John Lewis cannot be trusted!

Donna Ferguson
by Lovemoney Staff Donna Ferguson on 07 February 2011  |  Comments 28 comments

I used to trust John Lewis. Now I've changed my mind.

‘Never knowingly undersold’ has been John Lewis’ motto since 1925.

This means that, unlike other retailers who sneakily offer price promises on stock that isn't ever sold in any other store, John Lewis genuinely matches the price of an item if you found it elsewhere.

Or so all of us here at lovemoney.com thought until this weekend, when a reader of the Guardian showed that a new, sneaky little loophole in John Lewis’ terms and conditions  (introduced last September) means the retailer’s 86-year-old promise is no longer worth the paper it’s written on.

What happened?

The reader had bought a washing machine from John Lewis with a two-year warranty. A few days later, he saw the same model in Argos for £60 less.

The only difference was that, like the vast majority of retailers, Argos only offers a one-year warranty.

For this reason, John Lewis refused to match the reader’s price, citing its new terms and conditions. These state that stores will no longer match a price unless its rival offers the exact same warranty.

For me, this is like ripping up the promise and throwing it away. According to the Guardian, John Lewis offers two-year warranties on almost all its electrical items, while very few other retailers do so. This makes it almost impossible to claim on ‘never knowingly undersold’ promise for an electrical item.

The worst thing is, the reader could have bought an extra year’s warranty for around £27 from a third party company – still leaving him £33 better off if he hadn’t shopped at John Lewis.

He explained this to John Lewis. And even though he would then have had an identical item with an identical warranty, John Lewis still refused to honour its ‘never knowingly undersold’ promise.

Bizarrely, if Argos had offered the extra year’s warranty instead of the third party company, John Lewis would have agreed to refund the difference.

Let’s be fair

I know many lovemoney.com readers are big fans of John Lewis and will think its approach is fair. After all, the extra warranty is worth something, so why shouldn’t John Lewis expect you to pay more for it?

The question is whether  John Lewis is, indeed, knowingly underselling its products by charging more for the extra year’s warranty than you could buy it elsewhere. Personally I think it is.

Why has John Lewis decided to turn its back on a promise that has stood it in such good stead for decades? The answer is simple. It could not afford to compete on price with online electrical retailers.

Competition from cheap online retailers

John Lewis brought in the change regarding warranties at the same time the price-match promise was extended to items that can be bought on the internet.

This was a good move, and long overdue. It used to be the case that John Lewis would only match prices with shops, not with websites.

This meant the overall value and attraction of its promise was gradually being eroded, as the cheapest prices for pretty much everything are usually only available on the internet.

But guess what? The old version of the promise worked better for electrical items. If you could find a cheap internet site with one tiny shop somewhere in the UK, that was enough to force John Lewis to keep its promise.

For example, I know my brother-in-law (who is one of the savviest people I’ve ever met) would go hunting on the internet for a shop offering the same priced item, then go to John Lewis with proof.

Why did he go to all the hassle of that and buy it from John Lewis, rather than just ordering it online from the cheap internet retailer? Because John Lewis offered a longer warranty.

When warranties don’t apply...

Of course, warranties usually only matter – and apply - to electrical items. For all other items, the promise has been enhanced, as the fact that it now applies to items bought on the internet is a great step forward for consumers.

The advent of smartphone apps like Red Laser makes it even easier to reap the benefits of the ‘Never knowingly undersold’ promise on these items.

 Find anything you want to buy in John Lewis, scan in the barcode using your smartphone and the app will search every site on the internet to see if there is a cheaper price. If there is, show a shop assistant the proof on your phone and hey presto! you can buy it right there and then at the cheaper price.

We tried it ourselves, and it worked.

What do you think?

Although I can understand the reasons John Lewis has changed its terms and conditions, I feel sad that one of the few retailers I genuinely trusted has created this sneaky get-out-clause because it can’t compete in a straightforward way. In my opinion, a price match promise that was once straightforward can no longer be relied upon.

I'd like to publicly call on John Lewis to offer to match the price of the item, plus a third-party extended warranty, so it is a like-for-like sale.

What do you think? Please share your thoughts using the comments box below!

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Comments (28)

  • Innocent Bystander
    Love rating 14
    Innocent Bystander said

    "Why did he go to all the hassle of

    that and buy it from John Lewis, rather than just ordering it online

    from the cheap internet retailer? Because John Lewis offered a longer

    warranty." So he wanted the same product cheaper but with an extra year's warranty at no extra cost? Were any of us to be John Lewis, how would we deal with that situation? Try and make it more fair to them, with their bricks and mortar expenses to deal with, perhaps?

