The scammer who visited me

Tony Levene
by Lovemoney Staff Tony Levene on 11 August 2010  |  Comments 22 comments

Tony Levene gets a visit from a scammer. But how does he know it's a scammer?

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Most deals that look too good to be true are too good to be true. Every scam watcher knows that.

So run a million miles from them. But a few almost unbelievable deals are for real.

A few years ago, I saw an advert in my local council magazine offering solar hot water panels and a wind turbine at £500 each.

It sounded fantasy but it was the council offering the green goodies so I applied – along with thousands of others in my area.

The wind turbine offer was fantasy. It was almost immediately withdrawn as the technology does not fit back gardens. But I was one of the fifty chosen for the solar roof panels.

Eighteen months later – council wheels grind slowly – the work was completed. I paid my £500.

The installers said the work was worth £5,000. So where did the balance come from? My benefactor was power company Scottish & Southern which subsidised the scheme as part of a green offset plan – more use than sending out millions of unwanted light bulbs.

How much do I save from this new source of hot water? I really don't know as there are variables including the number of people at home, gas costs, and, of course, the weather.

But I do know that, leaving aside the good green feeling, I have a good chance of recouping my £500 in a few years. However, had I paid the economic price, then I would be talking about 30 to 40 years (assuming power prices stay unchanged).

Despite having these panels, I get loads of salesfolk knocking at the door trying to sell me solar panels. I invited one (who had not even bothered to look upwards to the roof) in.

He assured me I would never have to pay for water heating again (not true as the panels offer little in winter) before quoting me £12,000 – or £10,000 if I signed up there and then. This “drop close” is an old trick beloved of double glazing and home improvement sales staff.

Don’t fall for this trick

Even at £10,000, the payback period is some six decades. And that's not counting maintenance or eventual replacement of the panels, controller or special water tank.

These companies often target retired people but even their grandchildren may not benefit.

Trading standards departments have shut down some companies. And others have gone bust. Still, the same people re-emerge like versions of a latter day phoenix, ready the recycle the same sales tricks on more unsuspecting victims who want to make the planet a little greener.

Legitimate offers

So what to make of a new variety of deals from firms such as Homesun and A Shade Greener? These offer installations of photo voltaic panels (these generate electricity rather than heat water like mine) to suitable homes, generally those with large south-facing roofs.

The important difference here is these installations are free. In return for lending your roof for 25 years to these companies – and there will be others coming into the market – you get the electricity they generate at no charge. Using a smart meter shows what you generate and what you need to buy from your electricity supplier.

So what's in it for the installers who spend about £10,000 per house? They expect to profit over the 25 years from the government's new “feed-in tariff” scheme which pays a generous price per kilowatt to small scale green electricity generators. The installer keeps the money – estimated at 5 to 8% of its investment each year. You get the power.

And even if the installer goes bust, your contract will probably be sold to another firm. Failing that, you get to keep everything.

If there is a major downside to this, I must confess I have not found it!

What do you think?

Award-winning scams expert Tony Levene explains why he's writing a blog about scams and why he is The Scam Magnet!

More: My phonecall with a sharedealing scammer  | The oldest scam in the book

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Comments (22)

  • easygoing
    Love rating 156
    easygoing said

    This scheme was aired on the BBC's 'You and Yours' the other day, and it seems to be straight. The danger seems to be more to the supplier than the homeowner as governments change the rules at the drop of a hat and the "feed in tariff" scheme could disappear overnight.

    Report on 14 August 2010  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • dougbatt
    Love rating 2
    dougbatt said

    The downside to the Solar Panel installation scheme is that some mug is paying nearly eight times the cost of electricity generation for each unit produced. That mug is either the tax payer or other power company customers.

    Report on 14 August 2010  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Ken1961
    Love rating 22
    Ken1961 said

    Sorry Tony but this is miles out, typical solar two panel kit supplied & installed would cost around £3500 to £4000 for a decent system, this is broken down as follows solar panel kit,flat plate on roof system £1300, pipework £320, cylinder 250litre twin coil £800, sundries materials £80. Two day hire of scaffold tower £100, the remaining £900 - £1400 for the installation & commissioning. As this is only a two day maximum job the installation costs should be no more than what I have said.

    30 to 40 year payback? Starting with the £4000 as a typical install cost and an average saving at current costs of around £150-£200 per year for an average family home that solar panels can produce, of course subject to weather, but these are average savings, that would be a 20 to approx 27 year payback, however it has been announced that heating oil will be increasing by around 40% this year, so if you heat your home with oil then the pay back comes down to approx 14 years to 19 years and remember ALL fuel is linked to the price of oil, so if you heat by gas this increase will catch up with you, and that is just one increase.

