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How I'm voting in the referendum, part 2

Ed Bowsher
by Lovemoney Staff Ed Bowsher on 02 May 2011  |  Comments 53 comments

Read how Ed Bowsher plans to vote in the referendum.

How I'm voting in the referendum, part 2

In part one, I explained how the Alternative Vote (AV) works. Now I’m going to explain why I’m going to vote ‘yes.’

AV isn’t a perfect system but I think it’s a lot better than the current set-up. That’s because it makes it easier for voters to express their view and vote ‘honestly.’ It also encourages politicians to reach out and broaden their appeal.

An honest vote

Let’s imagine that you’re strongly opposed to UK membership of the EU. You’ve supported the Tories in the past but you think that David Cameron has failed to stand up for Britain’s interests in Brussels.

As a result, you’re now very tempted to vote for UKIP under first-past-the-post. However, the danger is that a vote for UKIP could prove to be a ‘wasted vote.’  If you lived in a Tory/Lib Dem marginal, your vote for UKIP could help the Lib Dems beat the Tories, and then you’d be represented by the most pro-European party in UK politics!

So you’re in a bit of a dilemma. Do you vote honestly for UKIP, your true favourite? Or do you hold your nose and vote Tory in order to keep the Lib Dems out?

If we had AV, your decision would be much easier. You could vote UKIP as your first preference, and then select the Tories as your second preference. With AV, we might find that support for UKIP was stronger than many people had realised as Eurosceptic voters could, for the first time, clearly express their true opinion whilst still doing everything they could to hurt the Lib Dems and/or Labour.

And it’s not just staunch eurosceptics who could benefit from AV. A Green supporter could put a ‘1’ by the Green candidate and then pick one of the three major parties as their second preference. In Tory/Labour marginals, Lib Dem supporters could still vote Lib Dem and then use their second preference to back Labour or Conservative.

A broader appeal

The other big plus point for AV is that MPs will no longer be elected with support from as little as 35% of the electorate. Politicians and parties will have to reach out beyond their natural bases in order to win second preferences in marginal seats.

I’m not suggesting that AV will cure all of first-past-the-post’s flaws. Under the current system, Labour doesn’t have many seats south of Watford while the Conservatives have only one MP in Scotland. I think that’s a bad thing because it means that Labour southerners and Tory Scots have very little representation in Westminster. Sadly, this will continue under AV.

I should also stress that AV isn’t proportional.  At the last general election, the Tories won 36% of the votes and 46% of seats while Labour won 29% of the votes and got 39% of the seats. We could see similar results under AV. We almost certainly won’t have elections where one party wins 36% of the votes and then gets 36% of the seats. AV will most likely produce modest changes in the number of seats won by the major parties. Nothing too dramatic. 

Let's look at some simulated election results from the Political Studies Association. (The results combined actual votes with opinion poll data for voters’ second preferences.)

1992

 

Seats actual

Seats under AV

Change

Conservative

336

328

-8

Labour

271

268

-3

Lib Dem/Alliance

20

31

+11

Others

24

24

0

Majority

21

5

-16

Under AV, the Conservatives still win but with a smaller majority.

1997

 

Seats actual

Seats under AV

Change

Conservative

165

70

-95

Labour

418

445

+27

Lib Dem/Alliance

46

115

+69

Others

30

30

0

Majority

179

231

+54

Under AV, Labour wins with an even bigger majority

2001

 

Seats actual

Seats under AV

Change

Conservative

166

140

-26

Labour

412

423

+11

Lib Dem/Alliance

52

68

+16

Others

29

29

0

Majority

165

187

+22

Under AV, Labour wins with an even bigger majority.

2005

 

Seats actual

Seats under AV

Change

Conservative

198

171

-27

Labour

355

377

+22

Lib Dem/Alliance

62

68

+6

Others

31

31

0

Majority

64

108

+44

Under AV, Labour wins with a bigger majority.

2010

 

Seats actual

Seats under AV

Change

Conservative

306

284

-22

Labour

258

248

-10

Lib Dem/Alliance

57

89

+32

Others

29

29

0

Majority

-

-

-

Under AV, there's still a hung parliament but the Lib Dems gain more seats.

You can see from these results that Tony Blair would have done even better under AV than under the current system. I think that's because AV more accurately reflects the depth of anti-Tory feeling at the time. Those results show that AV probably won't produce hung parliaments every election.

That said, the Liberal Democrats would have received modest boosts every time from AV, most importantly in 2010. 32 extra seats in 2010 could have given the Lib Dems some extra firepower in the coalition negotiations.