    I do agree that John Lewis, a company set up on an innovative (and so far successful) basis, should make the small print less small, as far as introducing new caveats to the 'never knowingly undersold' promise is concerned, but a customer is paying for a 2 year warranty through John Lewis, not a year through John Lewis then a year through some not necessarily equally good (however you want to quantify/define 'equal') possibly 'no frills' 3rd party warranty, will hopefully be getting a better quality of service (if service is to be needed). Perhaps it should be that John Lewis would price match if an additional year's warranty is taken out through the original vendor. That's more 'like for like'. I can't agree with your call for a year plus an additional year from a 3rd party warranty vendor.

    Also, if you're buying expensive electrical goods, you shouldn't need the extra year's warranty. Check out the Sale of Goods Act. My understanding is that anything fairly expensive is expected to last for about 7 years. You'd be better off, if you want to save your pennies, not hassling John Lewis, or paying out for an extra year's warranty but just buying your product from your cheap shop then, if your purchase goes belly up within a few years, use your rights under Sale of Goods Act to rectify the situation. Saves you money, you still have your consumer rights.

    Report on 08 February 2011  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • thanet04
    Love rating 13
    thanet04 said

    Innocent Bystander, a good reply, but if your item does go wrong within 6 years, it is down to the shop you bought it from, not the manufacturer to sort it out. I know that out of the choice of a cheap shop and John Lewis, who I would put my money on still being there.

    Report on 09 February 2011  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Innocent Bystander
    Love rating 14
    Innocent Bystander said

    Thanet04: I think the manufacturer would still have to repair or replace it, but I couldn't swear to it.

    And yes, John Lewis is more likely to still be there in a few years time, but in order to do that, it has to charge prices that cover its costs. Again I would say that to suggest John Lewis should extend the "Never Knowingly Undersold" promise to cover a 3rd party purchase is not comparing apples and apples. If you could buy a computer bundled with 3 games for one amount and an X Box bundled with 6 games for a slightly greater amount from John Lewis; would you expect to be able to get the computer plus 6 for the same price as the computer plus 3 games bundle, because you could buy the 3 game bundle and then get the other 3 games cheaply from a small shop online? Sure that would have a different barcode, but it's the same principle surely?

    Report on 09 February 2011  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • CannyScot
    Love rating 4
    CannyScot said

    I agree completely with Innocent Bystander. John Lewis are offering a better service not a "like for like" one.

    I always look for the best all round deal, not just the lowest price. If you make price only your criteria then JL are absolutely not being undersold.

    Report on 09 February 2011  |  Love thisLove  1 love
  • richardbattell
    Love rating 2
    richardbattell said

    Buy with a credit card that gives an extra 12 months warranty, and some cards also give cashback.

    Report on 09 February 2011  |  Love thisLove  2 loves
  • barcroft
    Love rating 0
    barcroft said

    I don't thiink this a recent change by John Lewis - I am sure I came across this a couple of years ago when buying a TV.

    In my case I could find the TV at an online retailer for £100 less than JL, but with a 1 year warranty - JL offered 5 years. The internet retailer offered a 4-year extention for the warranty at a cost of £200 - so in true like for like terms it resulted in JL beng 'cheaper'.

    One other thing to lookout for is where a manufacturer makes a store specific model e.g TV 1234/AB for general sale and TV1234/CD for sale only at one retailer such as JL. This means the products are identical, apart from their designation and as such this often means price matching does not apply.   

    Report on 09 February 2011  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • PeterM42
    Love rating 3
    PeterM42 said

    My partner tried buying a washing machine from John Lewis. When delivered, it was so badly damaged they had to take it back. She had so much hassle trying to get John Lewis to replace it, we drove down to one of the "sheds" (Currys or Comet - don't remember which) who put one in the back of my hatchback for us to take home. Price? - as cheap as anywhere else because they do internet price matching, but CHEAPER than John Lewis!

    Report on 09 February 2011  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • ticktock
    Love rating 34
    ticktock said

    Bad headline. The customer has the choice to spend their money where they want. You also choose retailers for their service.

    Your article implies that a month later I could ask for a price match. I always thought that price match only applied on the day of purchase. Why didn't your reader look at all retailers before purchase, maybe they were not concerned at the time.

