuming coal prices of £25/ton, currently UK Coal are selling for over £65/ton. What will the coal price be in 2040?

    Note that I'm not saying all wind will cost £28.80/MWh - the best sites are being used up faster than new technology is bringing down prices, current costs seem to be in the £35-40/MWh range. But as per above, that's certainly competitive with "vanilla" CCGT these days. And that's before you get onto the security of supply issue with natural gas or coal.

    One point to note with wind turbines is that they have to be covered by OCGT ditillate oil plant or heavy fossil fuel plant (running inefficiently as spare) to hold up system stability when the wind speed is outside the safe operating envelope.

    Well - ish. Up to 10% of the mix and you don't need duplication. And some renewable technologies such as wave are rather more predictable than wind, also if you're doing them on a big enough scale (ie bigger than Ireland) you get more evening out. You might want to look up Shimon Awerbuch's work applying modern portfolio theory to generation mix, he comes up with the slightly counter-intuitive proposal that even irregular renewables that are more expensive than other forms of generation, actually reduce the risk and cost/MWh of a generation mix.

    The main issue is really if man-made climate change theory can be relied on or not. A growing number of climatologists are very sceptical of the anthropogenic theory

    Hmm - think it's a declining number actually. The hockey stick thing is a bit of a straw man, as you say the IPCC think that they can make a compelling case for anthropogenic climate change without any reference to the hockey stick. And the models are actually getting quite close to reality - I'd suggest that the onus is on the "business as usual" people to create realistic models that show no change to the climate from pumping large volumes of known greenhouse gases into the atmosphere. Anyway, more discussion on that front would be better off on the Climate Change board :

    http://boards.fool.co.uk/Messages.asp?bid=51649

    And to be honest, since I don't come here often, I think this will probably be my last contribution to this thread - I suggest further discussion happens over on boards such as :

    Renewables : http://boards.fool.co.uk/Messages.asp?bid=51303
    Oil & Gas Markets & Trends : http://boards.fool.co.uk/Messages.asp?bid=51585

    Report on 23 October 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Hallucigenia
    Love rating 0
    Hallucigenia said

    the cost of heating our homes with oil has become prohibitive over the last 12 months or so.

    Well the price of oil (and heating oil) is now roughly where it was a year ago. So in principle, retail prices should go back to where they were a year ago. However I suspect that prices a year ago were "lagging" a bit, so I'd expect that they'd be a bit higher than a year ago - but in such a volatile market it pays to shop around.

    Report on 23 October 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • roderickeaton
    Love rating 0
    roderickeaton said

    On the IPCC Climate Models: if the models are getting so close to reality, why did they fail to predict the current static GAT over the past decade (ref Prof Carter, JC University, Quennsland and even the Met Office disciples)? Why did the hot spots at tropical latitudes, a signature of all IPCC climate models, fail to materialise (ref Douglass et al published in the Journal of Climatology, RMS, 2007).

    If you believe that fewer science and technology based professionals oppose man-made climate change theory, then why did only 4,000 sign the original Oregon Petition but 31,000 (including 9,000 with doctorates)sign the latest Oregon petition?

    Food for thought along with Drs Broeker and Singer who show that the proportionally tiny effect that anthropogenic emissions have on greenhouse could not possibly drive the global climatic system. There are far more viable theories relating to natural causes. A number of NRSP members are IPCC Expert Reviewers. It is well worth looking at the work of the Non-governmental Panel on Climate Change (SEPP and NRS based)along with the book published earlier this year 'An Appeal to Reason' by Lord Lawson.

    One has to remember that the TOR of the IPCC were never to 'investigate probable cause' of Climate Change, merely to sustain the MMCC theory, demonstrate consequences and thus discard any natural theory evidence presented.

    On the comparison of projected lifetime costs of sustainable coal and gas vs so called renewables, the money we part with today is what really will cost us dearly before any longer term benefits can ease the pain. However, I agree that up to 10% windpower is not a problem as long as we do not see that as the panacea. The NGC shows around this sort of figure coming on-stream in the medium to long term. We do not have the topography or climate to sustain much more hydro power so wind is not going to meet the energy gap. Nuclear is of course a prudent answer as you suggested. I don't see wave power on the table at all in the current build commitments for NGC.

    With the UK only contributing 2% to world greenhosue emissions, it is futile to think we could alter climate anyway with the vast increases in fossil fuelled plant in China and India. If you add up the amount of renewable energy that we in the OECD countries will provide through Kyoto/Carbon Trading (UN IPCC CDMs), it will provide no more than a reduction equivalent to about 10 to 15% of the UK's emissions but we are paying dearly for yet another futile exercise in this 'King Canute' mythology of averting climate change.

    Report on 23 October 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • geraldrbridges
    Love rating 0
    geraldrbridges said

    REgarding petrol prices at our local sainsburys tonbridge it is 96 a litre, but for how long one must wonder!

    Report on 24 October 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Brian460
    Love rating 0
    Brian460 said

    Like most people, I'm happy to see the reduction in crude oil prices and the corresponding decrease in fuel prices at the pump.

    However, I was always cynical when the crude oil price doubled within 12 months, coincidentally this happended at the time that the US (and the UK) property bubble burst, and a great amount of money was chasing the next 'get rich quick' bubble. I'm sure a lot of traders / investers in oil companies made a few quid out of this 'mini bubble'.

    I don't profess to be being any kind of economic expert, however, I've heard and read so much rubbish about the state and direction of various markets since the inception of the credit crunch, that a little common sense and logic can dispel most media stories as headline grabbing sensationalism.

    With regard to oil prices, the only question I still have is - Are we being ripped off for diesel in the UK. 2 years ago when unleaded was a similar price, diesel typically cost 2p/litre more, now it's 12p. Whilst I appreciate that a greater proportion of cars sales have been diesel rather than petrol in recent times, thus adjusting supply/demand requirements for both types of fuels, is an extra 10p differential truly representative of the actual pump cost, especially as there is no difference in taxation ???

    Report on 26 October 2008  |  Love thisLove  0 loves

Post a comment

Sign in or register to post a reply.

Our top deals

Credit card
company
Balance transfers rate and period Representative
APR
Apply
now

Barclaycard 27Mth Platinum Visa

0% for 27 months (3.5% fee) Representative 18.9% APR (variable) Apply
Representative example: assumed borrowing of £1,200, representative 18.9% APR (variable). Purchase rate 18.9% PA (variable). BT fee is reduced from 3.9% to 3.5% (T&Cs apply).

NatWest Platinum MasterCard

0% for 26 months (2.65% fee) Representative 18.9% APR (variable) Apply
Representative example: assumed borrowing of £1,200, representative 18.9% APR (variable). Purchase rate 18.95% PA (variable).

Royal Bank of Scotland Platinum MasterCard

0% for 26 months (2.65% fee) Representative 18.9% APR (variable) Apply
Representative example: assumed borrowing of £1,200, representative 18.9% APR (variable). Purchase rate 18.95% PA (variable).
W3C  Thank you for using CGWEBLIV3