Theory and reality

Of course, the results of future elections may be very different from the landslides of recent times. Regardless of the electoral system, some commentators think that hung parliaments are more likely after future elections as tribal loyalty to the two major parties continues to ebb away.

What’s more, the introduction of a new electoral system may change voting behaviour somewhat. On top of that, some voters may be keen to punish the Liberal Democrats for their volte face on student fees.

On the other hand, the Lib Dems may benefit from the fact that they'll be many peoples' second choice. (Your typical Labour voter will be more likely to use their second preference for the Lib Dems than the Tories.) My best guess is that we’ll see more hung parliaments and the Lib Dems will get a modest boost from the election after next onwards. But it’s impossible to be certain.

One thing I am certain about is that the BNP won’t benefit from AV. To suggest otherwise is ridiculous. Under first-past-the-post, the BNP could squeeze through and win a seat on 30% of the vote. But if they want to win under AV, they’ll need to get support from 50% of the constituency electorate. No wonder the BNP is campaigning to retain the current system.

I’m very happy to be on the other side of the argument from the BNP. I’m aware of AV’s flaws – I’d much prefer a more proportional system such as the Single Transferable Vote.  But given the choice on the referendum ballot paper, I’ll vote for a system which gives the voter the power to do more than just pick one party. I think AV is the more democratic system and that’s why I’m backing it.

Update:  I've answered some of the points made in the comments below in a further blog post: All votes are equal!

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Comments (53)

  • LandOfConfusion
    Love rating 64
    LandOfConfusion said

    It's interesting: out of all the people I know all the intelligent ones are voting for AV. On the other hand all the, shall I say less than bright ones are either not going to vote or are unsure about what AV is or how it works and are therefore going to vote "no".

    This perceived complexity is the "no" campaign’s greatest weapon. They've used misinformation, half-truths and outright lies to confuse people, although I guess that's all they have: if they used the facts as they are then they'd have no argument.

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  • hometime hubby
    Love rating 1
    hometime hubby said

    Hmmmmm, where to start.

    So you put forward an argument at the start saying that a fault of the current system is that it isn't proportional and then show that in 1997, 2001 and 2005 would have given Labour even more disproportionately large majorites. That means in 1997 Labour would have had 43% of the vote and almost 68% of the seats, so this would have given Labour an even bigger majority. The same is true in 2001 and 2005

    Secondly the figures relating to "what would have happened under AV" are entirely speculative. How were they calculated? Was regional bias applied to the polling figures that were used to take in to account results in different regions? How accurate and what was the wording used in the opinion polls that were used. If you've ever been to Mike Smithson's political betting website you will be all too aware how a wording can sway people's answers.

    Moving on from that surely people's biggest gripe is politicians making promises before elections and then breaking them so any system which needlessly complicates the voting system and makes coalition governments where bargains are struck behind closed doors and in an entirely non-accountable way more likely means that you have less idea about what you will get when you vote for it an is more likely to increase voter apathy. First past the post is more effective at forming governments which is what democracy is about. You yourself state that it is highly likely there will be more hung parliaments which is a commonly held view.

    There seems to be a lot of argument about the cost, but there is no doubt it will cost more if ballot need to be counted multiple times. The cost of this referendum is projected to cost £90m along with £140m to be spent on new counting machines. Is this really the best way to be spending on our money when faced with a massive budget deficit?

    The general argument about safe seats (which you don't make but which is commonly used by people in favour of AV) is that problem will go away, but it won't. There are still plenty of constituencies where the sitting MP gets more than 50% of the vote so AV makes them no more accountable.

    Is it really democratic when the second or indeed third preference of a few thousand voters can outweigh the first preferences of the most significant number of voters?

    Quite frankly, no matter what arguments connected to logic you want to put forward, how is it fair that some people should have their vote counted only once and other people can have their vote counted many times?

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  • LandOfConfusion
    Love rating 64
    LandOfConfusion said

    It's interesting: out of all the people I know all the intelligent ones are voting for AV. On the other hand all the, shall I say less than bright ones are either not going to vote or are unsure about what AV is or how it works and are therefore going to vote "no".

    This perceived complexity is the "no" campaign’s greatest weapon. They've used misinformation, half-truths and outright lies to confuse people, although I guess that's all they have: if they used the facts as they are then they'd have no argument.

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  • LandOfConfusion
    Love rating 64
    LandOfConfusion said

    It's interesting: out of all the people I know all the intelligent ones are voting for AV. On the other hand all the, shall I say less than bright ones are either not going to vote or are unsure about what AV is or how it works and are therefore going to vote "no".

    This perceived complexity is the "no" campaign’s greatest weapon. They've used misinformation, half-truths and outright lies to confuse people, although I guess that's all they have: if they used the facts as they are then they'd have no argument.