    Now the other fly in the ointment of your article is the renewable heat incentive (RHI) just like the feed in tariff for the solar pv panels you mentioned in your article, the RHI will pay a generous pence per Kw that your solar panels will be deemed to have saved in fossil fuel, this is expected to be payed annually, will be guaranteed for 20 years and inflation proofed by index linking. Any system that has been installed where the panels are an approved panel and have been fitted by an accredited installer, since July 2009 can apply for this payment when the scheme is launched in April 2011. This was anticipated to reduce pay back to around the 10 to 15 year mark, but that was prior to the latest price increases, so you could be in profit a lot quicker.

    Like you Tony, I despise the cowboys in the solar industry there are too many people making false claims and the cowboys are not the small installers by and large, they are the big name companies like a certain double glazing company, who sell the customer far too many panels for their needs at very over inflated costs.

    Talking about double glazing I remember the early days of this market when payback was the big thing in choosing to upgrade to double glazing, who thinks about that now? I suspect no one, as it's seen as a necessity of modern living, fossil fuels are on the decline and as we become reliant on less dependable countries for our fuel, there will be only one direction for fuel prices to go. In a few months as building regulations change, new build housing will come as standard with some form of renewable heat source, solar thermal being the most abundant and in time the norm.

    As for the Pv done by the likes of A Shade Greener, this is available only to households with a true south facing suitable roof, in selected geographical locations. If you qualify, after 25 years the panels are yours, by which time the FIT will have finished and you inherit all the costs of maintaining a 25 year old system, which will be getting towards the end of it's effective lifespan, it will then need to be decommissioned and scrapped at a suitable location at your expense. At what cost, who knows? This is the draw back I can see. If you can afford them better to buy and get all the profits or wait for the proposed green mortgages to come on stream, which will allow the panels to be paid from from the money they generate from the FIT, but still leave you a profit, if you move the mortgage stays with the house not you.

     

      

    Report on 14 August 2010  |  Love thisLove  2 loves
  • Ken1961
    Love rating 22
    Ken1961 said

    easygoing the FIT scheme is guaranteed for 25 years, regardless of government so can not dissapear overnight. This country has a European reduced carbon emmissions target for 2020 which is non negotiable and if we fail to meet will result in huge fines, so the government will be increasing it's incentives, not scrapping them.

    Report on 14 August 2010  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • electricblue
    Love rating 643
    electricblue said

    Photovoltaic cells are constantly falling in price, as will all new technology the 'early adopters' are mugs unless they benefit from government subsidies but it really is the only way to help this technologies develop. Look at the £5000 government subsidies for electric cars, all to give us inefficient vehicles hardly useful as a family car - truly a bargain at half the price ! 

    If you really want to save money on electricity look carefully at your lighting and move to the latest generation low energy lamps combined with LED fittings for ambient lighting and security. I develop and work with LED products and at least in terms of lighting it is very feasible to live 'off grid' if you can build some of your own fixtures. Some of the commercial LED lights are very inefficient and give off far too much heat so they will never deliver the promised long life potential of LEDs. Beware of traditional lighting companies jumping on a bandwagon and importing everything from China. LED's themselves are intrinsically very robust but very poor and cheap design has meant that many early LED systems have had poor life expectancy. Keep watching the technology as prices fall and quality improves, the break even point is becoming shorter and shorter.

    Report on 14 August 2010  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • IvorBigwun
    Love rating 4
    IvorBigwun said

    I could not care less: I don't want those ugly things on my nice slate roof! Besides, it's easier just to be a little more careful with how much power you use - not that I am: I am very wasteful as is just about everyone else. I mean, I'm at my computer now, writing this drivel, when I could going going for a nice healthy walk instead.

    Report on 14 August 2010  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • fevfil
    Love rating 0
    fevfil said

    I thought your home needed to be south facing for solar to be efficient, or as in Spain actually move in line with the sun

    Report on 14 August 2010  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • nickpike
    Love rating 270
    nickpike said

    More wasted taxpayers money. Please stop wasting our money. I'm getting really fed-up with this now.

    Bang up a few large nuclear power stations. Job done at best cost.

    This green nonsense is costing more than double to produce the same amount of electrickery.