    It all comes down to; You get what you pay for and, back up service has to be important. And if you are that concerned, John Lewis sells washing machines that have 5 & 10 year warranty. That's what we buy.

    Report on 09 February 2011  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • mikejc29
    Love rating 1
    mikejc29 said

    Typical high street Journalism splitting hairs to create a sensational headline. The majority of comments refering to this article indirectly and or directly reflect this point. Sensationalism is something one would expect from the "Red Tops" not a reputable organisation such as "lovemoney.com"

    Report on 09 February 2011  |  Love thisLove  1 love
  • gavinb
    Love rating 25
    gavinb said

    Innocent Bystander and thanet04, this issue of goods becoming faulty after several years got me interested and as I had a spare hour I had a trawl through whatconsumer.co.uk...

    Sadly, the first thing that struck me was that even though durability has recently become a part of the sale of goods act, the law is extremely, perhaps even bizarrely vague on the subject. (Actually, perhaps not as the EU has been involved).

    First, they quote that within the first six months, faulty goods issues should be addressed to the retailer (fair enough). Then, if the manufacturer has provided a guarantee (not compulsory), after six months contact the manufacturer.

    But then, if, out of warranty you consider your faulty item should have lasted longer you should refer back to the retailer! What a joke, and what an utter minefield. Could you afford the time and money to test this in a civil court? I don't know of anyone who has.

    Report on 09 February 2011  |  Love thisLove  1 love
  • danielrabin
    Love rating 0
    danielrabin said

    I have to say that John Lewis policy has changed dramatically over the past few years.

    You used to be able to go in and tell them about a price match and they would call the retailler and match it. Now it takes 28 days for them to send it to a seperate department.

    They also have a trick of changing the stock name, so that they are the only people to sell an item, eventhough it is identical product. for example the product code would be sony 1234 and they would sell sony 1234a.

    I do not believe they are never knowingly undersold. They def know the market and are often not the cheapest in town.

    Report on 09 February 2011  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • MK22
    Love rating 142
    MK22 said

    Thanet04 & Innocent bystander, the Sale of Goods Act allows you return a faulty item to a RETAILER for replacement/full refund if it has failed and is under 6 monthe old. Over six months old and under six years you can return a faulty item, again to the retailer, for replacement (repair)/partial refund (depends on the length of use you have got from it) if YOU can prove an inherent defect. The Distance Selling Regulations ALSO allow you to return an item for full refund for ANY reason as long as you contact the seller within 7 days from the date you receive the goods. The DSR do NOT apply to personal sales, such as e-Bay, though they would apply to traders who use e-Bay. Guarantees save you the hassle of having to prove inherent defect which might be costly and/or impossible.

    Report on 09 February 2011  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • 007tobs
    Love rating 1
    007tobs said

    Regardless of the retailer offering a one or two year guarantee the goods would have been covered under the sale of goods act. So for that reason how was John Lewis offering a 2 year warranty any better than Argos a one year?

    "For this reason, John Lewis refused to match the reader’s price, citing its new terms and conditions. These state that stores will no longer match a price unless its rival offers the exact same warranty."

    Whoever it was bought from it would have been covered for at least 2 years anyway and as many as 6 for some other electrical items. Argos may say they were only offering a one year warranty but that is only to put customers off returning it because they think they cant return after the 1st year.

     

    Report on 09 February 2011  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • jl
    Love rating 0
    jl said

    I am a fan of John Lewis but my confidence was knocked when shopping in their Nottingham store at Christmas time and bought several items that had large, clearly printed prices on them. When I got to the check out I found that the prices had gone up. Some by 50%. They were small price items e.g. a plastic jug clearly marker at £2.00 and at the till it was £3.00. A huge 50% increase-and it was before VAT went up.

    I felt very let down by John Lewis as I always recommend the store to all and sundry.

    I wrote and complained and had a bland apology letter but no comment as to the huge percentage increase in price.

    Report on 09 February 2011  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • gavinb
    Love rating 25
    gavinb said

    007tobs in theory you may be able to return goods out of warranty but in practice - absolutely no chance!

    Report on 09 February 2011  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • SD
    Love rating 0
    SD said

    A few things here.