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  • hometime hubby
    Love rating 1
    hometime hubby said

    Land of confusion, it seems for such an intelligent person you have made the somewhat silly error of posting multiple times.

    Oh, and if you want to use that sort of argument perhaps you would care to comment on the 29 leading Historians writing to The Times opposing AV including Niall Ferguson and David Starkey are opposed to AV. Would they count as "less than bright" as you so patronisingly put it?

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  • hometime hubby
    Love rating 1
    hometime hubby said

    While I'm having a rant, how about we look at what Australia, one of only 3 countries in the world who use AV think about it? Only 37% want to keep AV with most wanting a change to....First Past the post.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/feb/10/australia-alternative-vote-av-reform

    Interesting eh?

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  • LandOfConfusion
    Love rating 64
    LandOfConfusion said

    @ hometime hubby

    Firstly, I have had long-running problems with Lovemoney's site / aspx scripting. In fact as I type this (now in Firefox) IE still shows no messages posted... Hence why I attempted to post again, although only twice(!) so I don't know why there are so many messages.

    Oh, and it looks like I can't delete any of my multiple posts. Great.

    Secondly:

    "Would they count as "less than bright" as you so patronisingly put it?"

    I said "out of all the people I know" and as I don't know any of them personally I don't see your point. They do however come across as classic "Status Quo, change is bad" Tory supporters who's leading area of interest is in the past, not the future and so perhaps their comments aren't supprising?

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  • LandOfConfusion
    Love rating 64
    LandOfConfusion said

    "So you put forward an argument at the start saying that a fault of the current system is that it isn't proportional and then show that in 1997, 2001 and 2005 would have given Labour even more disproportionately large majorites."

    Disproportionately? AV, unlike FPTP ranks candidates in order of preference, so the candidate who the most people prefer wins. How's this “disproportionate”?

    "Secondly the figures relating to "what would have happened under AV" are entirely speculative. How were they calculated?"

    From what I understand, the same method as used to predict polls is used.

    "Moving on from that surely people's biggest gripe is politicians making promises before elections and then breaking them"

    If you win a massive majority then you can break promises knowing that in 5 years' time most people will have forgotten. If you have a coalition then there is pressure from your partner(s) to do the right thing.

    "First past the post is more effective at forming governments which is what democracy is about."

    This is a key flaw. Democracy is about everyone's vote counting, not just that of a minority. Perhaps it's this that FFTP supporters are so worried about?

    "You yourself state that it is highly likely there will be more hung parliaments which is a commonly held view."

    Most democratic countries use PR (or some variant) and get along just fine with coalitions.

    "There seems to be a lot of argument about the cost, but there is no doubt it will cost more if ballot need to be counted multiple times."

    The cost is (comparatively) insignificant and is justified by the benefits.

    "£140m to be spent on new counting machines."

    We don't need counting machines but that said, once done it reduces the cost of future elections (see my above comment about costs being justified).

    "The general argument about safe seats"

    No it isn't, although that is a key plank. Some seats are unlikely to ever be threatened but others are more marginal. Here the MP's can get elected with a minority of voters preferring them. AV fixes this and puts the power back into voters' hands.

    "Is it really democratic when the second or indeed third preference of a few thousand voters can outweigh the first preferences of the most significant number of voters? "

    This is a bit of a distortion. Don't you mean:

    "Is it really democratic when the candidate who most people would prefer to get it gets in over the first preference of a sizeable minority?"

    "Quite frankly, no matter what arguments connected to logic you want to put forward"

    So logic doesn't count?

    "how is it fair that some people should have their vote counted only once and other people can have their vote counted many times?"

    Everyone's vote gets counted (that is, taken into account) at each stage.

    Look, at the end of the day AV is really quite simple: The candidate who the most people prefer gets in. Under FFTP the candidate with the most votes gets in, even if the majority of voters don't want them in. This is why AV is such a good idea.

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  • petitemisschief
    Love rating 22
    petitemisschief said

    I'm voting no as I think AV is a tinkering with the system and not an effective replacement to the current system. Once we start altering it every successive government will want to change it to their advantage. I'd rather see compulsory voting for all - then we havea true representation of what the public want. I know who I'm voting for in the local elections and I don;t have a second choice so what use is AV to people like me?

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  • Ben Hall
    Love rating 51
    Ben Hall said

    "AV will most likely produce modest changes in the number of seats won by the major parties. Nothing too dramatic. "

    So...if it's going to make little difference, why on earth are we even looking at a new system.

    If it ain't bust, why fix it?