    Report on 14 August 2010  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • glads69
    Love rating 13
    glads69 said

    Apologies if the following points have already been made.

    Most go on about the £ pay in deterrent v payback incentive with a lesser nod to "being green". A powerful motivator for me is also the slow but definite detachment from relying on the GREEDY and uncontrolled utility companies which, to coin that ad, is priceless!!

    PV installation subsidies are guaranteed index-linked for 25 years regardless of government change because the utility companies are "paying" for this. As they won't take that hit, they will increase their prices. So everyone who uses gas and/or electricity in the UK WILL pay for this subsidy. Think about it from that viewpoint when you dismiss joining the scheme!! 

    Report on 14 August 2010  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • easygoing
    Love rating 156
    easygoing said

    Ken1961  Thanks for that information. I am probably getting neurotic about the good stuff that is being thrown out with the bad just now.

    Report on 14 August 2010  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • oldhenry
    Love rating 266
    oldhenry said

    The best bet is a heat pump taking heat out of teh ground. They are invisible and more reliable. the slar panels are full of problems, my son has them so I know.

    They give lots of hot water when you do not need it ( summer) and none when you do (winter).

    It is a scam that morons falll for as they have not done the arithmetic. It will not add value to the house as the maintenance will need to come off the price, house buyers are not so green as the original buyers of the kit.

    If you DIY your own panels, they just about may pay - if you use old radiators etc.

    Report on 14 August 2010  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Ken1961
    Love rating 22
    Ken1961 said

    oldhenry

     as per usual you get it all wraped round your neck, why would you not want hot water in the summer, don't you bath or shower more often due to the heat in the summer? I know I have more than one shower a day in the hot sticky weather. Solar thermal panels are only used to heat your hot water that you use for washing ie the DHW in your hot water tank, it is not used for heating your house. The only maintenance needed on solar thermal panels is to check the strength of the antifreeze once per year. Only morons beleive that diy/old radiators are even close to the efficency of good quality manufactured panels, and only morons beleive that we can carry on burning fossil fuels at the rate we have been doing.

     Heat pumps are fine providing your house is very well insulated beyond todays building regulations, or at current levels if you are off gas (ie heating by electricity or oil), however even then you will need to have your electrical supply checked out due to the high currents a lot of these machines draw, you may even require a 3 phase electrical supply.

    nickpike

    It is exactly your type that has got us in the mess we are in, you are a typical lets go for the short term easy solution, well tell you what, lets build the nuclear power station in your back garden and, we will store the spent fuel in a bunker below your house. As you are first in the queue to have them built, you and your family will be happy to live with any of the consequences of living in close proximity to the nuclear generating plant. Yeah that would be the day, right? I bet you would be first of the we want nuclear, but not in my back yard brigade. Just like the we want electricity but not the wind turbines lot, who are happy to have electricity from coal burning power stations built in some one else's locality. totally selfish NIMBY's. 

     

    Report on 14 August 2010  |  Love thisLove  1 love
  • ticktock
    Love rating 34
    ticktock said

    Just had a mail from a company offering to supply & fit panels FREE, and they claim the govt subs. This seems like a scam so I'll pass.

    Power companies are in business to make money, Yes! Why oh why are they trying to get us to use less power (electricity)?

    Report on 14 August 2010  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Ken1961
    Love rating 22
    Ken1961 said

    ticktock

    Because the government has told them to or they face higher taxes. The choice was give away some of their profits to help reduce carbon production in the UK by 2020 (see my previous posts) or face higher and more frequent wind fall taxes. No mystery involved.

    Report on 14 August 2010  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • eLJay
    Love rating 76
    eLJay said

    You can buy Voltaic panels and just place them at ground level if your house has a secure area where the sun is available (you can always put some at the front and some at the back) often these can have mount points glued on. No fitting cost - if you have an upstairs room with roof windows that you mainly use for storage you can fit the panel under the window.

    I think this fitted at great expense attitude in the UK is the wrong approach, we should start to think small rather than permanently fitting things as heat and cold damage has been known to break solar panels so why fit them where they are going to be expensive to maintain.

    Report on 16 August 2010  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • dergal
    Love rating 2
    dergal said

    Wow this article is badly researched, appallingly so ... 

    "...Even at £10,000, the payback period is some six decades. And that's not counting maintenance or eventual replacement of the panels, controller or special water tank..." 

    Please go have a look at some of the discussions on this - because of the FIT tariffs the payback will be a lot quicker, even if you do not use the energy yourself... 