    Danielrabin - yes the JL policy has changed a lot over the last few years and has in fact changed even more since February where its even more customer friendly.

    jl- this is dissapointing and in fact illegal as by rights, as a retailer, you are not allowed to sell goods at a higher price than is displayed, so it must have just been a genuine error on their behalf. And in fact I have been at the other end of the spectrum where I have bought something and been told the price in fact cheaper than being displayed and they put it through at the lower price.  Also JL did not raise prices because of the Vat increase until well into January, reported on in a variety of newspapers, and in some areas are still taking a hit on the Vat in order to remain never knowingly undersold.

    With regards to the sale of goods act, yes this does apply but have you ever been in a situation where you have had to argue with a store manager and then be on the phone with their head office for over an hour in order to try and find someone who actually has knowledge of this act? Ignorance is bliss and this is exactly why most retailers hide behind this fact as a normal shop floor employee, unless they are studying law, does not know about the act you stand and quote at them but rather sticks to the Terms and Conditions guidelines they have been trained to preach to us consumers. Trust me its a nightmare as I have been in that situation with a leading high street mobile phone company whose phone broke 2 days over the 28 day "bring it back and we will swap it for a better one" guarantee.

    So to be able to go into John Lewis and have the knowledge that they offer a no quible guarantee where they will replace the item or at least send out someone to look at the item, thus saving me from the typical "Did you read our small print where we dont stick to the guarantee in months ending in the letter Y or R" response from some 3rd party guarantee when I want to make a claim.

    So if you can find a better deal then by all means go for it but for me I would rather buy a JL TV and get my free 5 year guarantee or a toaster with a 2 yr guarantee safe in the knowledge that any problems I have will be sorted and that customer service, often severely lacking in other retailers, will be at the forefront of the partner serving me.

      

    Report on 09 February 2011  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • MrRee
    Love rating 65
    MrRee said

    John Lewis is simply asking to be allowed to compare apples with apples - most people would say that was fair. But, it needs to be lifted out of the Small Print - to avoid John Lewis sinking to the tricks of the DSGi Group (Dixons, CURRYS, Pixmania and PCWorld).

    I bought a TV from CURRYS - it had a fault from day 1 - CURRYS refused to fix it - I took them to court and won. I would have happily paid TWICE the price from John Lewis and been treated 500% better!

    It's up to the buyer to find the best deal to suit them ... I'm fed up to the back teeth with people not standing up and being accountabkle for their own actions!!

    Steps down off soapbox and takes a relaxing cup of tea!

    Report on 09 February 2011  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • Louise   Read
    Love rating 5
    Louise Read said

    For unknown reasons, I'm only one of the hundreds of people walking in daily at John Lewis, Oxford Street, I've had endless problems in the last three years since    I bought 1. a radio ( delivered without antenna. Bought a new one. Easier this way.) 2.  A TV which had to be replaced within three months. 3. A Toshiba laptop which after a year of dealings which got more and more acrimonious was finally replaced six weeks ago.  Tomorrow, a third  engineer from John Lewis will call to see what's gone wrong. Yet again. Why? I would love to know.  As for their technical services. Answering emails could help to better services and improved PR. Has anyone had similar experience? My friends are laughing at me. I'm losing my sense of humor. Louise Read

    Report on 09 February 2011  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • gardener
    Love rating 25
    gardener said

    I have been to John Lewis once and I shall never repeat the experience; it was overcrowded, overpriced, and lots of very snooty staff. Eventhough I came in to buy a very specific item, I turned around and walked out again. I have never felt so uncomfortable and unwelcome in any shop. The staff was outrageously condescending towards customers and I think they may have done well to remember that the customers pay their wages.

    Report on 09 February 2011  |  Love thisLove  1 love
  • MrRee
    Love rating 65
    MrRee said

    Ha Ha Ha Ha .............. not until you have felt the mighty weight of the Dixons Group of Companies (Dixons, CURRYS, PixMania and PCWorld) on your shoulders can you even come close to the understanding of the term "Disgraceful Customer Service".

    It is well documented elsewhere, so I will not labour the point, but - come on ... we all know that John Lewis are a League above the Also-Rans!!