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  • Quarket
    Love rating 25
    Quarket said

    Ed, it's obvious from your tables that the biggest winners in AV are the Lib Dems which is why they are so keen on it and why I am going to vote no. They are about to get the biggest spanking any political party has ever had. Can't wait for tomorrow.

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  • qwertyu
    Love rating 9
    qwertyu said

    I'm voting "Yes". I just really like the idea of being able to give my full list of preferences in elections. Each voter offers more info about their wishes. And I can very much imagine that lots of voter don't currently vote for their first choice and that's not as democratic as it could be.

    I don't care about the possible effects AV could have on election results. Whatever the effects are they would just reflect opinions. Some say it could cause more hung parliaments as if it's a bad thing. I don't see why that is seen as a bad thing. In a way I'm glad we have one now. I like how many policies have a Lib Dem little twist on them. I like the fact they have to compromise and Cameron can't just do everything exactly as he wants. He can get his overall vision working but it's tempered by Clegg. I like the fact the LD's were able to negociate this vote. Things that the party in power would never want to change have a chance of getting changed with hung parliaments and that's good.

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  • qwertyu
    Love rating 9
    qwertyu said

    "t's obvious from your tables that the biggest winners in AV are the Lib Dems which is why they are so keen on it and why I am going to vote no." I agree that their reasoning may be so but all I care about is my own reasoning. That's all anyone should care about. The only reason they MAY be the biggest winner is because people want to vote for them but under the current system they don't. So if the new system benefits them it's fair. It shows they've been under represented under the current system. Seems to me a lot are against it because it suite a party they don't like or hinder one they do. That's not a logic argument at all. It's a self interest argument.

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  • russbiker
    Love rating 57
    russbiker said

    Since when did LM become a political platform? There are plenty of other sites to expound one's politics, which I'm happy to read and engage in when I go to those sites. When I'm reading LM articles, I want financial information and comments. What next? Car maintenance?

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  • Quarket
    Love rating 25
    Quarket said

    qwerytyu, my reason for voting no is certainly a self interest, just as the LIb Dems have a self interest in a yes vote. The question is when does self interest argument become a logical one? My opinion is right at the inception in this case because I feel the Lib Dems have done a great deal of harm to me and THE WHOLE COUNTRY in the small amount of time that they have been in shared power. I know there are a few waverers in the party now, but as a whole they still claim they are doing the right thing which is why I believe it is logical to send them a signal in the strongest possible terms and a no to AV vote is part of that signal.

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  • qwertyu
    Love rating 9
    qwertyu said

    So you're saying your self interest is for the better of the whole country. So your opinion is better than others. Aren't these the seeds of thought that a dictators mentality could be build on. If your opinion is broadly shared and bullet proof in it's logic and perspective then what you want will happen in any voting system. The fairest voting system is more likely to reflect that opinion too. So looking at the systems and thinking about them irrespective of the current set of politicians and parties should be best for all. In 20 years time the landscape could look completely different and you may like the idea of smaller parties not being seen as a wasted vote.

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  • Quarket
    Love rating 25
    Quarket said

    qwertyu, I never said that my self interest is for the good of the whole country, I said that harm had been done to me and the whole country and therefore it was logical for ME to send a message of disapproval as is my democratic right. If you believe that my self interest is sewing the seeds of dictatorship, then you must believe that the Lib Dem's self interest is doing likewise. Even I would stop short of saying that much as I dislike the Lib Dem's. It's not that I don't like small parties, I don't like parties that harm the country in the long term and the Lib Dem's have punched well above their weight in this regard.

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  • LandOfConfusion
    Love rating 64
    LandOfConfusion said

    Quarket said

    "Ed, it's obvious from your tables that the biggest winners in AV are the Lib Dems which is why they are so keen on it and why I am going to vote no."

    I see. So you're going to vote "no" because AV is more democratic and this may mean that we'd have more LibDem MP's as a result?

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  • Chuckwallah
    Love rating 23
    Chuckwallah said

    Quarket this is not a vote for or against the Lib-Dems, it is a vote for or against a slightly better (fairer) voting system. If you vote NO because you have a grudge against the Lib-Dems then you will have misused your vote - shame on you.

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  • Quarket
    Love rating 25
    Quarket said

    Not sure if my posts are coming out in Swahili or Dutch on some people's screens, but for the sake of LandOfConfusion, I will repeat myself in the hope that this comes out in a language that he understands. The reason I am voting no to AV is that I want to send a message to the Lib Dems that they have screwed up big time. They are going to lose a lot of seats tomorrow and if they lose the AV vote as well, that will be the iceing on the cake.