    I think if this is the quality of LoveMoney articles now I am unsubscribing - this is daily mail quality journalism

    Report on 16 August 2010  |  Love thisLove  1 love
  • McLeodC
    Love rating 13
    McLeodC said

    I wouldn't recommend OldHenry's DIY suggestion of fitting home-made solar panels made from old radiators on the roof. Radiators are very heavy, and few roofs are built to be able to support that amount of additional weight. Radiators would also be much less efficient at heat capture than purpose-built panels, so you would need to cover a much larger area to get an equivalent benefit. And radiators designed for indoor use rust quickly when outside, requiring constant maintenance and frequent replacement. Plus, your house will look like a scrapyard. If you have enough space, they could be mounted on the ground outside - but your garden will still look like a scrapyard!  

    Report on 16 August 2010  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Savvy chic
    Love rating 20
    Savvy chic said

    Years ago, I had guys round to give me a quote. The back of my house faces due south and is ideal. They wanted £4k for them and, at the time, I was paying £12 a month for gas for heating AND hot water. Didn't make economoic sense.

    Now, I have no water tanks so cannot get them and, in any case, I don't see why they can't be made to run central heating as well, since it is hot water which fills the radiators.

    My plumber knows a guy who made his own with an old radiator in a wooden frame, all painted black. The radiator is ideal since it has an inlet and an outlet already.

    Report on 16 August 2010  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • pablo411
    Love rating 9
    pablo411 said

    Fit solar water heating, the return in cost will take a fair time (unless you fit them yourself) other than the roof work the rest is easy mine have worked well for 2 years now, I have already saved about half the installation costs.

    Now fitting PV panels with the feed in tariff they will return cost at about 8 to 10 percent (borrow the money pay it back from FIT) 8 to 10 years down the line you are in profit the FIT is for 25 years and is passed on to any subsequent owners so when you sell you get a premium because of your foresight "sounds good to me"

    Report on 17 August 2010  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Steviebaby1959
    Love rating 28
    Steviebaby1959 said

    For those who live in apartment blocks and those god awful 1960's tenements, this idea is not possible. Also, your house needs to be directly in the sun's rays for at least 4/5 hours, which is the main component in this issue, it's no good, if you live where the sun is partly blocked from your property, due to high trees, other residencies, etc, for half a day. Living in Britain, the days of full sunshine are very negligble, even, in the summer months, what about the rest of the year, when the sun's strength is quite weak and hazy, you won't generate much adverse power, 3/4 weeks a year of very hot weather is not enough, surely, we need the same heat impact that Spain and Florida experiences to warrant such expenditure, which, unless GOD pushes the British Isles about 1000 miles south, is not going to happen.

    Report on 19 August 2010  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • eLJay
    Love rating 76
    eLJay said

    Firstly the lifespan for the panels is only about 25 years, so there is no return on the investment.

    Photo Voltaics are really inefficient, I'm waiting for ones that work with UV which is more reliable over more lighting conditions and more of the year which should make them produce more power. If the Japanese perfect spray on clear UV then your entire house facing the sun can become a solar collector. You are probably wiser buying a small panel to charge mobile phones and other devices as it is more likely to pay you back (some are also fitted on backpacks to travel with you).

    Report on 04 July 2011  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • FIATcurrency
    Love rating 1
    FIATcurrency said

    Badly researched and ill informed, showing a total lack of understanding of the subject and lacking any analysis of the current FIT tariffs and yearly returns for customers.

    The distinction between between solar water heating panels, as fitted on Tony Levene's roof, and solar electric panels was not made sufficiently clear. The quoted 10k installation cost estimate for (which?) system is also misleading. A genuine " 60 year payback period" would clearly be unsustainable for companies that are now offering 25 year leases on 'free' pv installs.

    "How much do I save from this new source of hot water?" A comparison of average annual consumption figures, before and after installling solar water heating panels would have been useful here. Even with fluctuating energy requirements, there should have been a measureable difference.

    "The important difference here is these installations are free" Wrong. The important difference here is between heating water and generating electric. The electric generated by pv solar panels can be sold back to the grid via FIT feed in tariff. Customers with the means to buy panels themselves can also benefit from the FIT scheme and potentially make bigger returns.

    "(assuming power prices stay unchanged)." Again a very bad assumption to make, every indicator predicts sharp rises in uk power costs within the next five years. This year alone British Gas increased their energy prices by 16-18%.

    Report on 25 August 2011  |  Love thisLove  0 loves

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