    Report on 09 February 2011  |  Love thisLove  2 loves
  • scottyb103
    Love rating 1
    scottyb103 said

    I used to love John Lewis but the internet killed them stone dead. I was looking for a hoover among other and having seen the one I wanted online I wanted a look at it. I took a print of the item I was interested in and having had a look at it I asked if they would match the price on my print out (I hadn't even looked for the cheapest online price). I was then treated like a leper after being told rather sniffily that the online retailer wasn't close enough (ie within an 8 mile radius) to the store I was stood in to qualify for the price match! I asked if "never knowingly undersold" actually meant "never knowing undersold except when we are by the internet or any other shop who are more than a 10 minute drive away". So, not only did they lose the sale of the £120 hoover, but also the sale of a £160 Gaggia coffee machine, a £120 printer and a £15 tie I fancied. That's fairly shoddy business I'd have thought, and I don't even check their prices for anything online any more. As a footnote I sourced the items I left at the till from the web (except the tie - shame about that cos it was nice) and spent £363 instead of £400 (and yes £363 included one £5 delivery charge). I'll be saving myself some diesel in future as well. The internet tends not to look at me as though I've done a wee on their children either, so it's a winner all round...

    Report on 09 February 2011  |  Love thisLove  1 love
  • NS0110
    Love rating 0
    NS0110 said

    I asked JLewis to price match an item. Was told it would be checked "independently" within 24hrs and, if agreed, I could come back into the store to 'claim' my refund of the difference (that, in itself, is not very convenient for most people). One week later I emailed a complaint, because I hadn't been contacted, and a VERY condescending "customer service" representative called me to say they wouldn't price match because the item was out of stock at the local rival store. I explained it was in stock at the rivals on-line store and I could have it delivered for free. JLewis still wouldn't price match. So I bought it from the rival store whilst I was still talking to JLewis customer service on the phone. It was delivered 2 days later - and I returned my original purchase to JLewis for a full refund. It was a pain in the neck - but there was a principle involved. If they are advertising "never knowingly undersold" then they should stick to it. I wouldn't even bother with them in future. 

    Report on 09 February 2011  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • petitemisschief
    Love rating 22
    petitemisschief said

    I always find the service inJohn Lewis excellent and sometimes that worth more than a few pound saving somewhere else and being faced with a call centre when something goes wrong. John Lewis is bucking the market at the moment which surely says it all.

    Report on 09 February 2011  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • seza
    Love rating 0
    seza said

    I just want to say how good argos was to me when my kettle broke after only a couple of months. I had bought it when I moved into my first house and had managed to misplace the receipt(found a few weeks later), it was an argos brand so there was no doubt that it was bought from argos but there was no proof of when I bought it but they still exchange it for a new one with no quibbles. I have never bought any goods from John Lewis as I have managed to get other companies to match or be less because of the warranty as I personally don't want to deal with John Lewis after my friend worked there and the stories she told me of her working day.

    Report on 09 February 2011  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • DaveF
    Love rating 1
    DaveF said

    The two warranties actually *are* identical: Argos and John Lewis are both required (by EU regulation 1999/44/EC) to provide a two year guarantee for any consumer goods that they sell.

    Report on 10 February 2011  |  Love thisLove  1 love
  • MG
    Love rating 0
    MG said

    Bottom line, do your research and see what suits you best. I bought a 52" TV a year ago. Exact same model at JL was literally £450 more expensive than Costco, who also offered (and still do) a 5 year warranty, for free and as standard, on all their electricals. No prizes for guessing who got my business :)

    Report on 10 February 2011  |  Love thisLove  0 loves
  • rckleung
    Love rating 9
    rckleung said

    John Lewis are basically finding ways to back out of their price promises!

    They offer 2, 3 or 5 year warranty for FREE which means it SHOULD NOT be included in a price comparison!

    Report on 11 February 2011  |  Love thisLove  1 love
  • Steviebaby1959
    Love rating 28
    Steviebaby1959 said

    I've always personally thought that JL's motto was a bit of a scam, surely, it is the product that is being purchased, not a warranty, of which DaveF is quite correct in stating that EU Law dictates that all consumer goods must have at least a 2 year coverage as standard, however, it appears that every major company in this country is hiding behind legal loopholes and uncertainties in selling practices and advertising claims, they also have a plethora of legal adversaries who often sail very close to the wind with their advise, and companies are very aware that only a few of us are savvy enough to know the law when we are in the store, and as is often the case, who wants to waste an hour, or, two, arguing with managers at the counter who obviously don't want to know what legal rights you, as consumers, have, they just want your cash.

    It's funny, that after reading the Directive (EU regulation 1999/44/EC), the last sentence states - Only the Courts can decide what the law means and expert legal advice should be always be taken if difficulties arise.

    So, you pays your money, you takes your chance, and the Courts might not find in your favour anyway, at the end of the day.

    Report on 28 February 2011  |  Love thisLove  0 loves

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