    AV is not more democratic than FPTP. There will be lots of poeple who will only vote for one candidate if AV comes in which means some people get more votes than others if their first chosen candidate doesn't get in. I also believe that asking people to make more than one choice will put some of them off voting at all reducing turnout and damaging the democratic process. However, this is not my main reason for voting no. As stated earlier, I want to see the Lib Dems spanked.

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  • Quarket
    Love rating 25
    Quarket said

    Chukwallah, its called tactical voting and been going on since democracy was born. The shame belongs to the Lib Dems not me.

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  • qwertyu
    Love rating 9
    qwertyu said

    This more than one vote argument makes no sense. They only get one vote that actually counts. Any of their votes before the final round are for a losing cause and are discarded for the next round. Only the final round when one party left gets 50% does a vote actually count. Only then does a vote for or against the winning party actually have any effect on anything.

    However flawed your argument is this time it's a million times better than the rather petulant I hate one party so I'll vote this way logic.

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  • LandOfConfusion
    Love rating 64
    LandOfConfusion said

    Quarket said

    "The reason I am voting no to AV is that I want to send a message to the Lib Dems that they have screwed up big time."

    I don't quite see how you came to the conclusion that they "screwed up big time" but I digress.

    So what you're saying is that regardless of the merits of the system, you have a personal vendetta and will use any reasonable tool at your disposal to execute it? Well, if that's right (sorry, my Swahili's a bit rusty) then that speaks volumes about your views and logic.

    As for me, I'm voting for AV even though Ed Milliband supports it. And that's even though I hate his guts and his party.

    "AV is not more democratic than FPTP."

    I disagree. Under AV the candidate with the most preference wins. This is unlike FPTP in that you don't vote AGAINST a candidate, you vote FOR them. This should lead to a fairer outcome.

    "There will be lots of poeple who will only vote for one candidate if AV comes in which means some people get more votes than others"

    No it doesn't! What it means is that if you only put one preference and that preference doesn't win then your vote fails to effect the final outcome. If you put multiple preferences however then your vote has a SINGLE CHANCE to affect the outcome.

    You only get one chance to change the outcome for one vote.

    "I also believe that asking people to make more than one choice will put some of them off voting at all reducing turnout and damaging the democratic process."

    I've never believed the argument that it's too complex. If you can drive a car or understand a game of football then you can understand AV. I cannot believe that people will be put off just because they have to put a number instead of a cross.

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  • Quarket
    Love rating 25
    Quarket said

    The more than one vote argument does make sense when you consider that some people will only vote for one candidate. What happens to their vote when their candidate isn't in the final two? It gets thrown in the bin whereas the person who made several choices will have several chances to have a say in which party gets in. I'm sure some will say that it's their own fault for not making several choices, but its hard enough to get some people to understand the policies and personalities of two parties, let alone four five or six. Maybe if AV gets in we should say that any paper that doesn't have at least 4 candidates ticked is spoilt and therefore doesn't count. That would force people to make the 4 choices. A better alternative is to leave things as they are.

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  • LandOfConfusion
    Love rating 64
    LandOfConfusion said

    Quarket said

    "The more than one vote argument does make sense when you consider that some people will only vote for one candidate. What happens to their vote when their candidate isn't in the final two?"

    The same thing happens as now, so no change.

    "whereas the person who made several choices will have several chances to have a say in which party gets in."

    No they will only have ONE say at affecting the outcome.

    You support a system where votes are routinely discarded and therefore deprive the voter of his or her voice and yet attack a system which offers to fix this. Please explain.

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  • Quarket
    Love rating 25
    Quarket said

    qwerty stated: "I've never believed the argument that it's too complex. If you can drive a car or understand a game of football then you can understand AV. I cannot believe that people will be put off just because they have to put a number instead of a cross."

    You are not asking them to put a number instead of a cross, you asking them to put in several numbers in order of preference instead of a cross. Just have a look at TV interviews of Joe public at election time when they are asked which party they are voting for. Some are definite, some are thinking about it and some aren't interested. Part of that lack of interest stems from a lack of understanding and mistrust of parties and with AV you are asking them to understand the policies of more parties and making it more complicated for them. I predict that if AV gets in, turnout will reduce.

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  • qwertyu
    Love rating 9
    qwertyu said

    If they only put one candidate they are telling us they are indifferent if their candidate does not win. So their vote being ignored in the later round is exactly what they want. They have declared they want A but if not A they do not have an opinion. Their vote is counted exactly as they want it to be. Each voter gets to give their compete opinion and their vote is used exactly in accordance with that opinion whether it's a full list of preferences or just 1.

    Although it's not completely ignored, it does count as "not for the lead party" so it could cause another round to be needed.

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  • qwertyu
    Love rating 9
    qwertyu said

    not me but I'm happy to have my name associated with it. If they're that dumb they are probably also too dumb and ill informed to know there's an election on.

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  • Quarket
    Love rating 25
    Quarket said

    "whereas the person who made several choices will have several chances to have a say in which party gets in."

    No they will only have ONE say at affecting the outcome.

    But the person who only voted for one candidate who doesn't get in has no say, so some poeple who make several choices are guaranteed a say and those who make one choice are not.

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  • qwertyu
    Love rating 9
    qwertyu said

    I've addressed this above. If someone only puts one preference that is them saying they're not bothered after that. Their vote is being used in exactly the way they want it to be. They always had the option of making several preferences but chose not to probably because they are indifferent about party B vs C vs D... but know that A is their favourite.

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  • LandOfConfusion
    Love rating 64
    LandOfConfusion said

    Quarket said

    "with AV you are asking them to understand the policies of more parties and making it more complicated for them."

    That is quite an astonishing statement. Yes I'm asking them to understand what they're voting for. That is fundamental how democracy works.

    Oh, and how appropriate, I've just been emailed this:

    http://www2.b3ta.com/host/creative/67427/1302893882/AV.jpg

    "But the person who only voted for one candidate who doesn't get in has no say, so some poeple who make several choices are guaranteed a say and those who make one choice are not."

    And under FPTP the person who voted for a losing candidate in a multiple party election doesn't get a say. I'm sorry but I don't see your point.

    Under AV you have a choice, take it or leave it. Under FPTP you don't.

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  • LandOfConfusion
    Love rating 64
    LandOfConfusion said

    http://www.salamanderorganics.co.uk/av.gif

    Report on 04 May 2011  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Quarket
    Love rating 25
    Quarket said

    qwertyu, you are in danger of making some voters more equal than others. There are many voters who won't understand the complexities of parties with extremely diverse policies such as BNP, UKIP and Green and those people are most likely to vote for only one candidate not because they are indifferent to the policies, but because of a lack of understanding i.e they want to keep it simple. But under AV, their vote is less likely to be counted than that of a voter who is more politically aware. You are effectively asking voters who would normally vote A or B to understand the policies and personalities of a greater range of parties perhaps tripling the time they must spend reading up in order to be given the same level of affecting the vote as someone who is very political.

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  • Quarket
    Love rating 25
    Quarket said

    LandOfConfusion stated: And under FPTP the person who voted for a losing candidate in a multiple party election doesn't get a say. I'm sorry but I don't see your point.

    The point is that under FPTP anyone who votes for the losing candidate doesn't get a say, you only get one choice so everyone is treated equally. Under AV some will get a say if they chose the losing candidate and some won't.

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  • qwertyu
    Love rating 9
    qwertyu said

    You underestimate people. Every voter knows enough about the three main parties to have an opinion even if it's equal for two of them.

    If they don't know a lot about the minor parties then them not listing them is appropriate and effects the election result as it should. They would not have voted for them as the system is now so they don't give them a preference under AV either. All makes sense and is no different than FPLP for those people's effect on the minor party they don't know anything about. More importantly the people who DO know about and like the minor parties can vote for them safe in the knowledge it's not a waste.

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  • LandOfConfusion
    Love rating 64
    LandOfConfusion said

    "and those people are most likely to vote for only one candidate not because they are indifferent to the policies, but because of a lack of understanding i.e they want to keep it simple."

    So we should shaft everyone because a tiny minority may not be willing to even try to understand the political process? That's an argument that has been used to argue against a move from dictatorship to democracy.

    "But under AV, their vote is less likely to be counted than that of a voter who is more politically aware."

    Why is this a bad thing? If I've bothered to get informed then perhaps I'm better positioned to hold an opinion?

    To be honest this line of reasoning doesn't make any sense. You're saying that the apathetic might lose out under AV even though under FPTP they may end up supporting someone totally unsuitable purely though ignorance.

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  • qwertyu
    Love rating 9
    qwertyu said

    "Under AV some will get a say if they chose the losing candidate and some won't" - Some won't get a say because they decided not to have a say under those circumstances. They could have a say if they want to. It's so easy.

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  • smithdom
    Love rating 34
    smithdom said

    This is one of the many articles dismantling the NO2AV arguments - http://paperbackrioter.wordpress.com/2011/02/22/an-a-z-of-rubbish-arguments-from-no2av/

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  • joannakd
    Love rating 9
    joannakd said

    VOTE NO TO AV !!!

    I have found a video that might describe better how the AV system brings about undesirable results.

    I have shortened the URL......tinyurl.com/vote-no-2-av

    Everyone on both sides of the spectrum should watch this comedy sketch.

    Report on 05 May 2011  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • joannakd
    Love rating 9
    joannakd said

    VOTE NO TO AV !!!

    I have found a video that might describe better how the AV system brings about undesirable results.

    I have shortened the URL......tinyurl.com/vote-no-2-av

    Everyone on both sides of the spectrum should watch this comedy sketch.

    Report on 05 May 2011  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • smithdom
    Love rating 34
    smithdom said

    Great comedy, funny because it deliberately exaggerates the situation beyond what is realistic. In the sketch Yellow wins because because it got most people's second preference, but then they all complain about it. In the real world these people would not have stated any preference for Yellow.

    Report on 05 May 2011  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Chuckwallah
    Love rating 23
    Chuckwallah said

    Quarket, I said shame on you for voting for the wrong reasons, your vendetta against the Lib-Dems also harms the Greens, UKIP, Independants and every other minor party who might, just attract enough first votes under AV to become significant.

    Double shame on you for also propagating the lie that ordinary people are too stupid to understand how AV works and are incapable of working out what parties stand for. Agreed there are probably lots of people who just can't be bothered to work these things out but I suspect that much of this apathy is a result of our current electoral system.

    FPTP results in far more people being unable to affect the outcome of an election than AV would.

    Report on 05 May 2011  |  Love thisLove  1 love
  • Ed Bowsher
    Love rating 79
    Ed Bowsher said

    Hello everyone,

    Thanks for all the comments. I'm glad that this has stirred up plenty of debate. I just want to answer a couple of the points that have been made.

    If it ain't bust, why fix it? [/I}

    Well, I think our current system is bust. It discriminates massively against smaller parties, it's disproportionate and produces bizarre regional variations.

    Sadly, AV doesn't solve all these problems but it's a better system than we have now. If you support a smaller party, you can express your preference, but you can also make sure that your vote isn't wasted if your first preference isn't one of the more popular parties.

    Since when did LM become a political platform? There are plenty of other sites to expound one's politics, which I'm happy to read and engage in when I go to those sites. When I'm reading LM articles, I want financial information and comments. What next? Car maintenance?

    I can understand this point. However, I would say that these posts were published as part of my personal blog. http://www.lovemoney.com/blogs/edbowsher

    So I reckon it's ok to depart from personal finance every so often on that blog. I also warned at the beginning of part one that this was nothing to do with personal finance.

    That said, I hope I've not annoyed too many people.

    Ed

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  • Quarket
    Love rating 25
    Quarket said

    Chuckwallah, I never said anyone was stupid. Triple shame with a cherry on top you for suggesting that I did.

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  • Chuckwallah
    Love rating 23
    Chuckwallah said

    Quarket, read your post again!

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  • Quarket
    Love rating 25
    Quarket said

    Chuckwallah, I just did a word search for 'stupid' on this whole page and it only comes up twice. Once where you said that I propogated a lie that people are stupid and once more (subsequently) where I said I never used the word. It's you who needs to read my posts again and it is quite clear who the liar is.

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  • LandOfConfusion
    Love rating 64
    LandOfConfusion said

    Quarket said

    "I never said anyone was stupid. Triple shame with a cherry on top you for suggesting that I did."

    Maybe My Swahili is worse than I thought but didn't you say:

    "I also believe that asking people to make more than one choice will put some of them off voting at all"

    "but its hard enough to get some people to understand the policies and personalities of two parties, let alone four five or six."

    "Part of that lack of interest stems from a lack of understanding"

    "There are many voters who won't understand the complexities of parties with extremely diverse policies "

    If you can understand your phone bill then you can understand AV. Also none of these arguments are really valid unless you're against Democracy as a system.

    http://www2.b3ta.com/host/creative/67427/1302893882/AV.jpg

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  • Quarket
    Love rating 25
    Quarket said

    What is your point Land of Confusion? Are you saying that I am calling voters stupid because of those half dozen or so quotes. If that's what you think is evidence for your case then you could prosecute a fare dodger for muder.

    Understanding your phone bill and AV is much easier than understanding all of the parties, policies and personalities that you ask people to understand in making multiple choices that are required for AV.

    And could you explain your repetition of this rather unfunny link?

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  • LandOfConfusion
    Love rating 64
    LandOfConfusion said

    "What is your point Land of Confusion? Are you saying that I am calling voters stupid because of those half dozen or so quotes."

    You said:

    "I never said anyone was stupid."

    So in reply I quoted where you seemed to be suggesting that the majority of people would find AV too complicated. As it's an incredibly easy system to understand and so the obvious conclusion is that, like David Cameron you think most voters are stupid.

    "If that's what you think is evidence for your case then you could prosecute a fare dodger for muder."

    Now you're being silly.

    "Understanding your phone bill and AV is much easier than understanding all of the parties, policies and personalities that you ask people to understand in making multiple choices that are required for AV."

    How much of that do you think people actually take into account now? Seriously?

    I've been debating politics for years and from experience most people gravitate towards a party (or rarely a leader) who they think has the best chance of getting in AND who is most likely to give them a good deal.

    Frankly, if your argument against AV is that it offers people too much choice then I suggest you start campaigning for a dictatorship.

    "And could you explain your repetition of this rather unfunny link?"

    Like others you have repeatedly suggested that AV is too complicated. The link makes fun of that.

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  • Quarket
    Love rating 25
    Quarket said

    "So in reply I quoted where you seemed to be suggesting that the majority of people would find AV too complicated. As it's an incredibly easy system to understand and so the obvious conclusion is that, like David Cameron you think most voters are stupid".

    Yet again twisting of words! or Confusion of the article which seems to be your real point. 1) I never said a majority anywhere.

    2) It is only an obvious conclusion to you as I do not think voters are stupid.

    3) I don't give a monkeys what Cameron thinks.

    "Frankly, if your argument against AV is that it offers people too much choice then I suggest you start campaigning for a dictatorship."

    Didn't you just accuse me of being silly?

    "Like others you have repeatedly suggested that AV is too complicated. The link makes fun of that."

    I didn't find it funny but that is neither here nor there, but you should know that when you state something funny more than once in a short space of time, it's not likely to get the same laughs on repetitions.

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  • LandOfConfusion
    Love rating 64
    LandOfConfusion said

    "Yet again twisting of words! or Confusion of the article which seems to be your real point.

    1) I never said a majority anywhere."

    Either you're concerned that a significant number of voters will be confused (over 50% under AV to have an effect) OR that because a MINORITY of people can't handle more than 2 choices we shouldn't use AV.

    Which is it?

    "2) It is only an obvious conclusion to you as I do not think voters are stupid."

    So either AV is difficult and/or significantly more so than FPTP or my quotes of you saying things like:

    "but its hard enough to get some people to understand the policies and personalities of two parties, let alone four five or six."

    are not your real opinion.

    C is for complicated:

    http://paperbackrioter.wordpress.com/2011/02/22/an-a-z-of-rubbish-arguments-from-no2av/

    Look it up.

    ["Frankly, if your argument against AV is that it offers people too much choice then I suggest you start campaigning for a dictatorship."]

    "Didn't you just accuse me of being silly?"

    Didn't you say:

    "but its hard enough to get some people to understand the policies and personalities of two parties, let alone four five or six."

    and then

    "Understanding your phone bill and AV is much easier than understanding all of the parties, policies and personalities that you ask people to understand in making multiple choices that are required for AV."

    Too much choice = more difficult than understanding your phone bill. If people can't be trusted or relied upon to decide on who gets to run the country (because it's too difficult) then what solution does this line of thinking lead us to? A mandatory two party system held under FPTP (to keep things simple for the minority) or a dictatorship?

    "but you should know that when you state something funny more than once in a short space of time, it's not likely to get the same laughs on repetitions."

    Wow, we're really going of track now. I make a point and much like the "No" campaign you've skirted around it, which is why I reposted it to your repetition or argument.

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  • LandOfConfusion
    Love rating 64
    LandOfConfusion said

    Oh, and as I type the Yes2AV campaign has just emailed me this:

    "[People are coming home from work.] Many of them won't have voted yet, most of them won't have heard that David Blunkett has come clean and admitted that No2AV "made up" that £250 million cost claim."

    When following any debate I generally go with whatever side uses the least weasel tactics, as experience tells me that they're usually right. The "No" campaign has largely avoided the questions, distorted the truth and even made up facts, all while being funded by powerful, shady figures with government links.

    So go ahead. Vote "No" and look out for the stupid and apathetic who can't be bothered to even find out who's running. As for me, I'll be voting for everybody else, for all those would like to see this country run by someone they actually like.

    AV gives you the chance for one of your preferences to get in. FPTP requires you to either waste your vote or vote defensively and let someone else decide.

    This is why AV is progress.

    - LoC

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  • Hardtruth
    Love rating 66
    Hardtruth said

    The fact that it takes Ed Bowsher 875 lines to describe it and the likes of LoC equal amounts of endless guff to "make the case" says all you need to know about how flawed the whole thing is.

    Anyway just a few short hours to go before this lamentable "cause for the losers" is booted into touch for good.

    Report on 06 May 2011  |  Love thisLove  0 loves

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